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2 minutes ago, oowee said:

Where are you re the NI border? 'take back control over our borders such that WE have control over who comes in to work/live'

There would have to be 'a border' between NI and Eire (not NI and UK mainland).  But there is now in that we have different police forces (that are not 'cross border', different VAT rates, taxation schemes ...... there is quite a long list.

I think immigration should be implemented only as proved necessary, the reasoning (as someone else pointed out earlier in this thread) is that migrants into the EU are (well should be) stopped in the first country of entry - and it is very unlikely that via Eire would become a major route into the UK for non EU citizens.  For EU citizens, I hope that we would retain good relations are largely free movement of people who are taking jobs - as now, but have the ability to control it to cope with employment needs and availability.  Many customs paperwork/transactions would be done electronically from exporters factory/warehouse to importers factory/warehouse- much as is done in many areas now.  We currently manage to do this across the border with the different VAT and Excise duty rates.

If the EU/Eire wish to implement a hard border with lots of delays, controls etc., that would be for them on their side of the border, but Eire has very clearly indicated that they do not want that.

10 minutes ago, oowee said:

Not sure what has been said re NI border in the event of no deal.

I think rather as above.

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51 minutes ago, oowee said:

I am happy to stick to the wording of the ballot paper rather than what some interpret as the implication of the process.

It would be good if the majority of our MPs stuck to the peoples choice on the wording of the ballot paper.

Labour are in an unenviable position where as their divine leader, needs to leave the controls of the EU so he can enact the measures he desires for his imaginary socialist government.
Whilst a lot of his voter base are either the nut munching academia liberals, or the immigrants labour imported 20 years ago.
These, the core of the remainers, make it a rock and a hard place for JC
.
(The remain campaign and labour itself played the 'rise of the far right' card extensively during and after the Ref.
Labour itself created the spectre of the far right bogeyman by its policies back then, and by its weird 'right on' PC stance now.
It then uses these spectres to threaten and cajole people into thinking the nazis are returning.
Socialist/lefty policies created them, but socialist policies can deal with/remove them ? Sounds legit !)

So CC and his vote of no confidence ?
Where is it going to go, an election, that with labours current policy on Brexit , they cant possibly win ?
He cant really play the student card twice can he ?

But the real tragedy  , is that most of Westminster, the people WE  employ, have lost sight of their job description, to serve the electorates interests via majority vote.
Not argue about conscience, or what THEY think is best.
Not try to use the uncertainty and division THEY created, to further their own ambitions and use it to take power, a power to further THEIR agenda.
Its about time politicians stopped trying to interpret THEIR dreams, as being the dreams of the people who voted them in.
They need to get back in touch with the people , rather than worrying about getting back into power.
 

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Eurotunnel have put out a press release in reaction to May’s defeat last night, confirming that “with or without a deal, traffic flow through the Tunnel will be maintained”. A far cry from the scare stories being put around by politicians…

Eurotunnel have been steadily “preparing for all outcomes” for the past two years “to ensure that new post-Brexit border controls will have no significant impact on Tunnel traffic”, noting that truck traffic has increased fourfold since the Tunnel opened in 1994 despite the number of lorry controls increasing from three to eight over that period. The Government could take a leaf out of Eurotunnel’s book on how to prepare *calmly* for all possible outcomes…

This morning on the Today Programme, John McDonnell was asked if the opposition would call repeated motions of no confidence, to which he gave the clear response “no, we’re not doing that.”

Half an hour later on Talk Radio, however, he suggested that if Labour lose today’s motion of no confidence, “we’ll look again at what the staging is for the next no confidence motion”, and then explicitly confirmed he is not ruling out repeated motions of no confidence: “of course not!”

You know your party’s divided when even the Shadow Chancellor can’t agree with himself…

Even IRA Johnny is bemused by it all.................

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Do you remember when Downing Street briefed the media that the defeat of the meaningful vote would produce a “TARP Moment”, and that markets crashing would push panicking MPs to vote for the PM’s deal the second time round? Just as the US congress agreed the bail-out only after markets crashed in a second vote. The theory was that the pound and equities would slide as investors priced in the likelihood of Britain leaving the European Union without a deal in March 2019. Scared of being blamed, rebel MPs would fall into line. Sterling finished the day where it started and if firm this morning, the FTSE 100 is basically flat as well. So much for Downing Street’s insight into market dynamics.

Market players clearly now expect a softer Brexit. Which suggests Downing Street has totally failed to convince observers to believe that a WTO terms Brexit is really a likely outcome…

11 hours ago, yod dropper said:

I was delighted to hear Alistair Campbell say that May's deal was not really Brexit and not what was voted for in stark contrast to the provocative comments I continually read on here. We knew what we meant, pseudo-mind-readers who say they know what other people think or thought are often disingenuous or just charlatans.

Strange from Campbell, an Arch-Remoaner!

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3 hours ago, oowee said:

 leave is accepted across the house with one or two exceptions. Rather than no majority for leave there is no clarity on Brexit. 

Then why don,t MPs with heavily pro-Leave constituencies do as the electorate asked?  That is, to LEAVE! Completely!

2 hours ago, oowee said:

John you answered your own point in the penultimate sentance.

Overall Starmers 6 tests were cynically designed to ensure that Labour could never be called on to back the government because they could always refer back to these tests ......

You might not like it but even labour accept out of EU membership. There is no clarity for Brexit.

Labour DO NOT accept out!  Words, and actions are two different things! 

2 hours ago, oowee said:

I think we can agree to disagree as I am happy to stick to the wording of the ballot paper rather than what some interpret as the implication of the process. 

Either way it will be an interesting next few days. I cannot see an easy consensus given Labours tests being perceived by some as even less Brexit than Mays deal. 

 

If you are "happy" to stick to the wording, then surely LEAVE means just that, completely OUT!

1 hour ago, panoma1 said:

Blowing the chaff away, the UK voted leave in the referendum they didn't vote for any deal!............the search for a 'deal' is a ruse manufactured by the politicians in order to muddy the waters and stop Brexit!

TRUE!

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1 hour ago, oowee said:

Yep thats well and truly out. Only thing further would be widening the channel (take it off the french side) and closing the chunnel :lol:

Where are you re the NI border? 'take back control over our borders such that WE have control over who comes in to work/live'

Not sure what has been said re NI border in the event of no deal. 

Re: the NI border................there is already unrest in Ireland over the control from Brussels. If the Southern Irish see that it could be  financially good for them to Leave, they will!  

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11 minutes ago, pinfireman said:

Then why don,t MPs with heavily pro-Leave constituencies do as the electorate asked? 

Because one of those "one or two exceptions" is (almost) the whole Labour party!  Comrade Corbyn is playing a game - in which he is actually really a pawn;

  • Labours 'official' leave position is the "Six Tests of Starmer" - most people would consider anything that meets these as firmly Remain.
  • Corbyn has always been anti EU, but his whole Parliamentary career he has been 'anti' almost everything.  He's really just an old age lefty anti establishment career protester.
  • He opposes May's deal because his masters (McDonnell, McLusky etc.) need him (as a puppet) in No 10 to carry out their agenda of Marxist economics to steal from the so called rich and create a vast state dependant society of the poor - to ensure a permanent Labour majority.
  • The reality is that May's so called deal is actually much closer to meeting the "Six Tests of Starmer" than most people want ........ but the official Labour position is that May's deal is too 'hard' because it leaves the Customs Union and Single Market.

The Parliamentary balance on Brexit is that (working from the 'Leave' side):

  • For a WTO 'no deal' type leave we have the ERG, JRM, Boris etc. - Roughly 120 votes
  • For somewhere 'harder' than May's deal especially on the backstop - 10 DUP
  • For a May style deal - roughly 200 inc 3 Labour rebels, 3 independents
  • For a Starmer 'official Labour' whipped to oppose - (though quite a few support a Brexit of some meaningful sort, but followed the whips) - about 250 - all Labour
  • For no Leave at all - a few Tory rebels (Soubery, Grieve, Clarke) plus roughly 55 LibDem, SNP, Green, independants

The problem is (exactly like this Forum!) some will only vote for a WTO type leave, and some will only vote for a Starmer/BRINO type leave, some will not vote for any leave.  Some (mainly Labour) will always follow their party whips ....... because they hope that will get 'their man' into Downing Street.

I have made clear what I believe Leave means in an earlier post - and to me Starmer's "Six Tests" are REMAIN not LEAVE.

 

 

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I despair of the idiots who clamour for a second referendum, as we have effectively already had it. Following the Referendum, both parties included honouring the Brexit vote in their manifestos, at the last election. Therefore, the electorate have voted twice - to leave. It would need another three votes - all remain - to trump that.

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14 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

both parties included honouring the Brexit vote in their manifestos

This is where labour are on their really dodgy ground.
They have stated repeatedly now , ALL options are on the table, including cancelling article 50 and therefore, remaining.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45622161

When they use this level of doublespeak though, what they really mean is , remain is our primary goal.
Watch most labour MPs squirm when this truth is put to them.

Thats why the much vaunted 6 tests are unattainable , revealing the fall back remain option.
But labour are veterans of the broken election/manifesto  promise.

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So it looks now subject to a minor issue of no confidence that Laura Kuenssberg was right a move towards cross bench consensus discussions. Does that mean customs union will be in. Labour goes for another confidence vote and ERG vote with them or abstain. 

Edited by oowee
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1 minute ago, JohnfromUK said:

ERG know that with a Labour administration, we will definitely be in customs union, so they are not likely to do that.

Even if the joint working group goes with a customs union? 

If that happens and they did not block the no confidence vote then their best option for Brexit would have past last night. 

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2 minutes ago, oowee said:

Even if the joint working group goes with a customs union?

Yes - as Boris said this morning, he will support the present government today because Corbyn would be worse.  That is still true.  Also remember that what is being voted on now is only the 2 year interim transition deal, NOT final Brexit

Edited by JohnfromUK
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2 hours ago, Gordon R said:

I despair of the idiots who clamour for a second referendum, as we have effectively already had it. Following the Referendum, both parties included honouring the Brexit vote in their manifestos, at the last election. Therefore, the electorate have voted twice - to leave. It would need another three votes - all remain - to trump that.

Yes, but the new argument for a second referendum is that the original votes were taken so long ago (who's can-kicking fault is that Members of Parliament?) that a new generation of voters, denied a vote last time and having a different opinion to the old fuddy-duddies that voted last time, would provide a fresh 'snapshot' of the countries 'will' (in the hope that there will be a different outcome - one that MP's favour).

If you still think it isn't all a con, I cannot help you.

Edited by mick miller
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2 minutes ago, mick miller said:

Yes, but the new argument for a second referendum is that the original votes were taken so long ago

Thats why the 2 year rule for article 50 was written in.
2 years is a long time in politics, time for mood to change, deals to be done, cans to be kicked...and an excuse to say at the end of the whole exasperating term, that the people might have changed their mind, lets vote again.

If anyone is in any doubt that the EU is a club you are not supposed to leave, they need to get a grip of reality.
Last time I checked, being a member of something was optional.

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On 15/01/2019 at 13:31, oowee said:

Sorry lads I was busy getting my shooting in. I have to get as many Roe does out to Germany as soon as possible before the door shuts. 

You and I both know it delivers on the referendum. It's those trying to embellish the deal that are putting Brexit at risk and more importantly fueling hope for Corbyn.

Lucky that Government gets to vote on the deal 🙂 Remind me where did the option of a meaningful vote come from?

 

I once had the privilege of a private dinner with Tony Benn where he very kindly gave me a signed copy of his book 'Dare To Be A Daniel' (which of course i declared). He insisted on recording all his meetings including our dinner but what a fascinating man. The people that he had met through the cold war and his thoughts on government had me riveted from start to finish. Clearly he had missed the point of Brussels. 

I don't think he missed the point of Brussels, just thought it irrelevant?

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4 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

Because one of those "one or two exceptions" is (almost) the whole Labour party!  Comrade Corbyn is playing a game - in which he is actually really a pawn;

  • Labours 'official' leave position is the "Six Tests of Starmer" - most people would consider anything that meets these as firmly Remain.
  • Corbyn has always been anti EU, but his whole Parliamentary career he has been 'anti' almost everything.  He's really just an old age lefty anti establishment career protester.
  • He opposes May's deal because his masters (McDonnell, McLusky etc.) need him (as a puppet) in No 10 to carry out their agenda of Marxist economics to steal from the so called rich and create a vast state dependant society of the poor - to ensure a permanent Labour majority.
  • The reality is that May's so called deal is actually much closer to meeting the "Six Tests of Starmer" than most people want ........ but the official Labour position is that May's deal is too 'hard' because it leaves the Customs Union and Single Market.

The Parliamentary balance on Brexit is that (working from the 'Leave' side):

  • For a WTO 'no deal' type leave we have the ERG, JRM, Boris etc. - Roughly 120 votes
  • For somewhere 'harder' than May's deal especially on the backstop - 10 DUP
  • For a May style deal - roughly 200 inc 3 Labour rebels, 3 independents
  • For a Starmer 'official Labour' whipped to oppose - (though quite a few support a Brexit of some meaningful sort, but followed the whips) - about 250 - all Labour
  • For no Leave at all - a few Tory rebels (Soubery, Grieve, Clarke) plus roughly 55 LibDem, SNP, Green, independants

The problem is (exactly like this Forum!) some will only vote for a WTO type leave, and some will only vote for a Starmer/BRINO type leave, some will not vote for any leave.  Some (mainly Labour) will always follow their party whips ....... because they hope that will get 'their man' into Downing Street.

I have made clear what I believe Leave means in an earlier post - and to me Starmer's "Six Tests" are REMAIN not LEAVE.

 

 

CORRECT!

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I have watched (I don't normally bother, but it has been cold and rainy - well that is my excuse) some of the debate in Parliament today - I was struck particularly by;

  1. How badly Corbyn performed.  As someone said yesterday, he's just nasty and 'shouty'.  In fact he got so shouty that I presume he uses a good brand of dental adhesive - as it seemed as though his teeth might fly out and bite Mrs May!  He repeats every sentence, fumbles with his notes and appears to loose his place, almost jumps up and down in his efforts ro shout louder and was bad tempered in taking questions and interruptions.  He failed to answer any of the questions.  In particular he didn't answer what Labours position on Brexit now was or whether they would support a "Peoples Vote".  He implied that had Labour been in power - Brexit would have been accomplished without difficulty.  He did not look like a leader, he looked like a liar.
  2. How well Mrs May actually performed.  Things must have been very tough over the last few days but she was composed, her delivery was varied in tone, confident, relaxed, professional and fairly free from stumbles - which is doing OK considering the pressure she must be under.  She took questions and interruptions freely politely and with good humour even managing a sort of joke or two.  She gave answers - sometimes honestly, such as acknowledging yesterdays disastrous defeat, party splits etc.  She took questions from both supporters, detractors (in her own party inc. Soubery and Ken Clarke), and joked with the ERG leader about being in agreement at least over the poor prospects under Labour - and he assured her of the support of "every ERG member" today.  She also took questions from Labour and gave answers - which weren't always what they wanted to hear.  She claims clearly she still intends to deliver Brexit - and on 29th March.  She was clear she won't support either a peoples vote or extend or revoke article 50.  She admitted it is going to be hard to achieve.

Of course I don't agree with her version of Brexit - especially the backstop, but remember that this is only the 'transition' period deal.  Going forward - out of the two above - she stood head and shoulders above Comrade Corbyn

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3 hours ago, Gordon R said:

I despair of the idiots who clamour for a second referendum, as we have effectively already had it. Following the Referendum, both parties included honouring the Brexit vote in their manifestos, at the last election. Therefore, the electorate have voted twice - to leave. It would need another three votes - all remain - to trump that.

You are not allowed to call it a second referendum the spin doctors and remainers much prefer peoples vote.  They think people are that stupid that they won't see it for what it is a second referendum because they don't like the result of the first one, if they call it a peoples vote. 

Edited by ordnance
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5 minutes ago, ordnance said:

They think people are that stupid that they won't see it for what is is a second referendum because they don't like the result of the first one

There should NOT be a second referendum.  The first one had a clear outcome that has not yet been carried out.  Just to remind those with short memories, the country chose to leave the EU.

IF there was a second referendum, the only question seems to be;

  • Do you want to leave under Mrs May's present transition deal
  • Do you want to leave under World Trade Organisation terms
Edited by JohnfromUK
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Not sure what has been said re NI border in the event of no deal. 

I doubt anything would happen, no Irish government will put in place a hard border and the UK say they won't.  The ROI and the EU are just using it to put pressure on the UK government. 

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4 minutes ago, ordnance said:

You are not allowed to call it a second referendum the spin doctors and remainers much prefer peoples vote.  They think people are that stupid that they won't see it for what is is a second referendum because they don't like the result of the first one, if they call it a peoples vote. 

Aaaah ..but.. it is a peoples vote, its a peoples vote on the terms of the withdrawal agreement, err not a second Ref at all.
It just so happens REMAIN might be on the ballot paper 😂

2 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

IF there was a second referendum, the only question seems to be;

  • Do you want to leave under Mrs May's present transition deal
  • Do you want to leave under World Trade Organisation terms

Perfect !

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