Brexit - merged threads

[hambone]

14 minutes ago, oowee said:

Sour grapes my ****

First past the post is often only democratic in a two horse race. Add a few more riders and democracy goes out the window and we end up with the swinging, wasteful, short term politics that we have now. Lurching from left to right is not the best way to get down the road in my book. 

Neither is going backwards but that's where Corbin's lot want to take us 

[pinfireman]

15 hours ago, toxo said:

Can't find any list???

Look in their archives....if I can  find it again, I,ll post it....

7 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

And now the BBC is reporting that Car Insurance premiums are to rise because of............................................................BREXIT!

https://www.cheshirelandroverclub.org/

I know!  It,s a typical load of bovine scatorum!

3 hours ago, grrclark said:

If you absolutely believe in your own mind that you are correct in all that you say, if you have an unshakable belief in yourself then when others disagree or challenge it can only be because of race or gender bias.  That is the default position of Diane Abbot.

Unfortunately she keeps getting voted back in to office which solidifies her self opinion.

There is obviously a plague of idiocy in her constituency.

People used to say that there is an idiot in every village.   I,ve got news for you..............they have left there villages, and moved en masse to Hackney, where they feel right at home!

[pinfireman]

3 hours ago, Bazooka Joe said:

Reading the above reminded me of a Whatsapp I got the other day...

 

I LOVE IT! 

[oowee]

9 minutes ago, pinfireman said:

"If we had a more democratic system".....we would have a permanent committee! And as it stands, Lib/Lab/Green would almost certainly prevail!

Yep its not working too well in Germany. 

[Rewulf]

21 minutes ago, oowee said:

Sour grapes my ****

First past the post is often only democratic in a two horse race. Add a few more riders and democracy goes out the window and we end up with the swinging, wasteful, short term politics that we have now. Lurching from left to right is not the best way to get down the road in my book. 

I'm sorry but Mogg has a 10000 pax majority in your constituency does he not, Labour and all the other candidates combined doesn't beat him, and that's with a healthy 75 % turnout. 

So which bit don't you like? 

The bit where he's more popular than all the others combined, or the fact he's a a tory, toff, Brexiter, absolute cad? 

The system is not flawed in the case you pointed out. 

 

[pinfireman]

26 minutes ago, oowee said:

Sour grapes my ****

First past the post is often only democratic in a two horse race. Add a few more riders and democracy goes out the window and we end up with the swinging, wasteful, short term politics that we have now. Lurching from left to right is not the best way to get down the road in my book. 

So clearly, you would like the permanent coaltions that we see in other countries? Well, if it happened here, we would have a permanent Left coaltion, of Labour, LiDems,SNP,Greens,PaidCwmri and Uncle Tom Cobley et al.  No thanks! Virtually all of them anti fieldsports, and anti shooting? And that,s just for starters!

6 minutes ago, oowee said:

Yep its not working too well in Germany. 

Well, they are starting to slide into recession! And let,s not forget, Britain and the USA  helped pay for their "economic miracle" by  paying for their defence for half a century! And now the Right is on the rise there.....fed up with coalition politics!

6 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I'm sorry but Mogg has a 10000 pax majority in your constituency does he not, Labour and all the other candidates combined doesn't beat him, and that's with a healthy 75 % turnout. 

So which bit don't you like? 

The bit where he's more popular than all the others combined, or the fact he's a a tory, toff, Brexiter, absolute cad? 

The system is not flawed in the case you pointed out. 

 

Correct!

[pinfireman]

This is the REAL TRAITOR!

Alex Wickham has scooped the Sundays by getting hold of Grieve’s Proposed Amendment to let a minority take control of the parliamentary legislative agenda:

PROPOSED AMENDMENT 1 TO SECTION 13(6) MOTION

As an Amendment to the Motion tabled for the purposes of section 13(6) of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2017
Leave out from “House” to end and insert “believes that [INSERT DECLARATORY WORDS RELATING TO NEED TO PREVENT NO DEAL BREXIT), and orders accordingly that — (1) On [DATE OF SUBSEQUENT SITTING DAY TO BE INSERTED] —

(a) Standing Order No. 14(1) (which provides that government business shall have precedence at every sitting sa. as provided in that order) shall (subject to paragraph (e)) not apply;
(b) a Motion in connection with the United Kingdom’s withdrawal from the European Union in the name of at least 300 Members of the House elected to the House as members of at least five parties and including at least 10 Members elected to the House as members of the party in Government shall stand as the first item of business;
(c) that motion may be proceeded with at any hour though opposed, shall not be interrupted at the moment of interruption, and, if under discussion when business is postponed under the provisions of any standing order, may be returned, though opposed, after the interruption of business; and Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred divisions) will not apply;
(d) at the conclusion of debate on that motion, the questions necessary to dispose of proceedings on that motion (including for the purposes of Standing Order No. 36(2) (questions to be put following closure of debate)) shall include the questions on any amendments selected by the Speaker which may then be moved; and
(e) but if no motion which meets the requirements of paragraph (b) is tabled by 6.00 pm on [DATE PRIOR TO INTENDED DATE OF DEBATE), the provisions of paragraphs (a) to (d) shall not apply”

If his amendment passes a minority of 300 MPs across five parties – with only 10 Tories needed – would be able to control the parliamentary agenda. Effectively creating a minority opposition controlled legislature.

It is possible that this draft might be a ruse, so that it looks more like a reasonable compromise when they go for a straight majority in parliament taking control of legislative agenda from government. This is all designed to stop Brexit happening on March 29th without a deal in place. It is a coup against the expressed will of the people…

This man has to be stopped!

[oowee]

32 minutes ago, pinfireman said:

 

Well, they are starting to slide into recession! And let,s not forget, Britain and the USA  helped pay for their "economic miracle" by  paying for their defence for half a century! And now the Right is on the rise there.....fed up with coalition politics!

 

Have you ever been ?

If only one day we could be in the recession like Germany. Fingers crossed. 

37 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I'm sorry but Mogg has a 10000 pax majority in your constituency does he not, Labour and all the other candidates combined doesn't beat him, and that's with a healthy 75 % turnout. 

So which bit don't you like? 

The bit where he's more popular than all the others combined, or the fact he's a a tory, toff, Brexiter, absolute cad? 

The system is not flawed in the case you pointed out. 

 

That the other votes are wasted and cannot be heard. It's not about one constituency nothing to do with JRM. Look at the wasted votes over the country as a whole. Minority governments and policies in power. The country lurches left and right like an old drunk staggering slowly forward.

It's a waste of good resources. Given the wealth of our country the place is a shambolic, pit of waste, a shadow of what it could be. Food banks, high levels of poverty, deprivation, nhs (your having a laugh), crime rates, housing shortages, homelessness, it goes on. The gap between the rich and the poor ever wider. We could be so much better with proper administration based upon moderate thought out politics. Most people want the same thing out of life and look what we have.

[Rewulf]

18 minutes ago, oowee said:

That the other votes are wasted and cannot be heard. It's not about one constituency nothing to do with JRM. Look at the wasted votes over the country as a whole. Minority governments and policies in power. The country lurches left and right like an old drunk staggering slowly forward.

It's a waste of good resources. Given the wealth of our country the place is a shambolic, pit of waste, a shadow of what it could be. Food banks, high levels of poverty, deprivation, nhs (your having a laugh), crime rates, housing shortages, homelessness, it goes on. The gap between the rich and the poor ever wider. We could be so much better with proper administration based upon moderate thought out politics. Most people want the same thing out of life and look what we have.

The votes are not wasted, you cast your vote for who best serves your interest, its only wasted if you dont bother, and yes it IS about one constituency, the one YOU live in, where YOUR interests lie.
Do you think proportional representation would serve YOUR constituency better, really ?

Its a waste of resources because politicians by their very nature, bicker about how THEY would do it better than the ones in power.
Answer honestly, how has Labour helped the Brexit process along ?
All they have done is attack the government, published a pointless 6 tests (BRINO) and done everything it can to damage the government, just so it can try to seize power , its truly pathetic.
Do you truly believe that the labour party has this countries best interests at heart, I dont.

But this it how it works, if one side makes a suggestion, the other side shouts it down, even if its a perfectly good proposal.
Then you have MPs from NI and Scotland, who have agendas completely removed from the UKs interest.
But this is democracy, this is the system we have.

Proper administration ? Moderate politics, from who ? Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbot ? Please !
Ill stick with what we have for now, at least May can string a sentence together without spittle flying all over the place.

 

Edited January 19, 2019 by Rewulf

[Yellow Bear]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

Yep its not working too well in Germany. 

And even better in Italy

[oowee]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Do you think proportional representation would serve YOUR constituency better, really ?

Its a waste of resources because politicians by their very nature, bicker about how THEY would do it better than the ones in power.


But this it how it works, if one side makes a suggestion, the other side shouts it down, even if its a perfectly good proposal.
Then you have MPs from NI and Scotland, who have agendas completely removed from the UKs interest.
But this is democracy, this is the system we have.

Proper administration ? Moderate politics, from who ? Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbot ? Please !
Ill stick with what we have for now, at least May can string a sentence together without spittle flying all over the place.

That exactly answers the point. It's precisely for this reason that the system does not work. Ask yourself, where does Corbyn and his like come from (and i don't mean Chippenham). The rise of the extreme is a response of the failure of the system we have. We turn from moderates to the extreme in a cry for help it's a natural reaction. The UK should be a world power a world class nation not a bit player stumbling about at the margins. It should be leading the way. We can be that nation but not if we don't get our act in order and we will not do that with our current party politics. 

Sooner or later the likes of Corbyn on the left or the right will get in to power and the pendulum swings further from the middle ground. 

It is the system we have but it does not serve a rich developed country well. 

MP's largely do not serve the constituency. That is mostly the role of Councillors. 

 

32 minutes ago, Yellow Bear said:

And even better in Italy

When since the fall of the Roman empire has Italy had the resources and wealth of the UK or Germany? 

[pinfireman]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

Have you ever been ?

If only one day we could be in the recession like Germany. Fingers crossed. 

That the other votes are wasted and cannot be heard. It's not about one constituency nothing to do with JRM. Look at the wasted votes over the country as a whole. Minority governments and policies in power. The country lurches left and right like an old drunk staggering slowly forward.

It's a waste of good resources. Given the wealth of our country the place is a shambolic, pit of waste, a shadow of what it could be. Food banks, high levels of poverty, deprivation, nhs (your having a laugh), crime rates, housing shortages, homelessness, it goes on. The gap between the rich and the poor ever wider. We could be so much better with proper administration based upon moderate thought out politics. Most people want the same thing out of life and look what we have.

Yes, I have been there! Several times! And one of my wife,s closest friends is German, travels back 4 times a year! She thinks we are right to get out of the EU, and says the mood in Germany at the moment is swinging hard against Merkel, AND her coalition!

1 hour ago, oowee said:

Have you ever been ?

If only one day we could be in the recession like Germany. Fingers crossed. 

That the other votes are wasted and cannot be heard. It's not about one constituency nothing to do with JRM. Look at the wasted votes over the country as a whole. Minority governments and policies in power. The country lurches left and right like an old drunk staggering slowly forward.

It's a waste of good resources. Given the wealth of our country the place is a shambolic, pit of waste, a shadow of what it could be. Food banks, high levels of poverty, deprivation, nhs (your having a laugh), crime rates, housing shortages, homelessness, it goes on. The gap between the rich and the poor ever wider. We could be so much better with proper administration based upon moderate thought out politics. Most people want the same thing out of life and look what we have.

Coalitions stink! Don,t just pick out Germany as a shining example, there are others out there, where coalitions have lead to stagnation politics! Everybody has a say, and NOTHING gets done!

1 hour ago, oowee said:

Have you ever been ?

If only one day we could be in the recession like Germany. Fingers crossed. 

That the other votes are wasted and cannot be heard. It's not about one constituency nothing to do with JRM. Look at the wasted votes over the country as a whole. Minority governments and policies in power. The country lurches left and right like an old drunk staggering slowly forward.

It's a waste of good resources. Given the wealth of our country the place is a shambolic, pit of waste, a shadow of what it could be. Food banks, high levels of poverty, deprivation, nhs (your having a laugh), crime rates, housing shortages, homelessness, it goes on. The gap between the rich and the poor ever wider. We could be so much better with proper administration based upon moderate thought out politics. Most people want the same thing out of life and look what we have.

and naturally, that would be a socialist "proper administration"?  

[pinfireman]

12 minutes ago, oowee said:

That exactly answers the point. It's precisely for this reason that the system does not work. Ask yourself, where does Corbyn and his like come from (and i don't mean Chippenham). The rise of the extreme is a response of the failure of the system we have. We turn from moderates to the extreme in a cry for help it's a natural reaction. The UK should be a world power a world class nation not a bit player stumbling about at the margins. It should be leading the way. We can be that nation but not if we don't get our act in order and we will not do that with our current party politics. 

Sooner or later the likes of Corbyn on the left or the right will get in to power and the pendulum swings further from the middle ground. 

It is the system we have but it does not serve a rich developed country well. 

MP's largely do not serve the constituency. That is mostly the role of Councillors. 

 

When since the fall of the Roman empire has Italy had the resources and wealth of the UK or Germany? 

OK, So you,re not a Corbyn fanatic, you follow the senile Vince Cable and his mob? They are always banging on about Prop. Representation (but that,s only because it,s the only way they can ever hope to have a little power..............)

18 minutes ago, oowee said:

That exactly answers the point. It's precisely for this reason that the system does not work. Ask yourself, where does Corbyn and his like come from (and i don't mean Chippenham). The rise of the extreme is a response of the failure of the system we have. We turn from moderates to the extreme in a cry for help it's a natural reaction. The UK should be a world power a world class nation not a bit player stumbling about at the margins. It should be leading the way. We can be that nation but not if we don't get our act in order and we will not do that with our current party politics. 

Sooner or later the likes of Corbyn on the left or the right will get in to power and the pendulum swings further from the middle ground. 

It is the system we have but it does not serve a rich developed country well. 

MP's largely do not serve the constituency. That is mostly the role of Councillors. 

 

When since the fall of the Roman empire has Italy had the resources and wealth of the UK or Germany? 

No one said Italy matched Germany or the UK in wealth, but it ain,t a poor country!

[Yellow Bear]

22 minutes ago, oowee said:

59 minutes ago, Yellow Bear said:

And even better in Italy

When since the fall of the Roman empire has Italy had the resources and wealth of the UK or Germany? 

But it could have if it was not subject to the whims of ultra left wing minority parties, needed to form a government, but blocking any move to reduce union/state, for want of a better word, interference.  When a party that was vaguely right of centre gained power there are howls about resurgence of Nazis.  It is getting the same in the UK, anyone to the right of left-of-centre is labeled a nazi and/or  a racist by the left wing Snowflakes.

Edited January 19, 2019 by Yellow Bear

[JohnfromUK]

5 minutes ago, pinfireman said:

They are always banging on about Prop. Representation (but that,s only because it,s the only way they can ever hope to have a little power..............)

When they came into coalition with Cameron one of their insistences was to have a referendum on PR.  It failed by a large margin.  Near enough 68% against.  Why?

It is very obvious - we don't want people like Clegg in government.  He was useless - which is why he was only ever in a party that wasn't going anywhere ........ and by the time he'd finished there wasn't much of a party either.

Cable started out in the Labour party ....... but swapped to LibDem because Labour weren't promoting him ......... very possibly because he wasn't any good.

Parties do well because overall - they offer what people want - and people believe they may carry (at least a bit of) it out.  Parties do badly because they offer things people don't want.

Coalitions and minority governments are typically weak, control is often vested in a very small 'balance of power' group, and always potentially unstable.

What is (theoretically) best is a government with a sound working majority, but not so huge that it cannot be held to account by Parliament.  The government needs competent top level people - who are often well experienced in running businesses.  Many of these people nowadays are either career politicians who have never done a proper days work in their lives, or ex lawyers who have never done an honest days work in their lives!

[oowee]

27 minutes ago, pinfireman said:

Yes, I have been there! Several times! And one of my wife,s closest friends is German, travels back 4 times a year! She thinks we are right to get out of the EU, and says the mood in Germany at the moment is swinging hard against Merkel, AND her coalition!

Coalitions stink! Don,t just pick out Germany as a shining example, there are others out there, where coalitions have lead to stagnation politics! Everybody has a say, and NOTHING gets done!

and naturally, that would be a socialist "proper administration"?  

What does that have to do with the standard of living in the country now? 

Is it any different here? What is getting done in the UK? Where are we going as a Nation. The UK is NOT sorting out it's problems. 

You may want it but i don't think it will be best for  the country. In the same way I don't think a right wing party would be good news either. 

[Newbie to this]

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/224908

About stopping the extension or withdrawal of article 50, not that they will listen.

[panoma1]

8 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/224908

About stopping the extension or withdrawal of article 50, not that they will listen.

Great thanks for the link!

[JRDS]

Grieve what a loathsome P O S !!  Hope he gets his at some point soon.

Edited January 19, 2019 by JRDS

[oowee]

I would not want to see anyone executed for expressing a different view from me. 

[JRDS]

Treason is not a different point of view now is it?  The vote was given to the nation and we had it.  It is not up to Parliament to then overturn that, deliberately trying to overturn the biggest democratic vote in the UK is Treason and in the old days he would have been hung.

Edited January 19, 2019 by JRDS

[pinfireman]

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

When they came into coalition with Cameron one of their insistences was to have a referendum on PR.  It failed by a large margin.  Near enough 68% against.  Why?

It is very obvious - we don't want people like Clegg in government.  He was useless - which is why he was only ever in a party that wasn't going anywhere ........ and by the time he'd finished there wasn't much of a party either.

Cable started out in the Labour party ....... but swapped to LibDem because Labour weren't promoting him ......... very possibly because he wasn't any good.

Parties do well because overall - they offer what people want - and people believe they may carry (at least a bit of) it out.  Parties do badly because they offer things people don't want.

Coalitions and minority governments are typically weak, control is often vested in a very small 'balance of power' group, and always potentially unstable.

What is (theoretically) best is a government with a sound working majority, but not so huge that it cannot be held to account by Parliament.  The government needs competent top level people - who are often well experienced in running businesses.  Many of these people nowadays are either career politicians who have never done a proper days work in their lives, or ex lawyers who have never done an honest days work in their lives!

How very true!

1 hour ago, oowee said:

What does that have to do with the standard of living in the country now? 

Is it any different here? What is getting done in the UK? Where are we going as a Nation. The UK is NOT sorting out it's problems. 

You may want it but i don't think it will be best for  the country. In the same way I don't think a right wing party would be good news either. 

and a Left wing would? You are deluded! We had Labour for 13 years, with a huge majority! What did they do?  Filled the country with unwanted migrants, from within, and out, of the EU! They achieved virtually nothing!  Corby et al, would be far worse! As for the LibDems......God help us! P.S. And shooting would disappear! They can,t have the peasantry owning guns!

[pinfireman]

18 minutes ago, JRDS said:

Grieve what a loathsome P O S !!  Hope he gets his at some point soon.

So do I, and millions more........a nasty piece of work! Sadly, he has a big majority in a Remain constituency....but his accolytes, Morgan, Soubry and Greening are wide open to be booted out of politics. And they will be!

16 minutes ago, oowee said:

I would not want to see anyone executed for expressing a different view from me. 

He is entitled to a different view......he is NOT entitled to betray a democratic decision by the people!

15 minutes ago, JRDS said:

Treason is not a different point of view now is it?  The vote was given to the nation and we had it.  It is not up to Parliament to then overturn that, deliberately trying to overturn the biggest democratic vote in the UK is Treason and in the old days he would have been hung.

CORRECT!

[Rewulf]

2 hours ago, oowee said:

We can be that nation but not if we don't get our act in order and we will not do that with our current party politics

The last 2.5 years have been a real eye opener for me and millions of others, we've got to see our political class at their absolute worst. 

You want to see change, I'll guarantee you now that change will come, whether it's hard, soft or poached Brexit. 

Eyes have been opened and genies let out, make no mistake on that.

[JRDS]

9 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

The last 2.5 years have been a real eye opener for me and millions of others, we've got to see our political class at their absolute worst. 

You want to see change, I'll guarantee you now that change will come, whether it's hard, soft or poached Brexit. 

Eyes have been opened and  genies let out, make no mistake on that.

Totally agree, 99% of both houses hated with a passion by the vast majority I would imagine.