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5 minutes ago, mick miller said:

What the minority of people that wish to remain fail to realise is that subverting the process so that we do not exit isn't going to put the problem back into a box. The feelings and misgivings around our membership will continue to grow and the anger at having been denied the result of a truly democratic vote will increase.

It will all just rise to the surface again, only this time with more force behind it. What those smart people who know best should have done is got behind the process of separating from the EU; for it would have certainly resulted in the sky falling in, no medicine, chlorinated chicken in every cupboard, the inability to ever leave our country again, mass unemployment, plagues of locusts etc. etc. Then, they could have extolled the virtues of remaining within the EU and, in fact, joined in all the other wonderful things that a full, dedicated membership offers like Shengen, single currency and the wet dream of full union.

 

And Unicorns - you forgot the Unicorns. 

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37 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Please explain what you mean, for a decision as big as this affecting the whole country, how would that work ?

It's anyone's guess how it might work but for large scale long term issues you need consensus around the issues and objectives for change. A long term approach and an agreed plan. Above all it would not be minority pressure from within one party using populist rhetoric to fuel the flames of change, based on destroying what we have rather than building something new.

With PR the pressure would build within parliament, not in the pols. There would have be strong representation from UKIP within parliament, providing greater balance,  and better refelecting the views of the people. With change likely to be more progressive, (rather than lurching from election to election) a constructive option for brexit could have emerged. 

Instead of Cameroon trotting off to the EU with his suitcase alone, a proposition with 'cross parties' support (as opposed to cross party)would have had greater weight and be part of a long term concerted effort. Cross parties support could also have also been used to garner support within the EU political groups (something that we are unable to do at present), in the same way that groups are used for pressure within the EU now. The proposition might have been better received as it would have had wider support, be understood and more importantly have been believed.  

Either way a constructive brexit proposal with agreed aims and objectives that set out an agreed road map could have been put to the electorate. This may have received much greater support than the barely past 50% as there would be clarity of purpose. The EU would then be faced with growing pressure from within, a defined call for change from an important member state and a properly constructed road map with strong support for leave. 

You cant just blame one side ! 
If labour had a leadership  that wanted the same as its voters , they could have mounted a united front, to offer a sensible alternative.

They did nothing, except offer a solution that  no one who voted leave would go for, and thats why they did it.
More interested in political manoeuvres  that working to find an answer, they put the party, before the people who vote for them ! Which is typical lefty/communism.

Why? It is a tory masterpiece. Labour has no leadership they have been absent from the whole Tory fup. As you say Labour did nothing. 

Brexit is constructed by the EU , article 50 is written by the EU , for the EU .
And deliberately designed to make leaving difficult, the tories failed to recognise this, or did, and worked to use this to frustrate Brexit.

Its too late to erase all this, its not going away, and people arent going to forget.

People do not forget the pol tax either. 

 

 

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32 minutes ago, oowee said:

    [Abridged Quote]      A constructive brexit with agreed aims could have been put to the electorate

 

Agreed aims ?  jeez..  no one is in any sort of agreement. they cant agree about the time of day, they couldnt give a rats **** about the electorate and are only concerned about power, whether they can get in or stay in

Edited by islandgun
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27 minutes ago, oowee said:

It's anyone's guess how it might work but for large scale long term issues you need consensus around the issues and objectives for change. A long term approach and an agreed plan. Above all it would not be minority pressure from within one party using populist rhetoric to fuel the flames of change, based on destroying what we have rather than building something new.

With PR the pressure would build within parliament, not in the pols. There would have be strong representation from UKIP within parliament, providing greater balance,  and better refelecting the views of the people. With change likely to be more progressive, (rather than lurching from election to election) a constructive option for brexit could have emerged. 

You are just talking about the multi coalition parliaments that exist around Europe, all they do is bicker, forcing them into uneasy alliances of left and right, every election the game board changes and little gets done, look at the Nederlands, Switzerland and lately, the mess of Finland, nothing gets done.
I thought you were coming back with something revolutionary !
We can already have that system now, theres nothing to stop it, people just dont vote that way in this country.

 

32 minutes ago, oowee said:

Instead of Cameroon trotting off to the EU with his suitcase alone, a proposition with 'cross parties' support (as opposed to cross party)would have had greater weight and be part of a long term concerted effort. Cross parties support could also have also been used to garner support within the EU political groups (something that we are unable to do at present), in the same way that groups are used for pressure within the EU now. The proposition might have been better received as it would have had wider support, be understood and more importantly have been believed.

He couldnt do that because there was no cross party support, he was on a forlorn hope mission to head off a leave vote , that was his primary.
He came back with next to nothing, because the EU give nothing, they probably had assurances off him that he would do his utmost to make us stay.

 

35 minutes ago, oowee said:

People do not forget the pol tax either. 

As before, or the miners strike, or taking us to wars that cost billions, and caused problems with migration that will echo for decades, or all the other  mess ups that governments do.
No people dont forget, there will be 1000 s of miners who will never vote tory ever, but there are MILLIONS of people who voted leave.
Do the math, you blame the tories for it, and yes they are inept, but all the leavers I talk to blame labour.

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question...............

why is it...that all the UK now believe that a "no-deal brexit" is no longer on the table...........and yet all the EU (EU 27) including Eire are investing money in a No-deal senario

 

i thought no-deal was off the table ...am i missing something ?

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Just now, ditchman said:

question...............

why is it...that all the UK now believe that a "no-deal brexit" is no longer on the table...........and yet all the EU (EU 27) including Eire are investing money in a No-deal senario

 

i thought no-deal was off the table ...am i missing something ?

Its call suggestive rhetoric, brainwashing you into thinking it really is off the table, its not, otherwisae the EU could just refuse to do a deal and force us into staying.

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4 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

As before, or the miners strike, or taking us to wars that cost billions, and caused problems with migration that will echo for decades, or all the other  mess ups that governments do.
No people dont forget, there will be 1000 s of miners who will never vote tory ever, but there are MILLIONS of people who voted leave.
Do the math, you blame the tories for it, and yes they are inept, but all the leavers I talk to blame labour.

oowee keeps blaming the tories, with the latest being "the poll tax" personally for me Blair ruined things with his let everyone in policy, benefits for everyone, never mind everything else he did.

It all depends how old people are, poll tax riots were 1990, i had to look it up as i was only 13, so to me its just talk, same with mining its a small number of people , brexit affects everyone from age 20 now upto the OAPs.

It really takes some doing to unite the country against all politicians for there total ineptitudes in dealing with this.

10 minutes ago, ditchman said:

question...............

why is it...that all the UK now believe that a "no-deal brexit" is no longer on the table...........and yet all the EU (EU 27) including Eire are investing money in a No-deal senario

 

i thought no-deal was off the table ...am i missing something ?

We keep getting told the MPs don't want a no deal, then another lot come out saying a deal would be better than leaving without a deal, but leaving with no deal is better than not leaving, its Sn endless loop.

welcome to the matrix.

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17 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

I find the Belgian approach to Parliament rather interesting!

Exactly what Im saying , the governments coalition of parties is outnumbered by the opposition, in both houses.

Technically the government cant push anything through without the oppositions say so, it should be chaos, the only reason it isnt, is because they dont bother trying to change anything.
That way, everybody stays happy and in a job, the government that is , the people just have to lump it !

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19 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

You are just talking about the multi coalition parliaments that exist around Europe, all they do is bicker, forcing them into uneasy alliances of left and right, every election the game board changes and little gets done, look at the Nederlands, Switzerland and lately, the mess of Finland, nothing gets done.
I thought you were coming back with something revolutionary !
We can already have that system now, theres nothing to stop it, people just dont vote that way in this country.

There may be lots of bickering but they gradually move in a considered way. You can go left and right very quickly but it takes an even longer time to get anywhere.

We can't have the system as neither party will agree to PR. 

He couldnt do that because there was no cross party support, he was on a forlorn hope mission to head off a leave vote , that was his primary.
He came back with next to nothing, because the EU give nothing, they probably had assurances off him that he would do his utmost to make us stay.

He went on his own with no plan, no support and no options a bit like the brexit negotiation. You get out what you put in. Another tory fup. 

 


Do the math, you blame the tories for it, and yes they are inept, but all the leavers I talk to blame labour.

:lol:

 

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21 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Its call suggestive rhetoric, brainwashing you into thinking it really is off the table, its not, otherwisae the EU could just refuse to do a deal and force us into staying.

you would think after we beat up napolean and the boshe jonny foreighner wouldnt be so sneaky......time is coming to give them a damn good thrashing , i say.......

on a by note i see the commons is sitting (is that the right word ?)...after the sewage line burst...........they proberly dont notice the difference with the permenant stench of corruption mixed in....for them it is a "heady aroma"

Edited by ditchman
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1 minute ago, oowee said:

There may be lots of bickering but they gradually move in a considered way. You can go left and right very quickly but it takes an even longer time to get anywhere.

Whats a considered way ?  Sideways, 1 step forward 2 back ?

How can you get consensus on a direction or a way forward if the politics dont mesh ?
It all comes down to sides, every parliament has 2 sometimes 3 sides, no matter how many parties they have.

4 minutes ago, oowee said:

We can't have the system as neither party will agree to PR. 

Its bad enough now with the polar way of things.

 

5 minutes ago, oowee said:

He went on his own with no plan, no support and no options a bit like the brexit negotiation. You get out what you put in. Another tory fup. 

He went on his own with no CONVICTION, thats the problem.
He wasnt bothered about concessions.

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3 minutes ago, ditchman said:

you would think after we beat up napolean and the boshe jonny foreighner wouldnt be so sneaky......time is coming to give them a damn good thrashing , i say.......

on a by note i see the commons is sitting (is that the right word ?)...after the sewage line burst...........they proberly dont notice the difference with the permenant stench of corruption mixed in....for them it is a "heady aroma"

That heady aroma is probably the fear of whats going to happen to them next time they deem us fit to vote.

Jonny Foreigner is rising up on his own to combat his oppressors, the new hitlers and napoleons, 21 weeks in France now, police brutality reaching a peak now, I wonder if all those people pepper sprayed, beaten and water cannoned will 'forget' ?
Creating future subversives, and a deep hatred of this type of government, fuel for terrorism.

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37 minutes ago, ditchman said:

why is it...that all the UK now believe that a "no-deal brexit" is no longer on the table

Parliamentarians live in a little world of their own; on a small local scale it consists of very heavily subsidised bars and restaurants, free parking in central London, free first class rail travel, subsidised housing, all expenses paid etc, along with a very healthy salary exempt from 'pay freezes' and 'austerity', and a generous pension.  In effect they are insulated from the economic pressure most of us have to cope with.

On a wider scale - they only see what they want to see - and pretty much ignore anything they don't like the look of.

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People do not forget the pol tax either. 

Nothing wrong with the principle of the poll tax. The mistake was they got too greedy with the payments from the additional residents. In effect, with everyone paying a fair whack, we could all be paying less. As it is we're all suffering in one form or another with reduced services and as usual it's the vulnerable that are suffering most.

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6 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Nothing wrong with the principle of the poll tax.

It was a very good idea - and MUCH fairer than one person being responsible for all the local tax for a household, regardless of how many 'earners' there are in that household.

It was unfortunately allocated to Nicholas Ridley to implement:  He was the MP where I was working and at times a more arrogant and pig headed person would be hard to find.  I think had it been introduced carefully, it could have been a much fairer system.

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9 minutes ago, oowee said:

Keir is a star.  on a power trip

 

10 minutes ago, oowee said:

If you want a cool head when all around you are loosing theirs look to the lawyers in the House. 

'Then you'll be a man my son...and you you can kick them all back to wherever they came from, the weasel faced Champagne socialists ' :yes:

 

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23 minutes ago, oowee said:

Keir is a star. If you want a cool head when all around you are loosing theirs look to the lawyers in the House. 

i know doodle squat about sir kier starmer.......................but everytime i see him on TV the hackles on the back of my neck go up.............he would better placed (in my view) playing the lead part in the film Dc death ...kier von Crankenhausen....the acid bath murderer............

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3 minutes ago, ditchman said:

i know doodle squat about sir kier starmer.......................but everytime i see him on TV the hackles on the back of my neck go up.............he would better placed (in my view) playing the lead part in the film Dc death ...kier von Crankenhausen....the acid bath murderer............

Your not alone,  looks like he beats his wife :lol:

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32 minutes ago, oowee said:

Keir is a star.

The man who generated 6 'tests' for his Brexit ......... one of which was "Does it deliver the “exact same benefits” as we currently have as members of the Single Market and Customs Union?"

That was never going to happen.  Can anyone sane see the EU delivering the “exact same benefits” to a non EU member - let alone a 'previous EU member.

Either he's stupid, or he thinks we are?  (He even looks stupid, whereas I'm sure we don't (well not all of us!))

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