Raja Clavata Posted February 27, 2019 Report Share Posted February 27, 2019 21 minutes ago, pinfireman said: Ordinary bloke? I guess this is all relative to our own individual established norms and not something that I really see as relevant here. The point is we all have the right to express our views. TBH I'm not really sure what you're inferring here and not really interested as it serves no useful purpose. 2 hours ago, das said: That told him, well done👍 yeah but it didn't really, did it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted February 27, 2019 Report Share Posted February 27, 2019 1 hour ago, pinfireman said: It,s not around 50%...it,s 52% for Leaving and 48% for staying. A clear majority....1.4 million majority! it WAS 52% leave and 48% remain. Nobody knows if that still holds just the same way that nobody can credibly claim that 100% of the 52% who voted leave on the basis of "leave means leave". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted February 27, 2019 Report Share Posted February 27, 2019 30 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: it WAS 52% leave and 48% remain. Nobody knows if that still holds just the same way that nobody can credibly claim that 100% of the 52% who voted leave on the basis of "leave means leave". Allowing that (perhaps) up to a million voters that weren't allowed to vote but did anyway, the figure would have been closer to 45% v 55% leave. If the leave vote is thwarted don't disregard the backlash or the damage that will be done to parliamentary democracy for generations...………….. History will reveal that Oliver Robbins rather than Theresa May negotiated brexit and he was a staunch remainer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinfireman Posted February 27, 2019 Report Share Posted February 27, 2019 1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said: So you ask for examples which you dismiss as garbage then spout mostly ill truths or at best gloss over the details (and the devil really is in the detail for the majority of the points here) which is the classic populist approach as per Trump, Farage and co... I'm not defending politicians. "That was not bemoaning.. that was complaining" err, ok Farage was right about immigration....if you lived in the areas blighted by uncontrolled mass immigration, you might change your tune. Some of us do...... 1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said: So you ask for examples which you dismiss as garbage then spout mostly ill truths or at best gloss over the details (and the devil really is in the detail for the majority of the points here) which is the classic populist approach as per Trump, Farage and co... I'm not defending politicians. "That was not bemoaning.. that was complaining" err, ok I notice you avoid the remark about Corbyn? 1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said: I guess this is all relative to our own individual established norms and not something that I really see as relevant here. The point is we all have the right to express our views. TBH I'm not really sure what you're inferring here and not really interested as it serves no useful purpose. yeah but it didn't really, did it... Inferring? Nothing. Merely curious..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinfireman Posted February 27, 2019 Report Share Posted February 27, 2019 51 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: it WAS 52% leave and 48% remain. Nobody knows if that still holds just the same way that nobody can credibly claim that 100% of the 52% who voted leave on the basis of "leave means leave". Ah....the classic Remoaner remark. Ask those on here who voted Leave what it meant to them....they are, after all, normal blokes from all walks of life! I know of no-one who voted Leave, who did not understand what that meant....I know several people who voted Remain, yet would not do so again, as a. Project Fear was shown to be a basket of lies, and b. they are democrats who accepted the result of a fair Referendum. I do not believe you were a Leaver. I do not believe that you accepted a democratic result. I do believe that your here merely to try to influence people to accept what the politicians are going to force on us, and to help nip in the bud any resistance to it. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. I always detested Tony Benn, but this goes to show that everyone can be right once.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retsdon Posted February 28, 2019 Report Share Posted February 28, 2019 5 hours ago, pinfireman said: Ah....the classic Remoaner remark. Ask those on here who voted Leave what it meant to them....they are, after all, normal blokes from all walks of life! I know of no-one who voted Leave, who did not understand what that meant....I know several people who voted Remain, yet would not do so again, as a. Project Fear was shown to be a basket of lies, and b. they are democrats who accepted the result of a fair Referendum. I do not believe you were a Leaver. I do not believe that you accepted a democratic result. I do believe that your here merely to try to influence people to accept what the politicians are going to force on us, and to help nip in the bud any resistance to it. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. I always detested Tony Benn, but this goes to show that everyone can be right once.... So you want to do away with the NHS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaymo Posted February 28, 2019 Report Share Posted February 28, 2019 6 hours ago, Vince Green said: Allowing that (perhaps) up to a million voters that weren't allowed to vote but did anyway, the figure would have been closer to 45% v 55% leave. If the leave vote is thwarted don't disregard the backlash or the damage that will be done to parliamentary democracy for generations...………….. History will reveal that Oliver Robbins rather than Theresa May negotiated brexit and he was a staunch remainer What about the 10 million who were registered to vote but didn’t, maybe it would have been a landslide Remain? Whether it was complacency or confidence of ‘Remain’ winning, possibly ‘couldn’t be bothered or care less’, that lead to them not voting, but it does make you think. Had those 10 mill voted ‘Leave’, then yes, I think that would have been the sort of majority that would have ‘fully’ confirmed the wishes of ‘All the people’ ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted February 28, 2019 Report Share Posted February 28, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Jaymo said: What about the 10 million who were registered to vote but didn’t, maybe it would have been a landslide Remain? Whether it was complacency or confidence of ‘Remain’ winning, possibly ‘couldn’t be bothered or care less’, that lead to them not voting, but it does make you think. Had those 10 mill voted ‘Leave’, then yes, I think that would have been the sort of majority that would have ‘fully’ confirmed the wishes of ‘All the people’ ...... But it’s not about ‘all the people’ is it? It’s about those who could be bothered to vote, just as it is in any general election or otherwise. Blairs government came into power with a landslide victory, but did ‘all’ the people vote? No. The majority of all those who voted in the referendum, voted to leave; that result should be honoured. What would be the outcome if the result of a general election received the same scandalous campaigning to overturn it as the referendum has? If we don’t leave, I sincerely hope Labour win the next GE, with Corbyn at the helm and Abbott as HS. Those who forecast oblivion if we leave the EU, will hopefully then get what they truly deserve. Edited February 28, 2019 by Scully Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted February 28, 2019 Report Share Posted February 28, 2019 8 hours ago, Vince Green said: Allowing that (perhaps) up to a million voters that weren't allowed to vote but did anyway, the figure would have been closer to 45% v 55% leave. If the leave vote is thwarted don't disregard the backlash or the damage that will be done to parliamentary democracy for generations...………….. History will reveal that Oliver Robbins rather than Theresa May negotiated brexit and he was a staunch remainer That's just one variable Vince and there are others that sway the number in each direction, to what extent nobody knows. And yes i believe you are right about Robbins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted February 28, 2019 Report Share Posted February 28, 2019 8 hours ago, pinfireman said: Farage was right about immigration....if you lived in the areas blighted by uncontrolled mass immigration, you might change your tune. Some of us do...... I notice you avoid the remark about Corbyn? Inferring? Nothing. Merely curious..... You'd need to be more specific about the areas and the immigrants, I've grown up in East London / Essex (within the M25) all my life and the demographic has changed significantly over that time but it's only quite recently that Eastern Europeans have become much more prevalent. The point is you can't paint all immigration as a function of the EU, lots of immigrants come from much further afield than Europe (and did not pass through Europe to get to us). Sorry I must have missed your point about Corbyn - for the record I view Corbyn with utter contempt and have never voted Labour in my life! I guess I'll try to satisfy your curiosity in further posts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShootingEgg Posted February 28, 2019 Report Share Posted February 28, 2019 27 minutes ago, Scully said: If we don’t leave, I sincerely hope Labour win the next GE, with Corbyn at the helm and Abbott as HS. Those who forecast oblivion if we leave the EU, will hopefully then get what they truly deserve. Although that thought did send a shiver down my spine, I totally agree with you. Let them see what utter madness this raving madman would cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted February 28, 2019 Report Share Posted February 28, 2019 8 hours ago, pinfireman said: Ah....the classic Remoaner remark. Ask those on here who voted Leave what it meant to them....they are, after all, normal blokes from all walks of life! I know of no-one who voted Leave, who did not understand what that meant....I know several people who voted Remain, yet would not do so again, as a. Project Fear was shown to be a basket of lies, and b. they are democrats who accepted the result of a fair Referendum. I do not believe you were a Leaver. I do not believe that you accepted a democratic result. I do believe that your here merely to try to influence people to accept what the politicians are going to force on us, and to help nip in the bud any resistance to it. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. I always detested Tony Benn, but this goes to show that everyone can be right once.... So you believe the compass of the people you know is representative of the entire UK population. I've not read all 188 pages of this thread but it's self evident that Remainers are under-represented and I suspect have previously been shouted down. You keep spouting on about Project Fear lies but seem unwilling to accept the Leavers had an equal hand in lying for their cause. I have never claimed to be a Leaver. I do accept that 52% voted to leave in 2016. Now you are getting into proper Osama Bin Brexit fantasist territory. I came back to PW as my FAC is up for renewal and was looking for a scope when I just happened upon this thread. I have nothing to say on Tony Benn. I'll put a post up to clarify exactly why I am here in a few... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted February 28, 2019 Report Share Posted February 28, 2019 1 hour ago, Scully said: If we don’t leave, I sincerely hope Labour win the next GE, with Corbyn at the helm and Abbott as HS. Those who forecast oblivion if we leave the EU, will hopefully then get what they truly deserve. If we don't leave then there's no reason to vote Corbyn and his lot in. But I view five years of Corbyn as a lesser evil than Brexit so would vote Labour for the first time if it meant staying in the EU or returning after leaving because Brexit isn't political in the traditional sense it's ideological. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted February 28, 2019 Report Share Posted February 28, 2019 Quote it WAS 52% leave and 48% remain. Nobody knows if that still holds just the same way that nobody can credibly claim that 100% of the 52% who voted leave on the basis of "leave means leave". Priceless rubbish. It was spelt out that leave meant leave. Topped only by this. Quote But I view five years of Corbyn as a lesser evil than Brexit so would vote Labour for the first time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted February 28, 2019 Report Share Posted February 28, 2019 36 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: If we don't leave then there's no reason to vote Corbyn and his lot in. But I view five years of Corbyn as a lesser evil than Brexit so would vote Labour for the first time if it meant staying in the EU or returning after leaving because Brexit isn't political in the traditional sense it's ideological. Would you like to see the result of the referendum, and therefore the democratic process overturned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted February 28, 2019 Report Share Posted February 28, 2019 9 hours ago, pinfireman said: I do believe that your here merely to try to influence people to accept what the politicians are going to force on us, and to help nip in the bud any resistance to it. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. In response to pinfireman and in danger of a one or two line put down from the seemingly self appointed PW Brexit Demagogue, but anyway here goes... In the run up to the referendum, for me personally the whole IN or OUT of Brexit was a massive grey area, my initial bias was towards OUT but as I weighed up the pros and cons I increasingly became uncertain that was the correct choice for me, in a sense it was a case of the more I learnt the less I knew. In the discussions with close friends and family during this phase I was surprised that a number of them saw it in very black and white terms, or at least those that were in the OUT camp did. In the final discussions prior to the vote I was astonished to find out both my brother and my life long best friend had voted out by post well in advance of the deadline - people that had previously confided in me with personal issues and asked for my opinion on choices, just as I had with them, had already "pulled their Brexit trigger". I can't speak for others but during this period I was barely if at all biased one way or the other by the mainstream media or press. Bottom line come voting day was that I could not vote for something as important as Brexit without details of what the vote meant in real terms, so I voted remain. So I've been curious all along about how the people that voted OUT did so with so much conviction, in clear black and white terms. This is what I have concluded from discussions with Leavers close to me: Two of my best mates are cabbies and their logic is something like: We hate Uber, Uber drivers are foreigners, so we don't like foreigners and they come from the EU, let's leave. One of my other best mates is a spark: "To be honest Mick, I didn't understand all the details so voted purely on the basis of immigration as our sites are full of Eastern bloc workers". One of my other mates renovates houses and runs a few other things in the background but nothing like a "proper job" - he now blames foreign workers for preventing him from earning a decent living. Intrigued by these and others I have really tried to get into the minds of the leavers mentality but have repeatedly hit the methaphoric brick wall with retorts of the standard diatribe along the lines of being patronising and / or suggesting Leavers are stupid. Standard and well trodden defence mechanisms. Yet through all these discussions I have yet to hear a single tangible personal benefit that any Leaver has been able to cite to support their decision to vote Leave. If anyone has a tangible personal benefit for leaving that they can propose then I would love to learn of it!? Over to you pinfireman et. al... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted February 28, 2019 Report Share Posted February 28, 2019 21 minutes ago, Gordon R said: Priceless rubbish. It was spelt out that leave meant leave. Topped only by this. Seriously... "Leave means leave" emerged as a phrase after the referendum vote. You dismiss my comments as priceless rubbish and other things and then cite ill truths, pretty bad form. But there again there is plenty of form here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scutt Posted February 28, 2019 Report Share Posted February 28, 2019 OK for you personally the hole in or out Brexit was a grey area .For the folk you picked out as examples it was black and white NO it was Personal opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted February 28, 2019 Report Share Posted February 28, 2019 Just now, scutt said: OK for you personally the hole in or out Brexit was a grey area .For the folk you picked out as examples it was black and white NO it was Personal opinions. For them it was a black and white choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scutt Posted February 28, 2019 Report Share Posted February 28, 2019 RIGHTLY OR WRONGLY IT'S A CHOICE THE MAJORITY MADE. Iam not vey clever with words a bit thick to be honest but win by an inch is the same as win by a mile .all the hindsight and butt clenching should not change this fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mice! Posted February 28, 2019 Report Share Posted February 28, 2019 14 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: I can't speak for others but during this period I was barely if at all biased one way or the other by the mainstream media or press. Bottom line come voting day was that I could not vote for something as important as Brexit without details of what the vote meant in real terms, so I voted remain. So I've been curious all along about how the people that voted OUT did so with so much conviction, in clear black and white terms. This is what I have concluded from discussions with Leavers close to me: Two of my best mates are cabbies and their logic is something like: We hate Uber, Uber drivers are foreigners, so we don't like foreigners and they come from the EU, let's leave. Put in simple terms we were asked to vote Leave or remain, I've said before that my mum had never voted in a GE but did vote Leave. For me personally i wanted our country ruled by us, not a Failing European super state. I've never believed half of what either leave or remain said before the referendum, since when did politicians tell the truth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted February 28, 2019 Report Share Posted February 28, 2019 24 minutes ago, Scully said: Would you like to see the result of the referendum, and therefore the democratic process overturned? NO! I would have liked to see us crash out on the 30th June 2016 which would have most likely seen us back in by year end once we realised what we had actually voted for. In terms of preparation there is very little to differentiate between out on WTO terms on 30th June 2016 and 29th March 2019 except for the irrecoverable damage that has been done in the meantime. If the Leavers are all cock sure it was the correct outcome then and remains the correct outcome now then what do they fear so much over a second vote that clearly spells out the details? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mice! Posted February 28, 2019 Report Share Posted February 28, 2019 1 minute ago, Raja Clavata said: NO! I would have liked to see us crash out on the 30th June 2016 which would have most likely seen us back in by year end once we realised what we had actually voted for. In terms of preparation there is very little to differentiate between out on WTO terms on 30th June 2016 and 29th March 2019 except for the irrecoverable damage that has been done in the meantime. If the Leavers are all cock sure it was the correct outcome then and remains the correct outcome now then what do they fear so much over a second vote that clearly spells out the details? The "fear" of another vote means there will be another every two years, because it will just keep going. As for crashing out, that would have been great but we had to give notice, so we did. I really do hope its no deal come March, we can say stick it and see what happens, i don't see the shops not selling food and can't see the lights going out. But they might in Europe when the cracks they've been trying to cover split wide open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted February 28, 2019 Report Share Posted February 28, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: If the Leavers are all cock sure it was the correct outcome then and remains the correct outcome now then what do they fear so much over a second vote that clearly spells out the details? Quite simply the end of Democracy. Another referendum before the result of the first is enacted is undemocratic, and anyone advocating one is an anti-democrat. The leader of the UK government at the time said the result would be carried out and he also made it very clear what it would entail. If you go back and read the whole thread you will find various posts and videos showing Cameron saying this and let's not forget the leaflet. Edited February 28, 2019 by Newbie to this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted February 28, 2019 Report Share Posted February 28, 2019 25 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: In the final discussions prior to the vote I was astonished to find out both my brother and my life long best friend had voted out by post well in advance of the deadline - people that had previously confided in me with personal issues and asked for my opinion on choices, just as I had with them, had already "pulled their Brexit trigger". OMG 😲 A Brexit betrayal ! 26 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: I can't speak for others but during this period I was barely if at all biased one way or the other by the mainstream media or press. Bottom line come voting day was that I could not vote for something as important as Brexit without details of what the vote meant in real terms, so I voted remain. OMG 😲 So you didnt know what you were voting for ? 28 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: Two of my best mates are cabbies and their logic is something like: We hate Uber, Uber drivers are foreigners, so we don't like foreigners and they come from the EU, let's leave. OMG 😲 You have friends who are xenophobes and racists ? 30 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: Intrigued by these and others I have really tried to get into the minds of the leavers mentality but have repeatedly hit the methaphoric brick wall with retorts of the standard diatribe along the lines of being patronising and / or suggesting Leavers are stupid. Standard and well trodden defence mechanisms. Yet through all these discussions I have yet to hear a single tangible personal benefit that any Leaver has been able to cite to support their decision to vote Leave. OMG 😲 So youve tried to 'get into' your good racist friends minds , and been accused of being patronising ,and possibly insinuating they are not clever enough to know what they were voting for, obviously triggering their xenophobic neanderthal 'defence' mechanisms ? I cant think why that would be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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