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    1 minute ago, oowee said:

    Thats a bit rich coming from someone reprimanded for serious misconduct. 

    "Dr Fox's actions clearly constitute a breach of the ministerial code which Dr Fox has already acknowledged. This was a failure of judgment on his part for which he has taken the ultimate responsibility in resigning office."

    And the relevance of this is?

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    Luckily an incidence of lack of judgment on one issue, doesn't mean every judgment that comes after, is deemed to be so too! 

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    The governments legal advice has been published and is "devasateing" it shows that the UK would be at the mercy of the EU and could be kept tied to them with no way of leaving. 

    We need a hard brexit, it is the best thing that could happen to the UK and the only way we can guarantee the brexit that was voted for.

     

    https://news.sky.com/story/uk-could-be-stuck-in-brexit-negotiations-for-years-legal-advice-warns-11572416

    Edited by 12gauge82

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    A deal deliberately engineered to be voted down, it has all been one big charade.  Not a single MP was whipped on Grieves amendment which says it all.  

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    And now they're talking up a Norway model brexit, aka softest possible brexit, another complete sell out, what's wrong with a Canada style deal and if not, a hard brexit, aka true brexit.

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    2 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

    I honestly believe, May is genuinely as treasonous and weak as she appears, she certainly didn't want that legal advice released.

    We also got a very good look at Cox's face stifling what I assumed were tears of abject shame that his rousing 'best for the country' performance in the house the day before had been exposed as shamefull deception of the house and the people. I doubt we'll see much more of him now.

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    I'm at the point now that as much as it shouldn't happen I'd welcome a second referendum, as long as it wasn't a fix, I'd like to see something like 1 remain, 2 hard brexit (meaning cut all ties, not even a trade deal), I'm that tired of the powers that be trying to subvert democracy, they simply cannot be trusted, so the only way to leave the hotel California is to completely crash out, even I've got to admit Mays "deal" is worse than remaining in the EU, it's virtually the same as remaining with a caveat we can't leave unless the EU agree, which would never happen. How May can look at herself in the mirror I don't know.

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    A friend of mine who voted remain would agree with you 12gauge.

    So like you he suggested a referendum on Hard brexit or Remain, with nothing in between. It would sort it out one way or another I suppose?

    Cheers

    Aled

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    1 minute ago, Aled said:

    A friend of mine who voted remain would agree with you 12gauge.

    So like you he suggested a referendum on Hard brexit or Remain, with nothing in between. It would sort it out one way or another I suppose?

    Cheers

    Aled

    It would still be a massive subversion of democracy and it is being driven by large corporations and the government against the people, but at least it would be the people who then get to chose and not some civil servant, I have no doubt however that another referendum would be fixed by giving options that split the leave vote.

    What we need is a brexit that falls back to WTO rules, we could then negotiate with the EU from a position of strength, if they wouldn't give us a free trade deal at that point, more fool them, it would hurt them more than us and in my opinion, in the long run we'd be far better off

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    15 hours ago, panoma1 said:

    Luckily an incidence of lack of judgment on one issue, doesn't mean every judgment that comes after, is deemed to be so too! 

    The electorate want our MPs to be like us but when they we don't like it.

    2 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

    I'd like to see something like 1 remain, 2 hard brexit (meaning cut all ties, not even a trade deal)

    Not too far amiss from first time round then.

    16 minutes ago, Aled said:

    So like you he suggested a referendum on Hard brexit or Remain, with nothing in between. It would sort it out one way or another I suppose?

    It didn't the first time so why now?

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    My MP (a leaver) is going to back May's deal. He says that's still a better option than no Brexit at all, which he thinks is the alternative. I'm not sure myself...

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    47 minutes ago, yod dropper said:

    The electorate want our MPs to be like us but when they we don't like it.

    Not too far amiss from first time round then.

    It didn't the first time so why now?

    Your absaloutley right, the problem is, the government has now twisted the wording because the electorate didn't vote the "right" way, I still believe we'd end up with an out result and a specific "hard" brexit referendum would prevent the government twisting the words, of course they won't allow that either, the whole thing stinks.

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    3 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

    Your absaloutley right, the problem is, the government has now twisted the wording because the electorate didn't vote the "right" way, I still believe we'd end up with an out result and a specific "hard" brexit referendum would prevent the government twisting the words, of course they won't allow that either, the whole thing stinks.

    You think that would resolve the matter ?

    First off , Remain shouldnt even be on the ballot paper, there shouldnt even be a second referendum.
    If there is one, it should ONLY be a referendum on the type of Brexit, which is - No deal/WTO rules, Canada+, Norway+ or Mays deal
    None of these options need approval from the EU ,as they have all bar one been already approved.

    Why are we letting Parliament decide ( effectively) whether we leave or stay, why has May concocted such a bad deal that Remain has come back as an option?
    Despite the fact that is has no chance of being passed, is likely to bring down her government, and has virtually no approval from any quarter, electorate or Parliament ?

    'Brexit means Brexit !'

    'There will be no 2nd referendum'

    'No deal is better than a bad deal'

    'The people have decided'

    All hollow words it would seem, and a familiar story when it comes to any sort of rejection of the EU.
    Even the option of kicking the non Brexit performing tories out of power is a bluff hand, as the spectre of a Corbynite labour government is that unpalatable to most people as to make it not an option,

    Have we been manoeuvred into this position deliberately ?
    Has this always been the plan ?
    What does that say about democracy, the way this country is run, and the EU itself ?
    What do we even do about it, buy a hi vis vest , strike ,take to the streets French style ?
    Or take it on the chin like we normally do, Brit style ?
    You want Brexit, I think youre going to have to fight for it.

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    1 hour ago, Aled said:

    A friend of mine who voted remain would agree with you 12gauge.

    So like you he suggested a referendum on Hard brexit or Remain, with nothing in between. It would sort it out one way or another I suppose?

    Cheers

    Aled

    When we voted in the referendum, we voted in essence for a Hard Brexit. It was a vote to leave the EU and all the powers and influences it had over us. It was a vote to regain our sovereignty and control of our destiny. There is no need for a second vote. Any future trade deal with the EU would be a side issiue to be determined when we are free to negotiate our own deals with any other country or trade block.

    We have got into this mess by May's stupidity/betrayal into allowing the EU to dictate terms for leaving, setting the agenda and rules. Voting down the deal and a commitment to leaving on March the 28th on WTO rules is the only sensible way forward. Any delay or acceptance of May's deal is a betrayal of democracy.

     

     

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    So many questions!

    4 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

    You think that would resolve the matter ?

    It will never resolve well because the country is (near enough) 50/50 split.  Any new one would go near 50/50, and could be either way.  I guess it would still be leave, but no one can be certain.  The underlying problem to this 50/50 ish split is that Parliament is about 60/40 in favour of remain.  I think that many in Parliament feel (but don't dare say) that Parliament (on behalf of the people, despite what the people have chosen) will make the final choice - exactly what Gina Miller wanted.

    6 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

    Why are we letting Parliament decide ( effectively) whether we leave or stay,

    Because the nature of the rules requires (and this has been clarified in this case by various court cases - initially by Miller etc.) laws are passed by Parliament.  In theory or MPs represent our views.  We know of course that in practice that is not always so, but that is a different issue.

    9 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

    why has May concocted such a bad deal that Remain has come back as an option?

    Because Europe has played hard ball and we have given in - blame our negotiators for that.  Europe wants us in - they want our money, our fish, and in future our armed forces.

    12 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

    Even the option of kicking the non Brexit performing tories out of power is a bluff hand, as the spectre of a Corbynite labour government is that unpalatable to most people

    It is highly unlikely that Corbyn would have done any better.  Kier Starmer (who is Corbyn's lead on Brexit) is a pro Single Market, pro Customs Union, pro free movement of people, in fact he is basically a remainer.  They would also have the same team of civil servants negotiating as May has.  Politicians cannot simply replace civil servants as they like anyway.

    16 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

    What does that say about democracy, the way this country is run, and the EU itself ?

    The EU always has been in full command in the driving seat.  We have given in on EVERY demand as far as I can see.  Why - well mainly because May has had no backing from Parliament for a 'hard' approach - and the threat of a 'no deal' was always a hollow one as Parliament would never pass the appropriate laws.

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    23 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

    You think that would resolve the matter ?

    First off , Remain shouldnt even be on the ballot paper, there shouldnt even be a second referendum.
    If there is one, it should ONLY be a referendum on the type of Brexit, which is - No deal/WTO rules, Canada+, Norway+ or Mays deal
    None of these options need approval from the EU ,as they have all bar one been already approved.

    Why are we letting Parliament decide ( effectively) whether we leave or stay, why has May concocted such a bad deal that Remain has come back as an option?
    Despite the fact that is has no chance of being passed, is likely to bring down her government, and has virtually no approval from any quarter, electorate or Parliament ?

    'Brexit means Brexit !'

    'There will be no 2nd referendum'

    'No deal is better than a bad deal'

    'The people have decided'

    All hollow words it would seem, and a familiar story when it comes to any sort of rejection of the EU.
    Even the option of kicking the non Brexit performing tories out of power is a bluff hand, as the spectre of a Corbynite labour government is that unpalatable to most people as to make it not an option,

    Have we been manoeuvred into this position deliberately ?
    Has this always been the plan ?
    What does that say about democracy, the way this country is run, and the EU itself ?
    What do we even do about it, buy a hi vis vest , strike ,take to the streets French style ?
    Or take it on the chin like we normally do, Brit style ?
    You want Brexit, I think youre going to have to fight for it.

    Rewulf your of course right.

    And to pick up on one of your sentences, yes, the whole brexit sarga has been manufactured since we voted leave to keep us in the EU at all costs, including at the cost of losing having any Illusion of a democratic system in the UK.

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    2 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

    It will never resolve well because the country is (near enough) 50/50 split.  Any new one would go near 50/50, and could be either way.  I guess it would still be leave, but no one can be certain.  The underlying problem to this 50/50 ish split is that Parliament is about 60/40 in favour of remain.  I think that many in Parliament feel (but don't dare say) that Parliament (on behalf of the people, despite what the people have chosen) will make the final choice - exactly what Gina Miller wanted.

    British and US party politics is usually a fairly even split too, it seems funny how we dont keep going back to the polls after every general election because its 'too close' the 2017 election being a classic case.

     

    4 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

    Because the nature of the rules requires (and this has been clarified in this case by various court cases - initially by Miller etc.) laws are passed by Parliament.  In theory or MPs represent our views.  We know of course that in practice that is not always so, but that is a different issue.

    The nature of the rules regarding the ref. was the will of the people would be carried out, the fact that miller drove a trojan horse in, shouldnt have been the end of Brexit, then , or now.

     

    6 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

    Because Europe has played hard ball and we have given in - blame our negotiators for that.  Europe wants us in - they want our money, our fish, and in future our armed forces.

    Again, that simply means the vote is being ignored, put Mays deal or WTO to a peoples vote, not Remain because May sold out.

    7 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

    The EU always has been in full command in the driving seat.  We have given in on EVERY demand as far as I can see.  Why - well mainly because May has had no backing from Parliament for a 'hard' approach - and the threat of a 'no deal' was always a hollow one as Parliament would never pass the appropriate laws.

    And again, its not Parliaments vote to reverse the decision, it was put in place to vote on the deal, if it doesnt put Mays deal through, its Hard/no deal Brexit, she said it herself.
    But now were talking about another ref. with remain on it ?!
    Where did that come from ?

    6 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

    And to pick up on one of your sentences, yes, the whole brexit sarga has been manufactured since we voted leave to keep us in the EU at all costs, including at the cost of losing having any Illusion of a democratic system in the UK.

    This will cost them in the long run I assure you, no faith in government is a bad place for a country, but a worse place for successive governments.

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    5 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

    British and US party politics is usually a fairly even split too, it seems funny how we dont keep going back to the polls after every general election because its 'too close' the 2017 election being a classic case.

     

    The nature of the rules regarding the ref. was the will of the people would be carried out, the fact that miller drove a trojan horse in, shouldnt have been the end of Brexit, then , or now.

     

    Again, that simply means the vote is being ignored, put Mays deal or WTO to a peoples vote, not Remain because May sold out.

    And again, its not Parliaments vote to reverse the decision, it was put in place to vote on the deal, if it doesnt put Mays deal through, its Hard/no deal Brexit, she said it herself.
    But now were talking about another ref. with remain on it ?!
    Where did that come from ?

    This will cost them in the long run I assure you, no faith in government is a bad place for a country, but a worse place for successive governments.

    And you had faith in previous governments 😂😂😂

    Edited by blackbird

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    2 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

    And again, its not Parliaments vote to reverse the decision, it was put in place to vote on the deal, if it doesnt put Mays deal through, its Hard/no deal Brexit, she said it herself.

    She may even think that herself - but she doesn't have the power to pass it through without legislation to enact it - and it is highly unlikely that Parliament will agree a no deal/WTO because;

    • there are sufficient in the Soubery/Grieve camp to remove her win
    • DUP probably wouldn't support it because it would mean a hard border (put in by the EU) between Eire and NI (and the EU would make it very clear it would be as awkward as possible
    • The SNP won't support it
    • The Lib Dems won't support it (they don't 'do' democracy anyway unless it comes with proportional representation)
    • Only very few Labour would support it (because Corbyn thinks may get a general election, and Starmer doesn't want a 'hard' brexit) - there is a small chance that Abbott may support it by wandering through the wrong lobby.

    In my view a hard brexit will not happen because Parliament won't allow it.  It isn't democracy, but once you are sat on those green benches, democracy is for the plebs outside.  You have the power.

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    1 hour ago, TriBsa said:

    When we voted in the referendum, we voted in essence for a Hard Brexit. It was a vote to leave the EU and all the powers and influences it had over us. It was a vote to regain our sovereignty and control of our destiny. There is no need for a second vote. Any future trade deal with the EU would be a side issiue to be determined when we are free to negotiate our own deals with any other country or trade block.

    We have got into this mess by May's stupidity/betrayal into allowing the EU to dictate terms for leaving, setting the agenda and rules. Voting down the deal and a commitment to leaving on March the 28th on WTO rules is the only sensible way forward. Any delay or acceptance of May's deal is a betrayal of democracy.

     

     

    No we voted to leave the EU nothing more nothing less.

    We do not know what those tariffs would be. It's likely that most favoured nation rates would change. WTO process will at whatever rate is set result in a huge cost to companies not just in the set up admin but in lost sales and delay at the cliff edge. Please get real we want to avoid this at all costs. If we said at the start that this is what we were going to do then we would have prepared.

    Edited by oowee

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    32 minutes ago, oowee said:

    we voted to leave the EU nothing more nothing less.

    And any agreement that means the EU has any control over the  UK is less

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