Red squirrels Scotland

[The gouse]

4 hours ago, Mice! said:

Rant away, i don't get how Scotland pay people to trap, from grant money so support grey control but in England its all done in secret by volunteers and independent charities, there was a very recent case of pox in Formby, you wouldn't believe the stuff being written on line, it was a fairly even split between for and against grey control, given that there is a small population of reds surviving at Formby there should be a complete no go zone for greys so the reds can spread out, but it seems a lot of Joe public don't have the slightest idea what needs doing fir reds to survive.

I know one thing I will have no chance in attracting reds on my shoot as its inundated with grays. As my squirrel man as gone on strike? I think.

[Uilleachan]

Despite being relentlessly hammered in these parts for years Pine Martens held out as there were many places they weren't persecuted, it's thought that blanket reforestation, by the commission etc. cut them the slack they needed for the population to counter being trapped off estates.  

It's from strongholds such as here that they're reintroducing themselves further and further a afield. It's just a matter of time before they start turning up in places they've been absent from for a century or two. 

AFAIK the only reintroductions have been into Wales where the animal was on the verge of extinction and those remaining were thought to be lacking genetic diversity.  

As to the effects on other wildlife from the marten, this place is stuffed full of wildlife despite having every varmint currently present in the UK. Martens are part of the native fauna.  

Red squirrels by contrast died out here due to habitat loss, the reforestation that benefitted the marten didn't workout for the Red as, unlike the marten, they need tree cover and didn't survive the deforestation period. The red squirrel died out in my immediate vicinity in the 40's, apparently, when the last cally pine wood was cut for the war effort. 

There have been a few reintroduction of reds locally which seem to be going well. 

The main reason for the red introductions around here is that we're isolated from the greys by the environment, they simply can't get here. The only way a grey'll get here is if someone brings them. So we're being used as a last line of defence, just incase the effort fails elsewhere.  

[Walker570]

...quote ... " part of native fauna"...... so are bagers but they have devastated hedgehogs and bumble bees .....but can these so called conservationists see or accept this?

Don't hold your breath.   Wolves released in Slovenia are devastating the deer and will be into domestic animals next, same here I'm afraid.

[islandgun]

52 minutes ago, Uilleachan said:

Despite being relentlessly hammered in these parts for years Pine Martens held out as there were many places they weren't persecuted, it's thought that blanket reforestation, by the commission etc. cut them the slack they needed for the population to counter being trapped off estates.  

It's from strongholds such as here that they're reintroducing themselves further and further a afield. It's just a matter of time before they start turning up in places they've been absent from for a century or two. 

AFAIK the only reintroductions have been into Wales where the animal was on the verge of extinction and those remaining were thought to be lacking genetic diversity.  

As to the effects on other wildlife from the marten, this place is stuffed full of wildlife despite having every varmint currently present in the UK. Martens are part of the native fauna.  

Red squirrels by contrast died out here due to habitat loss, the reforestation that benefitted the marten didn't workout for the Red as, unlike the marten, they need tree cover and didn't survive the deforestation period. The red squirrel died out in my immediate vicinity in the 40's, apparently, when the last cally pine wood was cut for the war effort. 

There have been a few reintroduction of reds locally which seem to be going well. 

The main reason for the red introductions around here is that we're isolated from the greys by the environment, they simply can't get here. The only way a grey'll get here is if someone brings them. So we're being used as a last line of defence, just incase the effort fails elsewhere.  

That was my point when suggesting the introduction of reds into the woodland at Stornoway, no disease and no predators

[ClemFandango]

5 hours ago, scotslad said:

 

Cheer clem.

Must admit i'll have to dig out a copy of those studies to read them.

Was there not also a study they tried to claim that even in areas with no greys red densities increased when PM were present??

I know i have been at meetings and that was wot they were trying to make out. It does scare me as more and more seem to think a great idea and fail to see the massive flaw in the logic of releasing a fantastic predator.  Can see it going along the lines of the cane toad in oz

I got a load of bumf with those studies filled away somewhere.

 

If thats the case in ireland it only prves eds thrive when less greys about which is not rocket sience, just in this case the PM killed the greys.

How many years was the study conducted over??

They have shown reds are really quite resilient and can recover  fairly quickly in areas, been show after the pox as long as u stop the greys becoming established

 

Sorry I have to admit i'm very sceptical of a lot of UK based science, some of it can be very poor esp when ur on about predation and killing things,  i often think there is alomst an instutionalised bais with a lot of studies over the last 30+ years

Some of the similar european studies often show a truer picture (atleast many i read back at uni about black game, caper, ground nesting birds) and effects of predation

How many times are we told by experts that 'x and y' species only eats carrion/worms etc to see them devastating local hadgerows and stressing out release pens

 

More on general wildlife conservation but somehow in UK we seem to have completely lost the plot more often than not, no matter wot species ur into protecting (bugs beasties, fish, birds or raptors) most would happily see a non 'target' species wiped out it it meant saving there favourite 'target' species thrived, very few folk look at the bigger picture on the wider ecosystem  (and shooters can be just as guilty in some cases releasing large densities of non natives sometimes to the detriment of local area)

As has been proven with the hoo ha about rspb killing predators to protect nesting members, some rspb members have said should let predators be if they wipe out a load of waders so be it, just natures way??

 

Again off topic but on about conservation in general, this is quite a big step for conservationists to come out and admit a predators can have a massive impact on prey numbers when for the lst 30 years have tried very hard to argue the oppisate. The booming badger/corvid/raptor populations has seen a free fall in many animal/bird populations is just a coincedence.

I can't recall how long the study was conducted over, I saw the researcher giving a talk about her findings maybe two years ago, I have to say she sounded very credible and seemed unbiased coming at it from a purely science based point of view. Her name was Emma Sheehy I think. 

I totally agree with your points about conservation in general in the UK and being single species focussed, often apex predators. Although there is good work going on, you just don't hear about it because it's not grabbing headlines. 

On that note, from a purely conservation based argument, Red squirrels aren't rare in the rest of europe, and they do all of the negative things that grey squirrels do, tree damage, nest predation etc. Why save them? Just because they are native? What is truly native? Hares? Fallow deer? There was a bit in the media recently about rabbits being scarce, they are an introduced species. Pheasants? Red legged Partridges? 

[grrclark]

7 hours ago, islandgun said:

Scotslad The reason given by SNH and Defra for not allowing a bounty for Mink tails were mostly welfare,  people not following the code of practice for trapping, regularly checking traps and issues concerning dispatch [some freelance trappers were drowning mink] 

The Mink project here was carried out in a very systematic and controlled way. which perhaps would not be the case if random bounty hunters were allowed free rein. having said that Grey squirrels are different  and different measures should be in place.

Just seen your last post about NZ. I remember reading recently where the kiwis trapped the spp they wanted to retain and then blanket poisoned the rest

I have seen and read a few things on NZ conservation practices and I think they have it the right way round on many things.

Specifically manage that which is the easier, either the desired or undesired, and take a blanket approach to the rest.

If it’s easier to trap the desired then obliterate the rest why not?

As for the red squirrel in Fife I live right on the edge of a red zone, within a mile or so either way you either see plenty greys or much less frequently the red.

Thankfully over the last couple of years i have seen more reds and slightly less greys.

[islandgun]

13 minutes ago, grrclark said:

I have seen and read a few things on NZ conservation practices and I think they have it the right way round on many things.

Specifically manage that which is the easier, either the desired or undesired, and take a blanket approach to the rest.

If it’s easier to trap the desired then obliterate the rest why not?

As for the red squirrel in Fife I live right on the edge of a red zone, within a mile or so either way you either see plenty greys or much less frequently the red.

Thankfully over the last couple of years i have seen more reds and slightly less greys.

hi grr... Yes all of NZ's problems seemed to have started with the introduction of European's ..?  sadly the animals they brought in, intentionally or otherwise have had serious implications for the indigenous flora and fauna, I wonder if there isn't a case for Europe to pay some of the cost of eradication !!

[Mice!]

20 hours ago, The gouse said:

I know one thing I will have no chance in attracting reds on my shoot as its inundated with grays. As my squirrel man as gone on strike? I think.

Not on strike mate just busy, shifts have been changed so Saturday is our only full day off now for family stuff, it won't be for long once summer holidays are over and i sort a new job.

[old man]

20 hours ago, Walker570 said:

...quote ... " part of native fauna"...... so are bagers but they have devastated hedgehogs and bumble bees .....but can these so called conservationists see or accept this?

Don't hold your breath.   Wolves released in Slovenia are devastating the deer and will be into domestic animals next, same here I'm afraid.

That will make having a bit of a lurk in the woods on dark a tasty experience?

[The gouse]

1 hour ago, Mice! said:

Not on strike mate just busy, shifts have been changed so Saturday is our only full day off now for family stuff, it won't be for long once summer holidays are over and i sort a new job.

I was just joking mate.