Crime and Punishment in the snowflake age

[old man]

20 hours ago, Scully said:

I saw this on the news. It would be nice to think someone was ‘waiting’ for him outside. 

The time will come when those who feel let down by the ‘justice’ services will administer their own. 

Undoubtedly true eventually but what a way to control society, by making the law abiding citizens into criminals for any reason?

[henry d]

15 hours ago, Rewulf said:

I dont think anyone thinks that people who are put in prison are 'beyond' help, but help should not come at the expense of punishment and deterrence.
This is whats getting people annoyed and deluded .

 

10 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

.... the lost causes could be warehoused in prison cheaply.

I rest my case!

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, henry d said:

 

I rest my case!

I don't think you've made one, do you beleive someone like Ian Bradey could be "helped"? If he could be "helped" do you beleive he should have been and then released back into society?

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, henry d said:

 

I rest my case!

Way to take it out of context !

There are undoubtably lost causes, child killers, serial sex offenders, terrorist murderers, that really should never be released.
A smack head who has a long history of shoplifting, may look like a lost cause, but it is possible to save them (from themselves)

Remember the friends son I mentioned earlier ?
He went through god knows how many stints of rehab, prison 5 times, totalling 2.5 years, all his teeth fell out and he got HIV off dirty needles, a lost cause?
After 10 years of being a general waste of space, he turned it round, and is now married and has a good job.
His parents money certainly helped, but it was him that made the decision to stop.
It was also him who made the decision to start, no one forced him to get into heroin.

But thats not really the point of this thread, the reason I added 'in the snowflake generation' is because I believe, and Im not alone , that the justice system is sometimes far too interested in the welfare of the perpetrator than the victim.
We are scared of 'offending' society by handing out harsh sentencing !
Well I think if you put it to a referendum, asking 'society' whether sentences were too harsh, you would get a pretty resounding  NO, or do you know different ?

It seems theres always someone somewhere saying 'its not their fault' someone whos probably never felt the sharp end of crime.
If people want to support criminals rights, then pay for their rehabilitation themselves, when they are let out, get them in their houses, around their kids.
You can extend that to refugees while were at it , people like Lily Allen, can do their bit and house them at their own expense, do their bit.
Too many people bitching about what we dont do, practice what you preach I say.

[guzzicat]

On 10/08/2018 at 10:42, old man said:

And that mirrors the attitudes of politicians, let's make any old quick decision because it won't be close enough to affect us. Not giving a fig!

How about multiple offenders facing a 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Firing squad?

[henry d]

Sorry but you said...

7 hours ago, henry d said:

I dont think anyone thinks that people who are put in prison are 'beyond' help

and he said...

7 hours ago, henry d said:

the lost causes could be warehoused in prison cheaply.

...and then puts up a defence by using Brady. Yes he could have been helped but he needed to be identified at an early stage, a form of prevention if you like, and then we would not have paid for 50+ years of incarceration, court cases etc etc. However back in the mid sixties there was very little formal rehabilitation and as a psychopath and due to his 3 concurrent life srntences he was never going to be let out so he would have been unlikely to have attended any formal rehab. As a young person in the 50`s there was no help for troubled teenagers except the crime and punishment circus so he ended up as he did.

[Gordon R]

henry d - I think that some of what you say has merit, but would only affect a small percentage of offenders. However

Quote

and then puts up a defence by using Brady. Yes he could have been helped but he needed to be identified at an early stage,

this undoes anything you might propose. Are you seriously saying that a chat would have made Brady less of the murdering, manipulative scum that he was? If you are, words fail me. It is laughable.

[12gauge82]

7 hours ago, henry d said:

Sorry but you said...

and he said...

...and then puts up a defence by using Brady. Yes he could have been helped but he needed to be identified at an early stage, a form of prevention if you like, and then we would not have paid for 50+ years of incarceration, court cases etc etc. However back in the mid sixties there was very little formal rehabilitation and as a psychopath and due to his 3 concurrent life srntences he was never going to be let out so he would have been unlikely to have attended any formal rehab. As a young person in the 50`s there was no help for troubled teenagers except the crime and punishment circus so he ended up as he did.

How could you possibly know he could be helped, I'll give you the answer, you can't.

There are some people who are not fit to be released and can't be rehabilitated, anyone who thinks they are that influential they have the power to stop a murdering psychopath from doing what they enjoy best is arrogant and deluded beyond belief.

[old man]

Henry d, you can't be serious?

By that analogy, surely 100% of the population require intervention when young?

Some society that?

Edited August 12, 2018 by old man

[Rewulf]

On 11/08/2018 at 16:54, henry d said:

Sorry but you said...

and he said...

...and then puts up a defence by using Brady. Yes he could have been helped but he needed to be identified at an early stage, a form of prevention if you like, and then we would not have paid for 50+ years of incarceration, court cases etc etc. However back in the mid sixties there was very little formal rehabilitation and as a psychopath and due to his 3 concurrent life srntences he was never going to be let out so he would have been unlikely to have attended any formal rehab. As a young person in the 50`s there was no help for troubled teenagers except the crime and punishment circus so he ended up as he did.

You see, this is what Im talking about.
How would you 'identify' him, were the signs even there? I guess we will never know, and he is just one example amongst so many, even now there are many 'unidentified' ticking away out there, ready for something or someone to trigger them into some horrific act.
You simply cant 'save ' everyone.
No matter what money and resources you pour into the social system, people will commit crimes, its in their nature.

You might counter that with 'society made them that way' but did it really ?
I will be the first to admit that modern society is a machine that will churn and spit you into the dustbin if you let it, but with a bit of effort and positive thinking, even the worst underachiever can forge a decent life for themselves.
Likewise, there are some with every opportunity and financial backup that  can mess it up, and end up in that very same dustbin

As unpleasant as that sounds, society is not beyond hope, we do move forward, and better conditions help to alleviate some of the causes.
150 years ago, hunger was a root cause of crime, some people stole food to simply not starve to death, and sentences were harsh, but it was a case of work to eat, or if you couldnt work, you stole, winter was a bad place to be with limited shelter and nothing to eat.
In the present day, there are very few people who steal just to eat, progress.

But crime still rises, violent crime, a capital city that is awash with stabbings , moped gangs, acid attacks and burglaries.
Did they all have bad childhoods ? Did the local youth club close down ,turning them all into zombie knife wielding criminals, absent fathers ?
Leaving aside the demographic of these new criminals and societies 'obvious ' fault for it all, do you seriously believe anything other than a complete disregard for the law, and total disrespect for anyone else is to blame ?

[henry d]

On 13/08/2018 at 10:13, Rewulf said:

You see, this is what Im talking about.
How would you 'identify' him, were the signs even there?  Yeah there were signs but as I said at the end of the para, there were not the systems in place then.
You simply cant 'save ' everyone. Nope, but its one starfish at a time.

You might counter that with 'society made them that way' but did it really ? Absolutely, no-one is an island, culture is what forms us from day one.
In the present day, there are very few people who steal just to eat, progress. But they are still there and it is the foodbanks, community fridges and holiday hunger programmes that stop a lot of stealing from going on.

But crime still rises, violent crime, a capital city that is awash with stabbings , moped gangs, acid attacks and burglaries.
Did they all have bad childhoods ? Did the local youth club close down ,turning them all into zombie knife wielding criminals, absent fathers ? Nope, culture again
Leaving aside the demographic of these new criminals and societies 'obvious ' fault for it all, do you seriously believe anything other than a complete disregard for the law, and total disrespect for anyone else is to blame ? If you disregard a section of a community it will live up to its reputation. Ben Drew (Plan B) has a good handle on this, video below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhtAfIw4qJY

[Newbie to this]

7 minutes ago, henry d said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhtAfIw4qJY

And what do you think that Plan B would be getting upto Today if he didn't make it in the music industry. Maybe we can give every troubled kid a recording contract and loads of money.

When I grew up you had a fear of prison and the Police, today that fear is gone.

[Rewulf]

5 minutes ago, henry d said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhtAfIw4qJY

Again ,Ill have to watch it later, keep forgetting to buy some new speakers for my work computer.

Ive seen some interviews with Plan B, and I agree he punches well above his weight and has some interesting ideas.
His early err music, was divisive and anti establishment, and to my mind fuelled a rebellion culture of disrespect of law and society, law of the jungle style.
Maybe hes trying to make amends ?

So..culture.. How do we change culture so that we dont end up in a police state ?
Pop culture ,media culture, political culture, you have the BBC flatly refusing to report anything truthfully when it comes to the demographics of gang culture in London, yet at the same time actively promotes rap and grime, plus the new 'drill' style that is directly responsible for many murders amongst its 'artists' and followers.

Back to the start, where did it go wrong, how did we end up with a 'culture' of youth gang violence and intimidation ?
I say lack of respect for the law and punishment, you say its because they have been marginalised ??
Or they could be hungry ?
Im simply not seeing what you are seeing, I know we live in completely different areas, and that could be part of it, but surely you can appreciate that some kids these days grow up not fearing the consequences of criminality, but actively seek them as a right of passage ?

[Scully]

The carrying of knives seems to be part of black inner city culture. Just last night on the news was a prime example; two male models with good futures ahead of them had an online spat regarding a girlfriend. They arranged a meet, knives were produced. Result.....one man dead and several lives and futures ruined.

[henry d]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

The carrying of knives seems to be part of black inner city culture. Just last night on the news was a prime example; two male models with good futures ahead of them had an online spat regarding a girlfriend. They arranged a meet, knives were produced. Result.....one man dead and several lives and futures ruined.

Don`t forget we kicked it off nearly 100 years ago, check out the razor gangs of Glasgow and their inner city culture, my neighbour "Hatchet" Harry has some stories!

[Scully]

32 minutes ago, henry d said:

Don`t forget we kicked it off nearly 100 years ago, check out the razor gangs of Glasgow and their inner city culture, my neighbour "Hatchet" Harry has some stories!

I wasn't disputing that at all; I'm very familiar with the exploits of Jimmy Boyle et al, and had friends from Govan who have first hand experience. 

A detective once asked a group of young blacks from inner city Birmingham why they carried knives, and the answer was 'because you wont be there when you're needed'. Sums it up really. 

[Gordon R]

Quote

Nope, but its one starfish at a time.

Platitudes are no answer. What you propose would work in some cases, but is plainly silly to say it could work successfully on a wider scale.

At what stage would your system of a chat and support have identified Harold Shipman, Fred West et al?

[jonny705]

Does anyone not think that maybe one of the reasons, of this increasingly screwed up society, is the fact of the benefits culture, and ease of which it is acquired?

Just like many other ideas of good original intention to help the genuine needy -such as Legal aid, free health care, child benefits just gets milked by people with no moral compass /integrity.

I struggle to think of how a girl of 17 or less ,  can have a child once a year  with a different father (theoretically) until she cannot biologically conceive, and NOBODY will tell her to stop .

We all have the possibility of free education so don’t agree with what Plan B says about that –and could all potentially be really clever/skilled, BUT that takes hard work, loads of homework, study sacrifices of your free time, which most kids won’t naturally do without a role model pushing them and inspiring them – but that takes good parenting and relentless hard work – the very thing my fictitious mother above is unlikely to have.

BY never saying you have to accept responsibility for yourself and stop having as many kids as you want with no intention of ever paying for their upbringing -the state and all the hard working people who fund that will -no worries, she isn’t likely to stop.

A perfect example of that is the bedroom tax – when it was introduced, the way round it? They just had another baby , it was a simple as that ,I’ve lived on council estate’s and know a few people that avoided moving or PAYING for once in their lives by dropping another baby like you might get another job or work overtime.

I know a woman with 9 kids, some are disabled so she gets shed loads of help –she drives a shogun and the council has knocked an intermediate wall down and linked two houses into one for her and her brood to reside in –its massive –I am a Qualified sparky yet could never affords a car/ house like she has, she has never worked in her life just lies on her back like it’s a career.

She argues it’s her right like an entitlement to have as many kids, and you should be almost honoured to help her when you are lucky enough to have a job and earn money – this is the benefits culture we have encouraged to grow its madness.

I cannot see any of the kids in that situation having any kind of role model to inspire them can you?

Society                 typically hates the kids, I hate the system for allowing the people to just breed as many as they want, a career in doing nothing is not discouraged, having twenty kids with 20 dads is not even something to be ashamed of now – they hold their heads up high like it is an achievement and let /expect society to fit the bill and teachers to educate and teach them basic manners.

Grime /Drill music, trust me, is on a stratospheric rise in popularity, youth world over cannot get enough of it – poor uninspired kids relate to it , privileged kids follow it because its hip cool so it’s both segments of the spectrum.

Like Plan B says, they look to rap to get inspiration etc., and as he rightly says – it is the violence in the lyrics /videos that attracts the Labels, and gets them signed up.

My nephew is 20 lives in London and as is well in with Drill culture and is promoting some lad – he is in liaison with a major label at moment about it, and recently has got into violence and has a TAG and is up for GBH sec20 – I said what to the record company say about that?

He said your joking they loved it, makes him and them look badass –Controversy sells and promotes anything and always will.

He gets offered free clothing, watches from new companies all wanting to ride on the back of the violent associations, if one gets shot and is on the media wearing a free top, well the Publicity you get is priceless.

 These companies have no moral compass, as each young and sometime really talented person that gets shot another simply talks their place conveyer belt style, life is cheap and the money continues to roll in especially if there dead so its win win .

I asked him why you feel the need rap about stabbing up shooting your fellow brothers then.

Because it sells the records and gets the Companies interested-he says all the social media feeds once they generate a high viewing figures (and only then) have you any hope in getting some contract, they primarily are not interested in talent just likely popularity which is proven by the viewing figures first, he says if you are attracting figures in the million’s on a regular basis, you are likely to get a deal as you almost are guaranteed to sell records.

Harsh punishments don’t really work TBH, just look to the states, nicking a car gets you locked up for a while and their prisons to me don’t look easy – but they don’t deter them – these people have had no moral compass in them from childhood, and nothing to lose, their lives are hollow anyway so just don’t care, the gang culture even if inside gives a sense of belonging that the parents never did.

If it costs 65k /40K a year for a prisoner to be locked up no wonder this country is skint and the Judges CPS don’t want to send anyone down- rehabilitation if their 30 isn’t likely to work is it.

But you could say I was a hypocrite, as if someone mugged my Mum, I would hurt them really bad and happily go down – I would not care what there background was.

This is why it’s a thorny issue with many sides and passionate opinions.

Society for sure is very messed up, and IMO the benefits culture endless handouts are the root cause – it breeds a race with no meaning in their life’s – hence self-abuse with drugs alcohol to take them from thinking about it, a massive rise over say last 20 years in self harm and suicide rates amongst children really is just wrong and sad on so many level’s when originally it was to help the destitute and poor – someone has to cap the child rate in this country if you choose never to work- else it’s just going to get worse.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Yes!

[Rewulf]

I agree with most of what you say, but...
At least if theyre in prison they cant carry on hurting and terrifying people.
Build more prisons, make them earn their keep by working within them.
Make the private prison companies work to a sensible budget, £40 k pp p/a is absolutely scandalous.

Stop promoting violent music, like I say , licence funded BBC is at the forefront of pushing ethnic music like rap and grime/drill.
They set the trends, and that trend is tearing our cities apart, people involved want sacking, starting with Westwood and working up.

Bring back some kind of national service, it doesnt have to be military, just something to instil a bit of self respect.
Make it compulsory.

There are many things that can be done, but we dont have a government that will stand up and do them, as most of them are career politicians.
Theres an opportunity there for a group or party to capitalise on this.
Good, honest people who want to serve.
There must be a few left ?

 

[Westley]

On 11/08/2018 at 16:54, henry d said:

Sorry but you said...

and he said...

...and then puts up a defence by using Brady. Yes he could have been helped but he needed to be identified at an early stage, a form of prevention if you like, and then we would not have paid for 50+ years of incarceration, court cases etc etc. However back in the mid sixties there was very little formal rehabilitation and as a psychopath and due to his 3 concurrent life srntences he was never going to be let out so he would have been unlikely to have attended any formal rehab. As a young person in the 50`s there was no help for troubled teenagers except the crime and punishment circus so he ended up as he did.

Oh, I don't know, I believe his Solicitor was makin a fortune  ?        

[JohnfromUK]

59 minutes ago, jonny705 said:

Society for sure is very messed up, and IMO the benefits culture endless handouts are the root cause – it breeds a race with no meaning in their life’s – hence self-abuse with drugs alcohol to take them from thinking about it, a massive rise over say last 20 years in self harm and suicide rates amongst children really is just wrong and sad on so many level’s when originally it was to help the destitute and poor – someone has to cap the child rate in this country if you choose never to work- else it’s just going to get worse.

To take just a short quote from a long post, I think you have summed it up quite well here.

The hard bit is to cut off the false claims (who are very skilled at continuing the fraud) whilst protecting the genuine (who are not well placed or skilled to protect themselves)

[jonny705]

5 hours ago, Rewulf said:

I agree with most of what you say, but...
At least if theyre in prison they cant carry on hurting and terrifying people.
Build more prisons, make them earn their keep by working within them.
Make the private prison companies work to a sensible budget, £40 k pp p/a is absolutely scandalous.

Stop promoting violent music, like I say , licence funded BBC is at the forefront of pushing ethnic music like rap and grime/drill.
They set the trends, and that trend is tearing our cities apart, people involved want sacking, starting with Westwood and working up. 

Bring back some kind of national service, it doesnt have to be military, just something to instil a bit of self respect.
Make it compulsory.

There are many things that can be done, but we dont have a government that will stand up and do them, as most of them are career politicians.
Theres an opportunity there for a group or party to capitalise on this.
Good, honest people who want to serve.
There must be a few left ?

 

Basically agree, BUT ......

My nephew comes from a privilege background, but ironically as he has been giving everything on a plate so has no real identity or respect himself- if he ends up going down for GBH charge in London nick will be looked after by his 'posse'.

But like I have tried to tell him –yes do you then have any concept of the fact you will then ‘OWE’ them something when you get out? And you will not be able to just walk away? Half of me think’s it will be good -a massive reality check -the other half thinks he will come out full ‘gansta’ and never be able to leave that lifestyle.

Tim Westwood was always kinda ‘dissed’ originally as he is a white guy pretending to be black vibe, but when he got shot his cred went up and that was years ago.

The Social media feeds even if banned are useless as they all use feeds/links to videos that you will know if you know kind of thing-He showed me a mate of his that had released a dissing video to some other gang in London – it had address like (http:/wfiuwfa7347sh588h45sf) basically you would have no clue to find it as such. It’s mostly underground, but record companies have feeds as well basically, and can see if it is popular.

If you constantly re-offend after having rehabilitation programmes tried on you when inside, after a certain number of strikes your out –and get moved to a harsh prison system which makes you work for your food/accommodation would be a nice deterrent. I think of the chain gang/breaking rocks all day would be a good incentive not to go back.

Basically if you cannot be bothered after help to change, well you WILL be punished.

A cap on children allowed if you don’t work, and National service type thing if you choose not to work and never go to school is a start. (You know that won’t ever happen thou….).

If this society continues the way it is I think vigilante type incidents will start to appear-it’s inevitable.

I could wear a burka and no camera will see me commit the crime, and if  I use a motorbike to aid my get away – the police will be afraid to chase me ,can you imagine the headline if I crashed?

A few of my friends have emigrated and I wish I could follow TBH .

 

 

 

 

[henry d]

20 hours ago, jonny705 said:

Does anyone not think that maybe one of the reasons, of this increasingly screwed up society, is the fact of the benefits culture, and ease of which it is acquired?

 

I know a woman with 9 kids, some are disabled so she gets shed loads of help –she drives a shogun and the council has knocked an intermediate wall down and linked two houses into one for her and her brood to reside in –its massive –I am a Qualified sparky yet could never affords a car/ house like she has, she has never worked in her life just lies on her back like it’s a career.

Yeah it is a screwed up society when people get all upset because someone needs help for their disabled children.