Brexit - merged threads

[pinfireman]

5 hours ago, chrisjpainter said:

Yes, but that's the problem, isn't it? What does 'Leave the EU' mean? And the reality is that it means different things to different people. It was a black and white vote on a subject that was never black and white. The deal May's put together delivers on some elements of brexit that will appeal to some leave voters: It ends free movement of people, it brings control of our laws back to the UK and it should deliver more protection for fishing. 

It's not the clean break that the No-dealers want, of course, but then not all voters were no dealers anyway! 

If there was a poll done on No-Deal brexit vs any other opinion, No Deal would almost certainly lose - and I think it would have lost on the first vote as well. But the millions who voted on the basis of the things this deal delivers are enough to make a majority for leaving vs staying. 

Whilst we're on mythical polls, the other one I'd like to see is 'IF the EU returned to its original set up that was almost entirely about trade, would the you vote in or out?' Free movement, the ECJ, the relentless low level corruption and the dopey notion that Poland's farming should be run in the same way as Ireland's despite their being 1000 miles between them, completely different weather conditions, wildlife, culture and infrastructure  have rather muddied the economic principles!

If, as you declare, you voted LEAVE (which I have to admit I,m beginning to doubt)  you had NO reason to expect anything but a complete LEAVE, if LEAVE won! Now you say,  that all Leave voters were not No Dealers! I,m sorry, but No Deal, May,s Deal or uncle Tom Cobbleys deal was NOT on the ballot !  We expected to LEAVE,  without a begging bowl!

[matone]

3 minutes ago, pinfireman said:

If, as you declare, you voted LEAVE (which I have to admit I,m beginning to doubt)  you had NO reason to expect anything but a complete LEAVE, if LEAVE won! Now you say,  that all Leave voters were not No Dealers! I,m sorry, but No Deal, May,s Deal or uncle Tom Cobbleys deal was NOT on the ballot !  We expected to LEAVE,  without a begging bowl!

I don`t understand all this retro qualification nonsense ...the vote was for LEAVE ,nothing more complicated than that ...

[ratchers]

Theresa May not standing as leader in the next general election.

So she will be getting us in to a load of do dah and then leaving a sinking ship saying its not my fault.

I think she and a lot of other MP's should be on that boat and sail to Russia as they dont obviously believe in democracy and the will of the British people.

She can take Corbyn as well.

[ShootingEgg]

So the definition of leave... 

depart from, go away from, go from, withdraw from, retire from, take oneself off from, exit from, take one's leave of, pull out of, quit, be gone from, decamp from, disappear from, abandon, vacate, absent oneself from, evacuate; 

 

Any one see chat for two years and do a dodgy deal in That definition?? 

[12gauge82]

5 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Basic rule No 1 , Keep the trough full at all times.
                   No 2 Do as we say , or else !
                   No 3 All other rules we will make up as we go along, you will not get a say in this.

Four freedoms.
You will have to let everyone into your country whether you want them or not, we will assign you 3 rd world 'refugees' that we have invited over to dilute your gene pool, this is non negotiable.
Free movement of goods, depends on whether you are competitive in a given market, if you are , and are not called Germany or France , you will be coerced into shutting down that market 'for the greater good'
Free movement of capital allows all our dirty money from within and without the EU to be untraceable and un accountable.
Freedom of services is a work in progress and the British have far too much clout in this area, we will move to extinguish this unfair advantage using Brexit as a means.

Here endeth the lesson.

Yes, thanks for expanding my point 👍

[poontang]

6 hours ago, Retsdon said:

As I understand May's deal, Britain is going to leave the EU. However, in the meantime the country requires access to the EU's single market and so will inevitably be bound to adhere to the rules that govern that single market. It's not rocket science. The outcome of any negotiation depends on the balance of power between the two parties, and Britain never, ever had sufficient negotiating muscle that it could force the EU into tearing up its own rule book. 

Any country can have access to the single market (as long as there are no trade sanctions in place) without being a member of the EU.

The US, China, Russia, India and dozens of others all have access to the single market yet are not tied to the rules. Yes, they may be subject to tariffs, but equally EU member states are subject to similar tariffs when exporting to these 'third countries'. 

[12gauge82]

11 minutes ago, poontang said:

Any country can have access to the single market (as long as there are no trade sanctions in place) without being a member of the EU.

The US, China, Russia, India and dozens of others all have access to the single market yet are not tied to the rules. Yes, they may be subject to tariffs, but equally EU member states are subject to similar tariffs when exporting to these 'third countries'. 

Spot on, it's the customs union that is more tricky, but who says we need to be a part of either, if the EU won't be sensible, we'll just trade under WTO rules, it's all a farce to ensure we are stuck in the EU forevermore.

[Dave-G]

11 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Spot on, it's the customs union that is more tricky, but who says we need to be a part of either, if the EU won't be sensible, we'll just trade under WTO rules, it's all a farce to ensure we are stuck in the EU forevermore.

Can't beieve so many people want to become citizens of United States of Europe. Those who don't see whats happening need to be shown.

 

[12gauge82]

7 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

Can't beieve so many people want to become citizens of United States of Europe. Those who don't see whats happening need to be shown.

 

Agreed mate, it baffles me to, if we were to sign a trade deal with another trading block under the same terms as the EU it'd never get signed off, it'd be laughed out of town, the only reason we're in the position we're in with the EU is because we were tricked into this position very slowly, in a drip drip effect and it's just people don't like change, if we leave on WTO terms, given a year or two, I doubt there'd be many left saying we should rejoin the EU.

[sportsbob]

13 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

Can't beieve so many people want to become citizens of United States of Europe. Those who don't see whats happening need to be shown.

 

Or emigrate 😁 and leave the UK to the rest of us who want it to be GREAT BRITAIN once again.

Edited December 13, 2018 by sportsbob

[old man]

12 minutes ago, sportsbob said:

Or emigrate 😁 and leave the UK to the rest of us who want it to be GREAT BRITAIN once again.

Great Brittain is what the euro zone burghers will fight tooth and nail to prevent, total subjugation is the name of their aim?

[12gauge82]

18 minutes ago, old man said:

Great Brittain is what the euro zone burghers will fight tooth and nail to prevent, total subjugation is the name of their aim?

Quite right, with their ever closer union objectives.

[das]

8 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

+1

+10

[JohnfromUK]

9 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Quite right, with their ever closer union objectives.

Thought we were on Corbyn for a moment - as I misread as "ever closer to the unions"  🤣

[das]

48 minutes ago, sportsbob said:

Or emigrate 😁 and leave the UK to the rest of us who want it to be GREAT BRITAIN once again.

Emigrate where? No good country of any quality would want us.

[sportsbob]

21 minutes ago, das said:

Emigrate where? No good country of any quality would want us.

No the remoaners need to emigrate to Bulgaria,  Poland, Latvia, Romania or anywhere they can't come back from 

 

[pinfireman]

9 hours ago, Rewulf said:

What an excellent idea !
Seems very fair to me , have an in / out EU referendum vote once a year, with an instant implementation of the vote.
Whilst we are at it, a general election on the same ballot paper, and local council elections too, saving paper in the process, we could even use our red buttons on the TV remote too.
Keeps everyone happy 'at the time'
Or do you think every 6 months would be better 🙂

Agreed too , the people that voted leave wanted to leave , and the people that voted stay, wanted to stay ! Simple really .

I think Chris' locality gives the game away...heavily pro-remain?

10 hours ago, panoma1 said:

The people have spoken, the referendum was leave or remain, the electorate voted to leave! The remainers in Westminster aided by the Media, business and those with a personal vested interest have poisoned the water and carried out a relentless, negative, project fear campaign to soften the electorate up, now they want to give us another referendum, confident their spoiling tactics have scared the public into overturning Brexit.......any second referendum authorised by Westminster is, in my opinion, plainly an attempt by remainer politicians to rob the country's electorate of their democratic decision! That is To leave the EU.

Absolutely true!

9 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

You have touched on one reason why I believe the whole EU concept of 'single market', common rules etc. can never work.  If you take the whole EU;

• There are vastly different climates and geographies.
• (As a result) there are vastly different agricultural opportunities, wildlife, flora and forestry.
• Different areas have different natural resources (oil, coal, gas, fish, minerals etc.)
• There are therefore different job opportunities and skill requirements
• There are completely different economic, cultural and social aspirations.  (the Greek idea of an economy isn't the same as a German's)

It was for these reasons that I thought it right that we never joined the single currency.  (I bet the Greeks, Portuguese and others wished they hadn't either).

People say it works OK in the USA, but of course it doesn't.  The USA has a lot of local laws/taxes by state - and huge economic inequality.  It also has vast debts a huge immigration problem, poor social integration and a dreadful fossil energy dependency, not to mention huge urban dereliction/deprivation in some parts and a massive health funding and drug problem.

True! and the USA arrived at that point after amost 300 years of "integration!"

[pinfireman]

9 hours ago, Retsdon said:

As I understand May's deal, Britain is going to leave the EU. However, in the meantime the country requires access to the EU's single market and so will inevitably be bound to adhere to the rules that govern that single market. It's not rocket science. The outcome of any negotiation depends on the balance of power between the two parties, and Britain never, ever had sufficient negotiating muscle that it could force the EU into tearing up its own rule book. 

As you understand it?  May,s deal will tie us to the EU forever! We would be unable to complete Brexit without their permission!  And still under the European Court!

[armsid]

we voted to leave the EU the first vote since 1975 (other countries had votes on different treaties,we did not} and gave the message by a majority to LEAVE.but all we hear is we need the single market and free movement why? The remoaners go on about jobs, hang on   i was an apprentice at morris engines in Coventry after the vote to join the common market jobs were lost to europe and coventry and other manufacturing cities making all sorts of goods started to decline what did the govn.t off all colours do ? nothing. no panic as there is now.As vince green said ealier we were net positive on debt look at us now This is what the EU bosses want us in negative equity for EVER . I cannot get ajob in france why? the gov actively encourage french jobs for french people unlike here  

[McSpredder]

39 minutes ago, armsid said:

..... i was an apprentice at morris engines in Coventry after the vote to join the common market.....

Yes, I remember our school teachers in the early 1960s explaining how wonderful it would be if we were to join the Common Market;  Britain’s highly efficient agricultural industry might come under some pressure due to cheap food imports from all those backward peasant farmers on the Continent, but French, Germans and Italian customers would be queuing up to buy cars from BMC, Rootes, Vauxhall, etc, and our motor industry would benefit tremendously.     

“Dad, I fink I got it wrong again.”

[Vince Green]

5 hours ago, poontang said:

Any country can have access to the single market (as long as there are no trade sanctions in place) without being a member of the EU.

The US, China, Russia, India and dozens of others all have access to the single market yet are not tied to the rules. Yes, they may be subject to tariffs, but equally EU member states are subject to similar tariffs when exporting to these 'third countries'. 

The single market does not benefit Britain, true it definitely does benefit some British exporters, but as a nation our trade with the EU is around £70-100 Billion ADVERSE. The single market only benefits the seller, by exactly the same amount it disadvantages the buyer -us!

What point is there in tariff free trading when we are buying more than we sell???? You have to be really thick (or Nick Clegg)  not to see that.

When we joined the (then) EEC we were selling a lot more than we bought but that has been eroded year on year. We give away about £40 billion worth of our fish to French Spanish, Dutch and Irish trawlers who are perfectly entitled to just come in and help themselves. Do they stick to their quotas? Do me a favour, don't even ask. And that fish is invisible on the trade figures because they just come in and take it, and almost certainly a lot more besides. So the true figure adverse is maybe double the official figure.

German steel is illegally subsidised and our steel industry has gone down the pan, funny that!  Can we stop the Germans selling their steel in the UK? No we cant

Spanish farmers massively over claim agricultural subsidies then grow food like tomatoes, cucumbers, lettuces, that they cant sell so they dump it in uk. France and Germany won't let them do it, we do, silly us! but hundreds of small Cornish farmers who grew salad crops under glass went bankrupt in the process. How can a Spanish farmer grow a cucumber, sell it to a shipping company who drives it Britain, sells it to a supermarket chain who then distributes it through their branches and sell it for 50p?

You have to realise that can't happen in the real world, that's not a real world price for a cucumber. OK Mrs Jones gets a cheap cucumber to slice into her husband's sandwiches but down in Cornwall several hundred farmers are living on the dole and their kids are getting free school dinners. Is that cheap cucumber worth the human tragedy?    

Edited December 13, 2018 by Vince Green

[yod dropper]

BBC Question Time

6th December. Main topic: Brexit. 

1 Leaver. 4 Remainers.

13th December. Main topic. Brexit. 

1 Leaver. 4 Remainers.

Make of that what you will.

[Good shot?]

It was stated in a previous post that TM,s deal It “ends free movement of people, it brings control of our laws back to the UK and sorts our fishing”

Another falsehood as it does none of this. It is merely a statement of intent and in no way delivers any of the above.

Remoaner lies and deceit again IMO..

Edited December 14, 2018 by Good shot?
Spell

[ShootingEgg]

6 hours ago, yod dropper said:

BBC Question Time

6th December. Main topic: Brexit. 

1 Leaver. 4 Remainers.

13th December. Main topic. Brexit. 

1 Leaver. 4 Remainers.

Make of that what you will.

Since tye vote, its been 4-1. Not just those two dates. 

Oh and the EU have unsurprisingly said no to changing its stance. Time to just walk away i think. 

 

[Retsdon]

13 hours ago, poontang said:

Any country can have access to the single market (as long as there are no trade sanctions in place) without being a member of the EU.

The US, China, Russia, India and dozens of others all have access to the single market yet are not tied to the rules. Yes, they may be subject to tariffs, but equally EU member states are subject to similar tariffs when exporting to these 'third countries'. 

https://ec.europa.eu/info/brexit/brexit-preparedness/preparedness-notices_en

There's access and there's access. Take any of the businesses listed in the EUs 'Notice to Stakeholders' in the link above, read the differences between being a member of the single market and a 'third country' under EU law, then come back and say it will be perfectly fine to assume the status of India.