Brexit - merged threads

[Medic1281]

3 minutes ago, oowee said:

 

What is the democratic thing to do if the people have changed their mind? 

Have they changed their mind?

[islandgun]

5 minutes ago, oowee said:

 

What is the democratic thing to do if the people have changed their mind? 

Good point but people can change their minds daily !  when do you make a decision,  how many alternative votes does it take.. tbh if we had voted to remain i would have been happy to get on with my life............... 

[Good shot?]

Have another referendum in xxx years time but only if we leave now under a no deal' because that is the best deal we will get from the current Politicians and the EU.

I have thought that from day one.

Edited April 7, 2019 by Good shot?
Spelling edit.

[walshie]

2 minutes ago, oowee said:

 

What is the democratic thing to do if the people have changed their mind? 

Firstly don't assume anyone has changed their mind. Secondly implement the outcome of the first result.

Assuming let's say Corbyn won an election, ever, in his life, and became PM. Should we wait till the Pickfords lorry was loading his stuff into no.10 then have another election, should we have another election immediately the results are read out, or should we let him get in , ****** it up then have another vote?

How often should these "confirmation referendums" happen? Is it a fixed timescale? If it was 5 years, the government would drag out any results they didn't like for that long. Or is it when a certain group get uppity? If we did have another referendum and Remain won (they wouldn't) should we have another in case people have changed their minds? If Leave won again, would Remain accept it? Could we have another just in case? It's an exercise in futility. 

It's a pipe-dream that we could have another vote and we would come up with the "right" answer and everything could go back to being hunky-dory, but the fact is the EU would try to punish us for daring to try to leave the federal superstate to make sure others don't dare disobey. 

A50 could and should have been invoked almost immediately. We could have left the day after. 9 months to implement is a joke and taking the whole 2 years (and then some) not to agree anything is purely timewasting for the sake of it. The 2 years was there in case of a deadlock then the law states we leave with no deal. It doesn't say mess about for the whole period then try to agree a deal in the last few weeks. Procrastination at it's finest.

It's still being tested in the High Court whether that snivelling wretch May had the power to extend A50 anyway. We might already be out. 

[Bazooka Joe]

Quote

What is the democratic thing to do if the people have changed their mind? 

Not according to the latest poll.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-poll-reveals-all-of-england-and-wales-now-favour-no-deal-except-london-a4108916.html

[walshie]

 

[Raja Clavata]

6 hours ago, oowee said:

Where is the evidence that The remain side over spent on it's budget?

Whilst remain supporters did not vote for the mess there will be many that expected it. I thought it would be a lot worse with the trade negotiations than this but we have not got that far yet. Friends in Trade Dept say that it will take years to agree agri trade rules. You might expect farming practices (particularly meat) to change wholesale to meet specific tarriffs. 

Where is the evidence that the majority of farmers voted leave? All of the farming (with the exception of fishing) representative bodies agree that out of the EU will be a worse outcome for the industry without heavy subsidy, but I guess they are allways going to say that. The farmers that I talk to seem more concerned about access to labour for general farm work where they have mostly polish employees. 

Where is the evidence forr this? 

Valid points but I’m picking my battles and to be fair 12gauge is being decent about the whole discussion. I’m in this thread to try to understand different perspectives and get my head around the whole mess.

As I’d already agreed with 12gauge we should try to focus on the way forward rather than all the shenanigans to date tho we should reflect on the past if we find ourselves back where we started from.

[Mice!]

3 hours ago, oowee said:

 

What is the democratic thing to do if the people have changed their mind? 

Well that's funny "this is a once in a lifetime vote said Cameron!!" They've yet to act on the vote.

I imagine some have changed their minds, on both sides. But we voted, biggest ever turn out and were still waiting for the result to be accepted and acted on.

OUT won, democracy demands we leave otherwise anarchy will rule.

[oowee]

2 hours ago, Bazooka Joe said:

Not according to the latest poll.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-poll-reveals-all-of-england-and-wales-now-favour-no-deal-except-london-a4108916.html

This pol does not ask or answer that question. 

2 minutes ago, Mice! said:

Well that's funny "this is a once in a lifetime vote said Cameron!!" They've yet to act on the vote.

I imagine some have changed their minds, on both sides. But we voted, biggest ever turn out and were still waiting for the result to be accepted and acted on.

OUT won, democracy demands we leave otherwise anarchy will rule.

No politician can ever tell you what you can and can't vote for. 

 

[Rewulf]

8 hours ago, oowee said:

This pol does not ask or answer that question. 

No politician can ever tell you what you can and can't vote for. 

 

They tell you to vote for them don't they? 

And by extension, their policy, they promise to implement that policy, sometimes they even carry it out. 

This is interesting https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/08/uk-more-willing-embrace-authoritarianism-warn-hansard-audit-political-engagement

We are crying out for strong leadership, but more importantly, leaders who actually carry out what they promised to do. 

I keep saying this, and I can't stress it enough, we have permanent damage to our political system due to inactive leadership and cross party meddling, there's a rocky road ahead, and anything can happen now. 

[Bazooka Joe]

Quote

This pol does not ask or answer that question. 

Yes it does, people have changed their mind, MORE have come onto the leave side.

Twist it anyway you want, it's the result of the poll that's says it all.

Any proof that people have changed their mind to remain.?

More people are wanting OUT, roll on Friday.

[ShootingEgg]

1 hour ago, Bazooka Joe said:

 

More people are wanting OUT, roll on Friday.

For the next extension... You know it's going to happen... 

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, Bazooka Joe said:

Any proof that people have changed their mind to remain.?

Well if this completely unbiased site based on 'open' democracy is anything to go by , loads of 'strong Brexiters' 

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/i-was-strong-brexiteer-now-we-must-swallow-our-pride-and-think-again/?fbclid=IwAR1sg7Ja7knsH1lceuSV2JH4DE9d61knfWG3Nk3jAd3DNurGs5mFBgwaIQc

Take note of the header at the top

'Who's behind the ‘dark money’ bankrolling our politics?'

Then check out exactly who runs and  funds OpenDemocracy.
Hard lefties and remainers, guest contributers like Owen jones, george soros (who funds it too) Chukka and all the other usual suspects.
Contributions from Islamic extremist funding Joseph Roundtree.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/radical-progressivism/

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/oureconomy/attack-clones-return-complex-debt-instruments/
The content is pretty dire, a lot of it sounds just like a soros essay, so maybe they should investigate their own 'dark money'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenDemocracy

A democracy organisation run by foreign money and manned by anti democracy activists.
You couldnt make it up, but like the subject piece, you actually can.

 

[Mice!]

44 minutes ago, ShootingEgg said:

For the next extension... You know it's going to happen... 

Heard it called a flextension on the radio this morning 😭😭 

[12gauge82]

I think the best thing anyone who voted leave can do now is accept brexit isn't going to happen, we can use the ballot box to punish those we feel responsible, but as a country we need to come back together. The biggest issue for me now isn't even brexit although I still believe we'd be far better off out, but we need huge political reform, as our system has been shown to be completely corrupt and self serving. 

[MacSxS]

5 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I think the best thing anyone who voted leave can do now is accept brexit isn't going to happen, we can use the ballot box to punish those we feel responsible, but as a country we need to come back together. The biggest issue for me now isn't even brexit although I still believe we'd be far better off out, but we need huge political reform, as our system has been shown to be completely corrupt and self serving. 

i agree

[Rewulf]

7 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I think the best thing anyone who voted leave can do now is accept brexit isn't going to happen, we can use the ballot box to punish those we feel responsible, but as a country we need to come back together. The biggest issue for me now isn't even brexit although I still believe we'd be far better off out, but we need huge political reform, as our system has been shown to be completely corrupt and self serving. 

 

2 minutes ago, MacSxS said:

i agree

3 years till the next compulsory election, can you wait that long.?
They are banking on you all forgetting about it by then !

Keep your eyes on the high court case regarding the A50 extension, there is evidence to suggest that we are technically already out of the EU .
Keep the pressure up, keep talking about it.
Dont let them get away with it, next time it could be something even worse they bend us over for.

[islandgun]

13 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I think the best thing anyone who voted leave can do now is accept brexit isn't going to happen, we can use the ballot box to punish those we feel responsible, but as a country we need to come back together. The biggest issue for me now isn't even brexit although I still believe we'd be far better off out, but we need huge political reform, as our system has been shown to be completely corrupt and self serving. 

makes sense, I too have lost the will to brex..  The political reform will really need to be very huge before i vote for anyone again [I lost all respect for any politician years ago]

Edited April 8, 2019 by islandgun

[12gauge82]

Just now, Rewulf said:

 

3 years till the next compulsory election, can you wait that long.?
They are banking on you all forgetting about it by then !

Keep your eyes on the high court case regarding the A50 extension, there is evidence to suggest that we are technically already out of the EU .
Keep the pressure up, keep talking about it.
Dont let them get away with it, next time it could be something even worse they bend us over for.

Yeah I can definitely see your point, I just don't want to see the country continue with the infighting, accusations and hate, I hope whatever side of the debate everyones on we can hopefully all agree that it's politician's that have caused the mess and not those who cast their vote with the best of intentions with the life experience and information they had available to them at the time. 

[JohnfromUK]

13 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I think the best thing anyone who voted leave can do now is accept brexit isn't going to happen, we can use the ballot box to punish those we feel responsible, but as a country we need to come back together. The biggest issue for me now isn't even brexit although I still believe we'd be far better off out, but we need huge political reform, as our system has been shown to be completely corrupt and self serving. 

I don't disagree ......... but with a reservation - and it is a big one;

In my view, a 5 year period of a Corbyn style left wing government would do FAR FAR more damage both in the short term, and to our long term prospects of doing anything sensible Brexit wise because it would wreck the economy, and loose us allies (esp the USA) with whom we need to trade if we are ever outside Europe.

I for one would therefore not do anything that risked putting such a government in power.  I will vote to show my displeasure in any EU elections, but I will not risk a Corbyn/hard left government ........ added to which my own sitting (Tory) MP has behaved OK and supported leave throughout this fiasco.

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, 12gauge82 said:

Yeah I can definitely see your point, I just don't want to see the country continue with the infighting, accusations and hate, I hope whatever side of the debate everyones on we can hopefully all agree that it's politician's that have caused the mess and not those who cast their vote with the best of intentions with the life experience and information they had available to them at the time. 

Its the politicians from both sides that have caused and fueled the division.
They will continue to do so, in the hope that they can use it to detract , from the fundamentally simple FACT that they should have reached a consensus between themselves, that the country voted, by majority , to leave.
It was OUR vote, not theirs.
They have stolen it, and we need to take it back from them.
They keep threatening another vote, another GE , but they wont do it, just in case it goes the WRONG way again, then they might have to actually honour it, like they should have done the first time !
May is sat there saying, if we (as in Parliament) dont accept the EU s deal, we can possibly kiss leaving goodbye.
What kind of logic is that, the law clearly states, the opposite is true, we leave with no WA passed.

Did I miss the bit where they changed the law ?
I dont believe I did, and they should know , they all voted for it and passed it.

[Good shot?]

1 hour ago, Mice! said:

Heard it called a flextension on the radio this morning 😭😭 

Is that like a 'semi' extension that does no one any good?

[oowee]

45 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I think the best thing anyone who voted leave can do now is accept brexit isn't going to happen, we can use the ballot box to punish those we feel responsible, but as a country we need to come back together. The biggest issue for me now isn't even brexit although I still believe we'd be far better off out, but we need huge political reform,

Bang on the money. Some form of Proportional representation would have avoided this mess. 

The biggest issue for me now isn't even brexit, we need huge political reform, as our system is unable to deal with long term complex issues. (Brexit, Knife crime, NHS, immigration, housing, pensions, ageing population, sustainability). 

28 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Yeah I can definitely see your point, I just don't want to see the country continue with the infighting, accusations and hate, I hope whatever side of the debate everyones on we can hopefully all agree that it's politician's that have caused the mess and not those who cast their vote with the best of intentions with the life experience and information they had available to them at the time. 

Written, composed, managed and trashed by the Tories yes. 

Well said. If Brexit had been written in a constructive way there may well have been a far greater support. The two party system does not allow it. 

[Rewulf]

18 minutes ago, oowee said:

Bang on the money. Some form of Proportional representation would have avoided this mess. 

Please explain what you mean, for a decision as big as this affecting the whole country, how would that work ?

19 minutes ago, oowee said:

Written, composed, managed and trashed by the Tories yes. 

You cant just blame one side ! 
If labour had a leadership  that wanted the same as its voters , they could have mounted a united front, to offer a sensible alternative.

They did nothing, except offer a solution that  no one who voted leave would go for, and thats why they did it.
More interested in political manoeuvres  that working to find an answer, they put the party, before the people who vote for them ! Which is typical lefty/communism.

24 minutes ago, oowee said:

Well said. If Brexit had been written in a constructive way there may well have been a far greater support. The two party system does not allow it. 

Brexit is constructed by the EU , article 50 is written by the EU , for the EU .
And deliberately designed to make leaving difficult, the tories failed to recognise this, or did, and worked to use this to frustrate Brexit.

Its too late to erase all this, its not going away, and people arent going to forget.

[mick miller]

What the minority of people that wish to remain fail to realise is that subverting the process so that we do not exit isn't going to put the problem back into a box. The feelings and misgivings around our membership will continue to grow and the anger at having been denied the result of a truly democratic vote will increase.

It will all just rise to the surface again, only this time with more force behind it. What those smart people who know best should have done is got behind the process of separating from the EU; for it would have certainly resulted in the sky falling in, no medicine, chlorinated chicken in every cupboard, the inability to ever leave our country again, mass unemployment, plagues of locusts etc. etc. Then, they could have extolled the virtues of remaining within the EU and, in fact, joined in all the other wonderful things that a full, dedicated membership offers like Shengen, single currency and the wet dream of full union.

 

Edited April 8, 2019 by mick miller