.22 WMR or .17 HMR??

[Dekers]

30g Hornady V-Max does pretty much everything I need from my WMR these days!

[Vince Green]

On ‎13‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 22:34, strimmer_13 said:

+1 .22wmr. Excellent all round calibre. This debate has come up a lot, and both have their merits. But if you wanna drop a fox tidily at sensible ranges it's the best round for the job of the 2 imo.

Is this your first foray into rifle shooting? I only ask as the ranges either offer will take practice, but I've accounted for plenty of foxes with mini mags in my .22 once Ive done my bit and got them in close. 

There is nothing wrong with the old .22RF, it always used to be the definitive fox calibre but these days people are shooting them with .243s  Have foxes got harder to kill?

I don't like HMRs, a few years back in Arizona, I saw coyotes shot full on with HMRs run off into the desert wounded, the locals attitude was "it will still die, so no problem " that's not my way. The issue was explosive expansion and a surface wound against penetration and a kill.

Edited August 15, 2018 by Vince Green

[wildfowler.250]

Have to say I love the HMR. Nice accurate little gun. Lethal for rabbits and I don’t really need to consider hold over. Don’t know anything about the .22 mag but I know I have a lot more ‘fun’ shooting the .17 over the .22lr,(but for double the cost).

[Rossco89]

17 hours ago, Vince Green said:

There is nothing wrong with the old .22RF, it always used to be the definitive fox calibre but these days people are shooting them with .243s  Have foxes got harder to kill?

I don't like HMRs, a few years back in Arizona, I saw coyotes shot full on with HMRs run off into the desert wounded, the locals attitude was "it will still die, so no problem " that's not my way. The issue was expansion and a surface wound against penetration and a kill.

Plenty old hand talk about foxing with .22 years ago. That’s said there has been a shift in attitude towards it I feel, it’s put across that it’s not a powerful enough round to ensure a clean kill. Perhaps people have lost a bit of the skills needed to call a fox in close enough and prefer to shoot it when it’s at the other end of the field.

or possibly foxes have got wiser?

[Dekers]

15 minutes ago, Rossco89 said:

Plenty old hand talk about foxing with .22 years ago. That’s said there has been a shift in attitude towards it I feel, it’s put across that it’s not a powerful enough round to ensure a clean kill. Perhaps people have lost a bit of the skills needed to call a fox in close enough and prefer to shoot it when it’s at the other end of the field.

or possibly foxes have got wiser?

Nothing has detrimentally changed about .22lr ammo, it is as capable, if not more so now, than it was years ago.  All my .22lr were conditioned for Fox (AOLQ now), and even today the Home Office Guide suggests it is capable of fox.

Any an every caliber has its limitations, I struggle to understand why the .22lr lists, in simple terms as, close fox, why doesn't the .243 list as Deer...…...but not too far away?!

Anyway, I deal with a lot of close fox and I have NEVER had a problem using the .22lr correctly!

Tools for the job, and legislating for idiots is a sad situation!

 

[Rossco89]

1 hour ago, Dekers said:

Nothing has detrimentally changed about .22lr ammo, it is as capable, if not more so now, than it was years ago.  All my .22lr were conditioned for Fox (AOLQ now), and even today the Home Office Guide suggests it is capable of fox.

Any an every caliber has its limitations, I struggle to understand why the .22lr lists, in simple terms as, close fox, why doesn't the .243 list as Deer...…...but not too far away?!

Anyway, I deal with a lot of close fox and I have NEVER had a problem using the .22lr correctly!

Tools for the job, and legislating for idiots is a sad situation!

 

What range are you shooting foxes with the .22lr?

I don’t doubt what your saying, I’m just going by the guides from the firearms dept and what seems to be a generally accepted opinion. I have the home office guide somewhere so must have a look at it again. 

Would you choose the .22lr over the WMR then?

[Scully]

I would suggest that prior to the fairly modern 'sport' of lamping for foxes, with all the gear that that now entails, the .22lr will have accounted for most foxes. It's fairly straight forward to squeak in cubs and we've shot many in such a manner with the .22lr. 

[Guest stevo]

My .22 LR is conditioned for close range Fox ( 50 yards max ) 

Eley subs will easily drop a Fox , and have done many times over the years , and still do if the situation calls for it . 

i have also spent a lot of years calling them into shotgun range , 

you have to remember 30- 40 yrs ago a Center fire rifle was a luxury bit of kit to pretty much out of financial reach to most keepers and pest controllers, unless the Estate supplied one . 

Shotguns and Rimfire rifles covered everything. 

[CharlieT]

10 minutes ago, stevo said:

My .22 LR is conditioned for close range Fox ( 50 yards max ) 

Eley subs will easily drop a Fox , and have done many times over the years , and still do if the situation calls for it . 

i have also spent a lot of years calling them into shotgun range , 

you have to remember 30- 40 yrs ago a Center fire rifle was a luxury bit of kit to pretty much out of financial reach to most keepers and pest controllers, unless the Estate supplied one . 

Shotguns and Rimfire rifles covered everything. 

Years ago when all we had was a shotgun or rimfire we used to lamp foxes with a car battery stuffed in a postman's bag over our shoulder and an old car headlight. 

I remember when father bought me a hornet as my first "proper" rifle, couldn't believe how powerful it was,  I was able to drop deer like a stone at what I thought were magical distances.

 

I remember, a few years later, after the deer act came in,  buying a second hand .243 which was screw cut, something i'd never seen before. After learning what the thread was for I applied for a moderator for it, took me many years and I mean many, to convince them to grant it.

[Guest stevo]

20 minutes ago, CharlieT said:

Years ago when all we had was a shotgun or rimfire we used to lamp foxes with a car battery stuffed in a postman's bag over our shoulder and an old car headlight. 

I remember when father bought me a hornet as my first "proper" rifle, couldn't believe how powerful it was,  I was able to drop deer like a stone at what I thought were magical distances.

 

I remember, a few years later, after the deer act came in,  buying a second hand .243 which was screw cut, something i'd never seen before. After learning what the thread was for I applied for a moderator for it, took me many years and I mean many, to convince them to grant it.

You old *** haha ?fair play to you sir 

[Scully]

41 minutes ago, CharlieT said:

Years ago when all we had was a shotgun or rimfire we used to lamp foxes with a car battery stuffed in a postman's bag over our shoulder and an old car headlight. 

I remember when father bought me a hornet as my first "proper" rifle, couldn't believe how powerful it was,  I was able to drop deer like a stone at what I thought were magical distances.

 

I remember, a few years later, after the deer act came in,  buying a second hand .243 which was screw cut, something i'd never seen before. After learning what the thread was for I applied for a moderator for it, took me many years and I mean many, to convince them to grant it.

Strange how attitudes change. I think moderators, or silencers, as they were mistakenly regarded back then, were treated with suspicion. I recall someone from licensing asking me why I didn’t want one, and telling me it would protect my hearing more, when I didn’t include one when applying for my first .243. 

[Guest stevo]

8 minutes ago, Scully said:

Strange how attitudes change. I think moderators, or silencers, as they were mistakenly regarded back then, were treated with suspicion. I recall someone from licensing asking me why I didn’t want one, and telling me it would protect my hearing more, when I didn’t include one when applying for my first .243. 

I can remember back to 2001 I was still having to fight for a sound mod on my .220 swift , in the end it took me to invite the FEO out one afternoon on one of my permissions , 2 secs after I pulled the trigger the paperwork was sorted , ?

Just to add , I never had a problem since ?

Edited August 15, 2018 by stevo

[strimmer_13]

2 hours ago, Rossco89 said:

What range are you shooting foxes with the .22lr?

CCI mini mags never had 1 get back up at 70 yards. Never used subs on a fox tho but as stevo says 50yards shouldn't be a issue as long as you don't fluff it.

Would you choose the .22lr over the WMR then?

Depends on your budget. .22 rf are cheap as chips, my Brno mod2 was £100 and ammo £6-8 for £50 (mini mags). My marlin wmr was I think £300 secondhand and rounds I think were a tenner for 50. Silencer extra £50 (needed on wmr never bothered with rf). I'm sure you could find stuff cheaper by searching and get a cz/Brno. Can't go wrong with cz it's more accurate than you'd think. 

 

[Rossco89]

11 minutes ago, strimmer_13 said:

 

Thanks for that, food for thought! Potentially would do the job for my uses 

[Dekers]

3 hours ago, Rossco89 said:

What range are you shooting foxes with the .22lr?

I don’t doubt what your saying, I’m just going by the guides from the firearms dept and what seems to be a generally accepted opinion. I have the home office guide somewhere so must have a look at it again. 

Would you choose the .22lr over the WMR then?

I can't actually remember any further than 100 yards with the .22lr, and that was a situation where everything came together.    I shoot a lot in peoples back gardens, range and noise make the .22lr and subs a common choice, but the HMR also gets used for this, very rarely the WMR.   

I use my WMR primarily for field/farm/stable/golf course/etc., Fox and Canada goose!

Use any gun/caliber/ammo within its, and your, capabilities.  Apparently Stevo above says his is conditioned for 50 yards max on fox, I fail to see why any number should be attached to your FAC, if they must tell you this, why not list your 243 for XXX distance on deer?

[39TDS]

I had a 9422M Winchester and there is no way I could use that without hearing protection.

I now have a CZ452 in WMR instead and quite happily use that without hearing protection. Same round but either quieter or the extra length makes the noisy bit further away.

My ears give me loads of grief if exposed to too much noise so I wouldn't use the gun without protection if it was too loud.

[Longbower]

Somewhere on the Fieldsports channel , a 'foxing' expert goes through the calibers used for shooting foxes.

He states  that "the modern view of the .22LR round is not suitable  /powerful enough to shoot foxes, but the adds " ask anyone who tells you this if they would be happy to stand 75 yds away and let you shoot them between the eyes" , they will naturally say NO ,why? Because they would be stone dead ".

So shooting a small dog at 50 yds shouldn't be a problem.  

I have a 17 HMR ,CZ452 Tactical , with Sak moderator , and it shoots beautifully!  Well with Hornady Ammunition . The Winchester round Is not reliable .  I may shoot a couple of dozen without a problem , but then get four or five that wont fire in the next batch of twenty. 

It emulsifies bunnys at close ranges, it suffers from wind drift at long range being only 17grain ,  so i think i may see if I can get hold of the heavier non ballistic tip round.

Or, I think I heard of a full metal jacket round. 

I probably should have applied for a 22WMR , but was advised by my FEO , to go for the HMR if I was shooting foxes !

[Scully]

After all I’ve said I really like the HMR. I don’t own one, but my mate does and he loves it. It gets way more use than his .22lr because he likes obliterating maggies and crows from extreme ranges from his bedroom window! 

He will be in his element when we finish the hide and he starts baiting with rabbits.

[Rossco89]

7 hours ago, Longbower said:

Somewhere on the Fieldsports channel , a 'foxing' expert goes through the calibers used for shooting foxes.

He states  that "the modern view of the .22LR round is not suitable  /powerful enough to shoot foxes, but the adds " ask anyone who tells you this if they would be happy to stand 75 yds away and let you shoot them between the eyes" , they will naturally say NO ,why? Because they would be stone dead ".

So shooting a small dog at 50 yds shouldn't be a problem.  

I have a 17 HMR ,CZ452 Tactical , with Sak moderator , and it shoots beautifully!  Well with Hornady Ammunition . The Winchester round Is not reliable .  I may shoot a couple of dozen without a problem , but then get four or five that wont fire in the next batch of twenty. 

It emulsifies bunnys at close ranges, it suffers from wind drift at long range being only 17grain ,  so i think i may see if I can get hold of the heavier non ballistic tip round.

Or, I think I heard of a full metal jacket round. 

I probably should have applied for a 22WMR , but was advised by my FEO , to go for the HMR if I was shooting foxes !

I’ll have a look for that video

Edit: 

Just watched it, he makes a valid point on the the .22lr, maybe see what the local polices view on it is, I would assume if any other lawful quarry was on permit, it’s not an issue. Interestingly he limits the range on the .17 50 feet short of what people frequently talk about. Personal preference I guess!

Edited August 16, 2018 by Rossco89

[wymberley]

Nothing new under the sun.

Reading the posts from Charlie T, Scully and Stevo reminds us that we're the new kids on the block. After all, the pigeon shooting "bible" was written just 55 years ago and any of the better fox shooting guides were published this century.

It's remarkable that from the two calibres debated here, the consensus appears to be that for fox the older one is preferred. Consequently, it's no surprise that the Hornet gets a mention.

[Dekers]

20 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Nothing new under the sun.

Reading the posts from Charlie T, Scully and Stevo reminds us that we're the new kids on the block. After all, the pigeon shooting "bible" was written just 55 years ago and any of the better fox shooting guides were published this century.

It's remarkable that from the two calibres debated here, the consensus appears to be that for fox the older one is preferred. Consequently, it's no surprise that the Hornet gets a mention.

I would totally agree with that for FOX, but the OP said ………………………….  thinking about a .22wmr as quarry will mainly be rabbits, corvids and close range fox.

No contest on that for me, HMR every time!

[Pigeon Shredder.]

10 hours ago, Longbower said:

Somewhere on the Fieldsports channel , a 'foxing' expert goes through the calibers used for shooting foxes.

He states  that "the modern view of the .22LR round is not suitable  /powerful enough to shoot foxes, but the adds " ask anyone who tells you this if they would be happy to stand 75 yds away and let you shoot them between the eyes" , they will naturally say NO ,why? Because they would be stone dead ".

So shooting a small dog at 50 yds shouldn't be a problem.  

I have a 17 HMR ,CZ452 Tactical , with Sak moderator , and it shoots beautifully!  Well with Hornady Ammunition . The Winchester round Is not reliable .  I may shoot a couple of dozen without a problem , but then get four or five that wont fire in the next batch of twenty. 

It emulsifies bunnys at close ranges, it suffers from wind drift at long range being only 17grain ,  so i think i may see if I can get hold of the heavier non ballistic tip round.

Or, I think I heard of a full metal jacket round. 

I probably should have applied for a 22WMR , but was advised by my FEO , to go for the HMR if I was shooting foxes !

Winchester Super X is an FMJ 20gr, and very effective it is.

[Whitebridges]

5 hours ago, Dekers said:

I would totally agree with that for FOX, but the OP said ………………………….  thinking about a .22wmr as quarry will mainly be rabbits, corvids and close range fox.

No contest on that for me, HMR every time!

Correct. The answer to the question is the .17 HMR using Hornady Ammo. 

[Whitebridges]

3 hours ago, Pigeon Shredder. said:

Winchester Super X is an FMJ 20gr, and very effective it is.

CCI Gamepoint is a hollowpoint 20g bullet. Very accurate and drops foxes shot in the bib / heart area. If you have to shoot foxes < 100 yards this would be the bullet i'd prefer.

I've tried these of rabbits but a ballistic tip is superior.       

[B525 LIGHT]

I’ve had both and have used a WMR exclusively in the past. Of the two I’d go with the WMR. Hornadys and RWS would be my first choices to try in ammo. Its a shame to .17wsm hasnt been the sucess it could have been as in a better rifle it would suit most amature/ recreational use for most people.