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This is more of a rant than anything but after my eurostar train was cancelled last night due to French customs being on strike to get home today involved a tgv, 2 cabs and a ferry plus an overnight stay in Paris. I can't quite see how we being in or out the EU would make much difference and cause food to "rot on the docks" 

I can only assume politicians haven't seen the security measures and border controls we already have to go through to get people and goods in and out of the UK. Surely 3 years and the money spent compensating eurotunnel for uneseccasry new ferry routes could have gone on a new customs computer clearance system which meant there would need minimal changes on our current ports infrastructure ... Or am I over simplifying things? 

Not every container from outside the EU is opened. Customs are normally just a paperwork exercise and often done before the goods arrive anyway. 

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1 hour ago, ferguson_tom said:

This is more of a rant than anything but after my eurostar train was cancelled last night due to French customs being on strike to get home today involved a tgv, 2 cabs and a ferry plus an overnight stay in Paris. I can't quite see how we being in or out the EU would make much difference and cause food to "rot on the docks" 

I can only assume politicians haven't seen the security measures and border controls we already have to go through to get people and goods in and out of the UK. Surely 3 years and the money spent compensating eurotunnel for uneseccasry new ferry routes could have gone on a new customs computer clearance system which meant there would need minimal changes on our current ports infrastructure ... Or am I over simplifying things? 

Not every container from outside the EU is opened. Customs are normally just a paperwork exercise and often done before the goods arrive anyway. 

Its a good rant :good:

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4 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Why dont you like his business ?
He sells cheap beer and food, who doesnt love a Spoons ?
Whether you like the CEO is irrelevant , its the product that matters, you either buy it or you dont.

Profits are down because he has invested in his workforce, the business has tight margins, but he has put his money into the product and the people who deliver it.
The fact that hes a Brexiteer does not make him any less competent at running it.

I just don't (personal choice I guess) and given the option I'll drink somewhere else. I disagree about personal views on a CEO being irrelevant, it was a primary motivating factor in my decision to change jobs after 20 years in 2016 so why not apply same logic to where I spend my money.

Interesting point about investing in the work-force, I thought he had previously been a critic of minimum wage and it's impact on his business which I had taken to give insight into the mindset of Brexiteer employers, maybe I've got it all wrong though.

I in no way suggested a link to his views on Brexit having any relevance to his competence in running business not sure how or why you have inferred that.

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4 hours ago, pinfireman said:

His profits are down because of property write downs, labour costs, interest payments, utility bill increases, repairs etc. NOTHING to do with Brexit.  

Do you also dislike Lord Bamford, head of JCB, James Dyson,  and Jim Ratcliffe?  Because they too are Brexiteers.

I didn't say it had anything to do with Brexit.

My views on the other people aren't relevant here although I do think certain Dyson products are highly over-rated, time will tell about their electric vehicles.

Pretty sure I wouldn't be a fan of Tim Martin regardless of his views on Brexit but that's not to say I disagree with him on everything.

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20 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I just don't (personal choice I guess) and given the option I'll drink somewhere else.

I agree; I have never been in a Weatherspoons that had what I would call a proper old fashioned 'pub atmosphere'.  Hard to put a finger on why as they do try, but don't hit the spot for me.

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I use them a lot when im working away mainly because you know what your going to get in the way of food,The only problems I find with weatherspoons are there are never enough staff behind the bar, and i wish they had a specific till where you only order food,instead of making you wait when you only want a drink,

Edited by besty57
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50 minutes ago, besty57 said:

I use them a lot when im working away mainly because you know what your going to get in the way of food,The only problems I find with weatherspoons are there are never enough staff behind the bar, and i wish they had a specific till where you only order food,instead of making you wait when you only want a drink,

 

Download the app.

Find a table and use the app to order food and drink with table service.

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I see that he used the six monthly report on Wetherspoons as a platform to further attack those who don't align with his ideology but the man spouts drivel.

That 80 second clip on Question Time in early December last year has to be amongst the biggest pile of garbage anyone has every spouted in such a short time on that programme, trumping even the likes of George Galloway previously.

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30 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I see that he used the six monthly report on Wetherspoons as a platform to further attack those who don't align with his ideology but the man spouts drivel.

That 80 second clip on Question Time in early December last year has to be amongst the biggest pile of garbage anyone has every spouted in such a short time on that programme, trumping even the likes of George Galloway previously.

So you don't align with his 'drivel'? 

The irony.. 

The reports https://www.jdwetherspoon.com/investors-home/reports-results-presentations

Which I might add are really for the consumption of shareholders, not a manifesto, and last time I checked, its still a free country where you can express your opinion, drivel or otherwise. 

For someone who claims to be a little eurosceptic, you do come across as a bit rabid remain? 

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3 hours ago, Rewulf said:

So you don't align with his 'drivel'? 

The irony.. 

The reports https://www.jdwetherspoon.com/investors-home/reports-results-presentations

Which I might add are really for the consumption of shareholders, not a manifesto, and last time I checked, its still a free country where you can express your opinion, drivel or otherwise. 

For someone who claims to be a little eurosceptic, you do come across as a bit rabid remain? 

The real irony is he's promoting something that never is nor ever was going to happen, you, he and others may have voted for it but it was never really on the table. The fact that today it remains the default legal position is meaningless. Since his company are consumers and do not produce anything it's easy to understand that he does not care about the implications of no deal. You, he and any collective of people can credibly claim that no deal is what you voted for in ticking the leave box but it's incredible to state as matter of fact that all 17.4 million votes were identically minded on that.

And I quote:

"On the 29th March, if we have no deal and I call it free trade and be immediately better off by not paying £39B" 

WTO is not free trade, we walk away from 53 free trade agreements if we leave the EU on WTO terms

The £39B is not sitting in a bank account waiting to be spent on something else.

We also wouldn't pay the £39B if we remained.

"You can ignore the economists and weigh it up for yourself"

Ignore the economists and weigh it up from yourself - take the advice of someone educated as a lawyer who serves cheap alcohol and serves sling and ping meals for a living in an environment with zero atmosphere. Well no thanks, I've learnt to take legal advice from lawyers with a pinch of salt let alone economics advice from them...

"You can get control of the fishing, that's a tangible thing you can weigh up"

Who are we going to sell the fish to? Don't tell me we can flood Wetherspoons with free fish...

"You can remove the tarrifs, the invisible tarrifs you pay on oranges, rice and 12 thousand other products. We collect it here and send it to Europe so you can reduce prices here, plus our democracy"

This is very convenient, although not as straightforward as that, for an importer but what about our exports?

Oranges come from Spain with no tarrif, when oranges are not in season in Spain we get them tarrif free from elsewhere.

We are part of Europe, the tarrifs are collected from all member states and all member states benefit from them.

No deal Brexit will affect the £, so prices in the shops are likely to rise since we'll be importing all these products.

"We'll be better from day one and it'll continue to get better"

He thinks he'll be better off and doesn't seem to care about others

I'm getting fed up hearing about these ardent Brexiteers claiming to be holding their views based on altruistic values and espousing that people who do not align with these views as liars and heretics.

Finally yes, it's a free country and you can express your opinion and those opinions can be challenged, that's the basis of democracy.

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1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

The real irony is he's promoting something that never is nor ever was going to happen, you, he and others may have voted for it but it was never really on the table. The fact that today it remains the default legal position is meaningless. Since his company are consumers and do not produce anything it's easy to understand that he does not care about the implications of no deal. You, he and any collective of people can credibly claim that no deal is what you voted for in ticking the leave box but it's incredible to state as matter of fact that all 17.4 million votes were identically minded on that.

And I quote:

"On the 29th March, if we have no deal and I call it free trade and be immediately better off by not paying £39B" 

WTO is not free trade, we walk away from 53 free trade agreements if we leave the EU on WTO terms

The £39B is not sitting in a bank account waiting to be spent on something else.

We also wouldn't pay the £39B if we remained.

"You can ignore the economists and weigh it up for yourself"

Ignore the economists and weigh it up from yourself - take the advice of someone educated as a lawyer who serves cheap alcohol and serves sling and ping meals for a living in an environment with zero atmosphere. Well no thanks, I've learnt to take legal advice from lawyers with a pinch of salt let alone economics advice from them...

"You can get control of the fishing, that's a tangible thing you can weigh up"

Who are we going to sell the fish to? Don't tell me we can flood Wetherspoons with free fish...

"You can remove the tarrifs, the invisible tarrifs you pay on oranges, rice and 12 thousand other products. We collect it here and send it to Europe so you can reduce prices here, plus our democracy"

This is very convenient, although not as straightforward as that, for an importer but what about our exports?

Oranges come from Spain with no tarrif, when oranges are not in season in Spain we get them tarrif free from elsewhere.

We are part of Europe, the tarrifs are collected from all member states and all member states benefit from them.

No deal Brexit will affect the £, so prices in the shops are likely to rise since we'll be importing all these products.

"We'll be better from day one and it'll continue to get better"

He thinks he'll be better off and doesn't seem to care about others

I'm getting fed up hearing about these ardent Brexiteers claiming to be holding their views based on altruistic values and espousing that people who do not align with these views as liars and heretics.

Finally yes, it's a free country and you can express your opinion and those opinions can be challenged, that's the basis of democracy.

So what exactly did we vote to leave?

If the EU won't be reasonable and we cant secure a free trade deal, and by that I mean a deal in the same way the rest of the world trades, then a wto brexit is exactly what we voted for, it really is as simple as that, it's just being clouded by remains who are trying to overturn our largest democratic vote in history. 

Edited by 12gauge82
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55 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

The real irony is he's promoting something that never is nor ever was going to happen, you, he and others may have voted for it but it was never really on the table.

What gives you that idea, it was, is , and will always be on the table, because thats what happens if we leave without a deal !
Unless of course we dont leave at all, then youve really got problems, trust me.

 

58 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

The fact that today it remains the default legal position is meaningless.

In what way is it 'meaningless' that statement makes no sense ?

 

59 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

You, he and any collective of people can credibly claim that no deal is what you voted for in ticking the leave box but it's incredible to state as matter of fact that all 17.4 million votes were identically minded on that.

No, but you could say that 17.4 million people (the majority) decided they wanted to leave the EU in some way, maybe any way ?
I didnt hear leavers saying, 'Well it all depends if we get a good deal' or 'Im not voting for it if we get no deal' as they would be remainers !
They just stated , by putting their x in that box , that they wanted OUT.
And you are just dressing up the 3 year old argument in new clothes of  'They didnt know what they were voting for'
Give it a rest , no one is interested, we voted by majority to leave, and there is absolutely no indication that the majority has changed its mind, despite the smoke and mirrors, and totally undemocratic parlour games being played by Parliament.

Hve to be quick because Im working , but here we go..

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

WTO is not free trade, we walk away from 53 free trade agreements if we leave the EU on WTO terms  Dont need trade agreements with WTO

The £39B is not sitting in a bank account waiting to be spent on something else. No , its waiting to come out of your bank account via taxes.

We also wouldn't pay the £39B if we remained. No, but it would continue to cost circa £10 bn EVERY year we stayed, plus come 2020 we lose out rebate , another 5 bn a year on top, very weak argument there.

 

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Just now, 12gauge82 said:

So what exactly did we vote to leave?

If the EU won't be reasonable and we cant secure a free trade deal, and by that I mean a deal in the same way the rest of the world trades, then a wto brexit is exactly what we voted for, it really is as simple as that, it's just being clouded by remains who are trying to overturn our largest democratic vote in history. 

I can't answer that question for you but it was the scenario that we now find ourselves in which was a significant factor in my voting remain.

It's not in the EUs interest to be reasonable. See my previous point above.

But it's not as simple as that, it's far from simple and the logic that WTO is in that case what you ALL voted for is flawed in my opinion.

Ongoing objection and counter argument is one of the key pillars of democracy.

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1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

"You can ignore the economists and weigh it up for yourself"

Ignore the economists and weigh it up from yourself - take the advice of someone educated as a lawyer who serves cheap alcohol and serves sling and ping meals for a living in an environment with zero atmosphere. Well no thanks, I've learnt to take legal advice from lawyers with a pinch of salt let alone economics advice from them...

 

Really ? , hes trained as a lawyer and runs a business that you dont care for ?
Not worth listening to, then dont, its just his opinion !

 

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

"You can get control of the fishing, that's a tangible thing you can weigh up"

Who are we going to sell the fish to? Don't tell me we can flood Wetherspoons with free fish...

Ill leave who buys the fish up to the fisherman and the consumers, you cant sell it , if you cant catch it !?

 

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

"We'll be better from day one and it'll continue to get better"

He thinks he'll be better off and doesn't seem to care about others

I'm getting fed up hearing about these ardent Brexiteers claiming to be holding their views based on altruistic values and espousing that people who do not align with these views as liars and heretics.

He says WE'LL be better off, thats not HE WILL  be better off.

Liars and heretics ? 

heretic
/ˈhɛrɪtɪk/
noun
  1. a person believing in or practising religious heresy.
    synonyms: dissident, dissenter, nonconformist, unorthodox thinker, heterodox thinker, apostate, freethinker, iconoclast, schismatic, renegade; More
       
    • a person holding an opinion at odds with what is generally accepted.
       
      Its generally accepted, and was promised by the people running the show , that the vote would be respected, yes ?
      Most of Parliament voted to trigger article 50, 90 % of their manifestos also promised to honour the Brexit result.
      So who are the liars ?
      1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

      Finally yes, it's a free country and you can express your opinion and those opinions can be challenged, that's the basis of democracy.

      The basis of democracy is also to let the people decide, via majority vote, the course of the group/nation/state the direction of such.
      Something Parliament needs reminding of.

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4 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

What gives you that idea, it was, is , and will always be on the table, because thats what happens if we leave without a deal !
Unless of course we dont leave at all, then youve really got problems, trust me.

In what way is it 'meaningless' that statement makes no sense ?

I don't believe we will leave without a deal and that is why I believe the whole notion of no deal has been meaningless from day one except for the purpose of a negotiating lever (which has not been exercised at all well).

I don't see how I'll have problems if we don't leave at all, for me all my problems appear to be in leaving, either with no deal or with the TM deal. I didn't vote for any of this nonsense.

 

9 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

No, but you could say that 17.4 million people (the majority) decided they wanted to leave the EU in some way, maybe any way ?
I didnt hear leavers saying, 'Well it all depends if we get a good deal' or 'Im not voting for it if we get no deal' as they would be remainers !
They just stated , by putting their x in that box , that they wanted OUT.
And you are just dressing up the 3 year old argument in new clothes of  'They didnt know what they were voting for'
Give it a rest , no one is interested, we voted by majority to leave, and there is absolutely no indication that the majority has changed its mind, despite the smoke and mirrors, and totally undemocratic parlour games being played by Parliament.

Hve to be quick because Im working , but here we go..

 

 Absolutely - 17.4M votes to leave in some way, to state any way is a bit of a stretch in my opinion.

I'm not trying to dress it up at all but aren't you actually conceding that leavers didn't know what they were voting for - but that isn't even important any more.

Not sure how you can definitively state that there is absolutely no indication that the majority has changed, how could anyone possibly know!?

Look, I'm not looking for a second vote, we need this whole nonsense to stop as I've already said no deal or no Brexit for me.

1 minute ago, Rewulf said:

Really ? , hes trained as a lawyer and runs a business that you dont care for ?
Not worth listening to, then dont, its just his opinion !

 

Ill leave who buys the fish up to the fisherman and the consumers, you cant sell it , if you cant catch it !?

 

He says WE'LL be better off, thats not HE WILL  be better off.

Liars and heretics ? 

heretic
/ˈhɛrɪtɪk/
noun
  1. a person believing in or practising religious heresy.
    synonyms: dissident, dissenter, nonconformist, unorthodox thinker, heterodox thinker, apostate, freethinker, iconoclast, schismatic, renegade; More
       
    • a person holding an opinion at odds with what is generally accepted.
       
      Its generally accepted, and was promised by the people running the show , that the vote would be respected, yes ?
      Most of Parliament voted to trigger article 50, 90 % of their manifestos also promised to honour the Brexit result.
      So who are the liars ?

      The basis of democracy is also to let the people decide, via majority vote, the course of the group/nation/state the direction of such.
      Something Parliament needs reminding of.

We're going round in circles here...

How about we focus on the downstream scenarios as they are pretty much the only thing relevant at this stage?

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5 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

We're going round in circles here...

How about we focus on the downstream scenarios as they are pretty much the only thing relevant at this stage?

Pointless until we know which path this is going to take.
People from both sides will try and tell you whats going to happen in whatever scenario , and all pro remain predictions so far have been proved false.
Pro leave predictions have not promised a land of milk and honey, this is often an argument used by remain, most leave scenarios depict some difficulty, but manageable.

The erosion of trust in politicians is the only sure factor here.

 

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Just now, Rewulf said:

Pointless until we know which path this is going to take.
People from both sides will try and tell you whats going to happen in whatever scenario , and all pro remain predictions so far have been proved false.
Pro leave predictions have not promised a land of milk and honey, this is often an argument used by remain, most leave scenarios depict some difficulty, but manageable.

The erosion of trust in politicians is the only sure factor here.

 

I don't mean economic type scenarios, I mean the decision tree that leads to all the various potential leave and stay outcomes.

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