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54 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I can't answer that question for you but it was the scenario that we now find ourselves in which was a significant factor in my voting remain.

It's not in the EUs interest to be reasonable. See my previous point above.

But it's not as simple as that, it's far from simple and the logic that WTO is in that case what you ALL voted for is flawed in my opinion.

Ongoing objection and counter argument is one of the key pillars of democracy.

I can answer it for you, we voted to leave the EU, which means to leave its membership and all its core rules. The only way of doing that would be via a new free trade deal I.e one that doesn't need to adhear to its core rules like free movement of people, which the EU has always said is impossible, or via a hard brexit, that's it, it really is that simple, the only confusion is being caused by people trying to overturn the vote! 

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I'm not trying to dress it up at all but aren't you actually conceding that leavers didn't know what they were voting for - but that isn't even important any more.

Next you will be telling us that Remainers knew what they were voting for. As no-one knows what the case would be if we stayed or left, it is just silly to keep peddling this garbage.

In simple terms - the terms that were on the ballot paper - remain or leave.

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4 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I can answer it for you, we voted to leave the EU, which means to leave its membership and all its core rules. The only way of doing that would be via a new free trade deal I.e one that doesn't need to adhear to its core rules like free movement of people, which the EU has always said is impossible, or via a hard brexit, that's it, it really is that simple, the only confusion is being caused by people trying to overturn the vote! 

Best you lobby your MP to vote on the TM deal then because as things stand that's about the only thing left on the table that looks anything like leave.

One of the key issues demonstrated here and elsewhere is that the leave camp is not united.

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8 minutes ago, Jaymo said:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6816733/Nigel-Farage-leads-gaggle-soggy-windswept-pro-Brexiteers-270-mile-March-Leave-trek.html

 

Oh, I do hope the infrastructure can cope with the huge amount of demonstrators- is this how a ‘no brexit’ demo would look like?

Retired John Cecil, 77, of Esh Winning, County Durham described Mr Farage as 'an absolute star' as he joined the march this morning.

He said: 'I'm taking part today because we believe in democracy and it's been taken away from us.

'I hope it will bring some tensions but in the short term I don't think it will make a difference.

'All we can do is turn the support and noise up. Farage is a star, an absolute star.'

David Hardman arrived at the beginning of the march with a number of remain supporters to carry out a counter protest.

The 51-year-old design director from Newcastle said: 'We have pointed out that Sunderland is going to lose the most from Brexit.

'Most of Nissan's factory sales, 76 per cent of their cars are sold in Europe. This is a shame, they should be ashamed of themselves pretending they are doing the Jarrow march.

'A march where people were starving and living in poverty. Now they are marching for poverty.The North East is is the region that will lose the most.'  

Imagine the irony of more remain supporters taking part than leavers...

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One of the key issues demonstrated here and elsewhere is that the leave camp is not united.

That amply demonstrates what can happen when poor losers start to undermine democracy. They ought to hang their heads in shame. They accepted the Referendum decision when they stood at the election, but have suddenly had a change of heart.

They should have accepted what they promised and tried to help us leave with the best terms, but just leave if all else failed.

Edited by Gordon R
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47 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I don't mean economic type scenarios, I mean the decision tree that leads to all the various potential leave and stay outcomes.

Again pointless.
Whatever the tree looks like now, something will come up in a week or two to make it irrelevant,.
Look at trees from last year or even a couple of months ago, waste of time.

There are several constants which are set in stone.
1.We voted , leave won, MPs and government promised to honour it.

2.The EU dont want us to leave, not because they love us, but because its going to cost them, it also ruins the plan for more integration/superstate.
So will not give us a decent deal.

3.The majority of the MPs dont want to honour it, but for the most part, are not prepared to blatently scupper it and anger the majority of the electorate (not unless they can get away with it)

4.The default position therefore, legally and morally/democratically , is leave, and without a deal or delays or a last minute acceptance of Mays BRINO deal, that means leave in 2 weeks time with no deal/ WTO terms.

We can dance around this, fudge it, delay it, vote to remove it, or pretend its not happening, but this is what they voted for , this is the 'cliff edge' they have backed themselves up against.
They can avoid it by simply voting for Mays deal, but they cant because A.They dont really want to leave. B.The Irish backstop is the EU s trojan horse to scupper Brexit, and C . They think if they drag it on long enough, people will get bored and forget all about it.
Not one of these options stop us leaving on March 29th with no deal, unless they vote to stop article 50 , or the EU grants an extension UNANIMOUSLY , which may be a problem :yahoo:

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What worries me now is now a 2nd ref has been ruled out, enough of the scrotes that were hoping to scupper brexit via that route (Vince Cable being a prime example) might now vote for the deal. I think the next vote will be much much closer. I do hope not.

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16 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Again pointless.
Whatever the tree looks like now, something will come up in a week or two to make it irrelevant,.
Look at trees from last year or even a couple of months ago, waste of time.

There are several constants which are set in stone.
1.We voted , leave won, MPs and government promised to honour it.

2.The EU dont want us to leave, not because they love us, but because its going to cost them, it also ruins the plan for more integration/superstate.
So will not give us a decent deal.

3.The majority of the MPs dont want to honour it, but for the most part, are not prepared to blatently scupper it and anger the majority of the electorate (not unless they can get away with it)

4.The default position therefore, legally and morally/democratically , is leave, and without a deal or delays or a last minute acceptance of Mays BRINO deal, that means leave in 2 weeks time with no deal/ WTO terms.

We can dance around this, fudge it, delay it, vote to remove it, or pretend its not happening, but this is what they voted for , this is the 'cliff edge' they have backed themselves up against.
They can avoid it by simply voting for Mays deal, but they cant because A.They dont really want to leave. B.The Irish backstop is the EU s trojan horse to scupper Brexit, and C . They think if they drag it on long enough, people will get bored and forget all about it.
Not one of these options stop us leaving on March 29th with no deal, unless they vote to stop article 50 , or the EU grants an extension UNANIMOUSLY , which may be a problem :yahoo:

I agree with most of this! Are you not concerned of the scenario where May's deal is rejected, the EU don't grant the extension and Parliament vote to revoke article 50? Would you put that past them?

11 minutes ago, toxo said:

What worries me now is now a 2nd ref has been ruled out, enough of the scrotes that were hoping to scupper brexit via that route (Vince Cable being a prime example) might now vote for the deal. I think the next vote will be much much closer. I do hope not.

I still think the TM deal being approved and a small extension granted by the EU is most probable outcome.

But the 2nd referendum hasn't been ruled out indefinitely by the way.

Edited by Raja Clavata
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We had a annual leave embargo placed on us last year to start from end of March until middle of May, this meant staff paying out lots of money for child minding etc during the Easter holidays and also parents like me unable to go away with their families or spend time with the families over Easter, now we are faced with a delay nothing is bookable in Easter now as it's too late and a 3 month delay puts a new embargo into beginning July affecting the big summer holiday. 

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1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

Best you lobby your MP to vote on the TM deal then because as things stand that's about the only thing left on the table that looks anything like leave.

One of the key issues demonstrated here and elsewhere is that the leave camp is not united.

And now we get to the heart of the problem, the country has spoken loud and clear it wants to leave, but the majority of politicians in power don't want us to, so they refuse to action the referendum result. 

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

Just read that Farage doesn't intend to complete the march, is the man not capable of seeing anything through... 

I think his time can be better spent on getting us out than walking the entire 200 miles, it's nothing more than remoaner spin! 

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2 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

I agree with most of this! Are you not concerned of the scenario where May's deal is rejected, the EU don't grant the extension and Parliament vote to revoke article 50? Would you put that past them

That would collapse the government. 

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15 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

I can answer it for you, we voted to leave the EU, which means to leave its membership and all its core rules. The only way of doing that would be via a new free trade deal I.e one that doesn't need to adhear to its core rules like free movement of people, which the EU has always said is impossible, or via a hard brexit, that's it, it really is that simple, the only confusion is being caused by people trying to overturn the vote! 

Exactly ,it really was & is as simple as that  !

But there are non so deaf as those that do not wish to hear.........

I think we have a clear idea of where the problems have arisen from and who we must punish via the ballot box now! (if they accept any future vote results).

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Having read the above Peston piece ,I don`t see how the DUP could be expected to change stance now,and as for them being blamed ,those south of the border  should take the blame,it is they and the EU who weaponised the border issue in order to create the mess that we now have.

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3 hours ago, matone said:

Having read the above Peston piece ,I don`t see how the DUP could be expected to change stance now,and as for them being blamed ,those south of the border  should take the blame,it is they and the EU who weaponised the border issue in order to create the mess that we now have.

I agree with this, the DUP have been clear from day one that they wouldn't accept being treated differently to the rest of the UK, its the EU, Theresa May and other remoaner MPs who have caused the issue and they alone hold the blame for the situation the country is now in. 

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2 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

I agree with this, the DUP have been clear from day one that they wouldn't accept being treated differently to the rest of the UK, its the EU, Theresa May and other remoaner MPs who have caused the issue and they alone hold the blame for the situation the country is now in. 

DUP are only about ten votes aren't they? Don't blame them at all for not wanting the border and getting everything they can out of May while they can,  you can be sure that once there not needed they'll be forgotten about.

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the DUP have been clear from day one that they wouldn't accept being treated differently to the rest of the UK, its the EU,

Listening to Andrew Marr this morning talking to Hammond about a supposed promise of money for the DUP, Hammond wouldn't give a straight answer.

Time will tell, see what happens in a few days if they've changed their stance on which way they vote.

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