Mountain hare population

[JohnfromUK]

There has been a major news story (i.e. repeated hourly) today on the BBC relating to a report claiming that mountain hare populations in eastern Scotland are at only 1% of the 1950s level.  The claim was then made that since in the 1990s a link was made that identified the mountain hare as a host for ticks/parasites that were detrimental to the grouse populations and that estates had been holding hare culls - leading to the decline having accelerated since the 1990s.

I have walked for grouse in Scotland every year for the last 30+ years with only one 'missed year' (though this year will be another) and can't really claim any evidence from personal hare sightings because my visits have been to several different estates/areas of hill.  However, overall, had i been asked, we have seen hares every year - and more some years, less in others, presumably due to natural variations (just like the grouse!).  We don't ever shoot hares (rule is - you shoot it, you carry it!).  Certainly - had this not been raised, I would not have thought that there had been much change in the number of hares we see overall on average over a few years.

[Piebob]

There are localised pockets where hares aren't fairing too well - land bought up by "conservation" bodies and rewilded.  So, less new heather, more trees, no controlled burning, long rank heather, more scrub and poor/no predator control.  Hares are doing very well on moors managed for grouse shooting on the other hand.  

We need an agreed, standard way of counting hare numbers rather than that done in the report you describe above, which is essentially an 80-odd year old man, wandering the hills on random days of the year.  The report then gets seized upon by the likes of the RSPB to start manipulating the findings against sporting estates, and the likes of the BBC lap that up as gospel.  An agreed standard counting process would expose the truth and identify exactly where hare numbers are in abundance or otherwise.

[butchdickason]

I watched the very biased view, as usual shooting is blamed for decline in any species.  The number of hares counted on any one day in an area is not a true reflection on the actual numbers on the ground, but if gamekeepers were asked the question you would get a more accurate account.  The picture was taken about 35 years ago, my mate shot the hare on the first part of our walk up day and had to carry it all morning.

Butch

[hambone]

Not really applicable to the topic (lowland) but it saddens me the number of landowners I meet who want me to shoot all hares because they think that if they don't have hares on their ground there is less reason for the travellers or other undesirables to be nosing about the ground

[scotslad]

I would also imagine many of the 'conservation' bodies will also be very hard on hares to stop them damaging the regen too.

 

Some moors can be hard on them but i've aso been on well run moors with heaps of them.

Hare shooting/driving has been happening long before grouse shooting ever became fashionable/vaible in scotland and often happens away from grouse moors too.

 

 

To be fair piebob i haven't read the report so don't know the methodology used, but some scientific studies pretty much are u just wandering about and recording wot u see.

Ideally u should be wandering from the same points A to B or path/route every time and doing it at similar times of year/day and evven similar weather if possible and recording wot u see and repeating if needed, basically a line transect.

While it won''t really give u an accurate population it could give u a decent indicatin/indice of wot the population is and trends year on year

Which is pretty much wot keepers do twice a year to count the gouse anyway to set the ammount of days/bags to be shot, except with dogs (really should be using the same types of dog for historic counts  to be relevant(ie not mixing spaniels  hprs/pointers))

 

I would take the figures with a very large pinch of salt, but blue hares are essentially the rabiits of the high hill, in many parts the high hills are quite sensitive/vulnerable vegetation so any ammout of hares can cause overgrazig esp alongside the deer and sheep.

I wonder hpow the UK rabbit population is lookinig % wise since 70's or even 90's???

I bet it could have seen a reduction like that (i know locally/regionally it has) but no one tries to stop u shooting rabbits (as no grouse moors/toffs involved)

[yates]

I haven’t read the report in full and have no doubt that if will be biased again the hunting fraternity but I don’t see why anyone has the need to shoot hares at all. Not many of us now need to kill to survive and don’t see the point of killing creatures for fun

[islandgun]

I remember commenting in PW on the piece on countryfile a few months ago, the presenter was nearly in tears, beautiful white animals being shot to preserve grouse...the repercussions of the reporting could easily result in a ban on hare shooting 

[scotslad]

12 hours ago, yates said:

I haven’t read the report in full and have no doubt that if will be biased again the hunting fraternity but I don’t see why anyone has the need to shoot hares at all. Not many of us now need to kill to survive and don’t see the point of killing creatures for fun

Shooting blue hares is no different to someone shooting rabbits on the low ground and a vital tool for upland management.

In areas where high numbers they'll over graze and damage the vegetation then after a winter like this and slow spring be massive numbers of hares would have died of starvation (along with deer)

How would u rather die be shot or starvation??

 

I definately hope not IG as yet again another decision based on emotion or how cuddly an animal looks and not on science or good land management.

[islandgun]

40 minutes ago, scotslad said:

Shooting blue hares is no different to someone shooting rabbits on the low ground and a vital tool for upland management.

In areas where high numbers they'll over graze and damage the vegetation then after a winter like this and slow spring be massive numbers of hares would have died of starvation (along with deer)

How would u rather die be shot or starvation??

 

I definately hope not IG as yet again another decision based on emotion or how cuddly an animal looks and not on science or good land management.

Arnt they all,  Its bewildering what people actually base their decisions on,  Im a regular on a fishing forum and one old boy hated the thought of  rabbit meat because it was cruel, yet was happy to tuck into factory farmed hen, On a serious note, where are the scientific/land use  arguments to counter the sensationalism of the ill informed.  I have had a very limited experience of TV  [landward] when i worked for DEFRA/ SNH and remember they were very keen to give airtime to a bit of news, .. No one seems to speak out !!  

[yates]

12 hours ago, scotslad said:

Shooting blue hares is no different to someone shooting rabbits on the low ground and a vital tool for upland management.

In areas where high numbers they'll over graze and damage the vegetation then after a winter like this and slow spring be massive numbers of hares would have died of starvation (along with deer)

How would u rather die be shot or starvation??

 

I definately hope not IG as yet again another decision based on emotion or how cuddly an animal looks and not on science or good land management.

If there is genuinely an over population of hares then I agree numbers need to controlled. I agree with you totally that the most humane way is to shoot them and put them into the food chain. 

[scotslad]

Alright IG

 

Off the top of my head i can't place any, been a few done, ur GWCT will be the best place to look (it was them who discovered the link between hares and ticks= louping ill (which is a sheep disease that grouse can catch))

Think Maclauy Land use institure will have done a bit too, otherwise either the Heather trust or Moorland Assoc should have something with links i'd imagine, also the Angus Glens moorland group? has quite a good site with loads of clips from there grouse moors filmed by keepers.

Some very good well run moors up angus way, and plenty of hares on them too,

my 1st ever day at grouse my old spaniel pegged 3 on the 1st drive, plus a cheaper grouse (the ******) then by 3rd drive thought i was going to lose him with dehydration/heat stroke he worked that hard with no water/burns anywhere near where we beat throu first 3 drives.

 

SNH themselves are always on about scotlands hills being over grazed, they're usually using it as an excuse for the way they treat(massacre) Red deer but any herbivore will cause over grazing not just deer and sheep.

Talk about hypocrites, SNH, NTS (mar lodge esp), RSPB and JMT are some of the biggest slaughters of red deer in scotland. JMT shot 86 red stags and left them on the hill to rot a few years ago. Just to prove a point, none of the local estate could shoot any stags with paying guests as JMT (who only own a tiny parcel of ground) had shot all the stags for that cull and next few years culls too.

If ever any group should be held to account for there treatment and slaughtering of wild anilmals it should be the 3 above, yet the tabloids don't want to know. The aberdeenshire P and J had plenty of photos of rotten deer yet no big paper followed up. It was keepers/stalkers (and SgA) who pushed the outcry

 

They reckon 1 rabbit= about 7 sheep, a blue hare is about rabbit size so u could estimate would eat similar (possibly more due to climate/exposure/heat loss)

But when ur talking about the areas where blue hares live ur talking about some pretty high poor ground, sheep densities could be only 1 sheep per acre. It doesn't take many hares with such low sheep densities for them to make a massive impact on vegetation.

Then throw in the growing season, might only be a few months per year.

 

Yates just like grouse or anything else truely wild u can't shoot big numbers if there not present in big numbers.

Yes estates will shoot big bags on days, but because of the ground really the only way to control them is driving them to guns so takes lots of folk to do it. Might only shoot a hillside once every year or 2 if its needed.

Hares thrive on grouse moors due to the burning and plentiful supply of young nutrious heather shoots and little vermin.

 

If hare numbers have decreased if will be on un managed moors/hills that are either completely over grazed so no feed or miles and miles of rank old heather with no nutritional value plus loads of vermin. So no/little feed and loads of vermin is never going t produce/sustain large numbers of hares

So it wouldn't surprise me if hares are rarer over much of scotland,just like many other species waders, black game etc, but can be shot on moors as just so many on well run hills

Edited August 16, 2018 by scotslad

[islandgun]

12 hours ago, scotslad said:

Alright IG

 

Off the top of my head i can't place any, been a few done, ur GWCT will be the best place to look (it was them who discovered the link between hares and ticks= louping ill (which is a sheep disease that grouse can catch))

Think Maclauy Land use institure will have done a bit too, otherwise either the Heather trust or Moorland Assoc should have something with links i'd imagine, also the Angus Glens moorland group? has quite a good site with loads of clips from there grouse moors filmed by keepers.

Some very good well run moors up angus way, and plenty of hares on them too,

my 1st ever day at grouse my old spaniel pegged 3 on the 1st drive, plus a cheaper grouse (the ******) then by 3rd drive thought i was going to lose him with dehydration/heat stroke he worked that hard with no water/burns anywhere near where we beat throu first 3 drives.

 

SNH themselves are always on about scotlands hills being over grazed, they're usually using it as an excuse for the way they treat(massacre) Red deer but any herbivore will cause over grazing not just deer and sheep.

Talk about hypocrites, SNH, NTS (mar lodge esp), RSPB and JMT are some of the biggest slaughters of red deer in scotland. JMT shot 86 red stags and left them on the hill to rot a few years ago. Just to prove a point, none of the local estate could shoot any stags with paying guests as JMT (who only own a tiny parcel of ground) had shot all the stags for that cull and next few years culls too.

If ever any group should be held to account for there treatment and slaughtering of wild anilmals it should be the 3 above, yet the tabloids don't want to know. The aberdeenshire P and J had plenty of photos of rotten deer yet no big paper followed up. It was keepers/stalkers (and SgA) who pushed the outcry

 

They reckon 1 rabbit= about 7 sheep, a blue hare is about rabbit size so u could estimate would eat similar (possibly more due to climate/exposure/heat loss)

But when ur talking about the areas where blue hares live ur talking about some pretty high poor ground, sheep densities could be only 1 sheep per acre. It doesn't take many hares with such low sheep densities for them to make a massive impact on vegetation.

Then throw in the growing season, might only be a few months per year.

 

Yates just like grouse or anything else truely wild u can't shoot big numbers if there not present in big numbers.

Yes estates will shoot big bags on days, but because of the ground really the only way to control them is driving them to guns so takes lots of folk to do it. Might only shoot a hillside once every year or 2 if its needed.

Hares thrive on grouse moors due to the burning and plentiful supply of young nutrious heather shoots and little vermin.

 

If hare numbers have decreased if will be on un managed moors/hills that are either completely over grazed so no feed or miles and miles of rank old heather with no nutritional value plus loads of vermin. So no/little feed and loads of vermin is never going t produce/sustain large numbers of hares

So it wouldn't surprise me if hares are rarer over much of scotland,just like many other species waders, black game etc, but can be shot on moors as just so many on well run hills

Cheers. i will have a look at the various orgs you mention, Its clear that a well managed moor will support a healthy population of all spp !!.  I just dont get why more people arnt speaking out publicly about the benefits,  My Spaniel was in a similar situation the other day, Theres been mixy on a large dune/machair area i have perm for, so i took him for a look, he became tired and hot very quick even vomited, had him walk to heel on the way back to the van, [thought i was going to have to carry him] he enjoyed a swim on the way home though, wasn.t even that hot, 

By the way you must have very big rabbits down your way, or small sheep....

[Penelope]

IG - ?  By the way you must have very big rabbits down your way, or small sheep....

[Mice!]

Not sure how i missed this?

the misses said there was something on ITV news today about saddleworth moor and showing another moor that suffered a similar fire twenty years ago, apparently there was a keeper talking about the different areas of heather and explained how they look after the ground, benefits of management etc.

Anyone see it?

[islandgun]

3 hours ago, Mice! said:

Not sure how i missed this?

the misses said there was something on ITV news today about saddleworth moor and showing another moor that suffered a similar fire twenty years ago, apparently there was a keeper talking about the different areas of heather and explained how they look after the ground, benefits of management etc.

Anyone see it?

I didnt see it but there was a long piece about the fires on radio 4 yesterday,  [their words] 7000 acres destroyed and according to one keeper  wouldnt recover for 20 years... We muir burn here in favourable winds to encourage regrowth and better grazing for sheep, Ive noticed on some moors they have used a topper  to cut off the old woody heather, both methods done in a controlled way would probably have saved large areas of moor and encourage a more diverse flora and fauna

Edited August 29, 2018 by islandgun

[Uilleachan]

It'll be interesting to see a new report.

The information on number and culled is provided by the land owners, estates and tenants who respond. The last report was from 2007, and is available online. That report makes comparison with an earlier report from the 90's.

One of the findings from 2007 was a marked shift in reasons stated for shooting hares, from mainly sporting in the 90's to pest control in the naughties over the same  ground previously surveyed.

There's plenty hares but they are becoming rare on certain ground and thats down to individual management attitudes thereon. 

[Retsdon]

On 17/08/2018 at 00:12, scotslad said:

Alright IG

 

Off the top of my head i can't place any, been a few done, ur GWCT will be the best place to look (it was them who discovered the link between hares and ticks= louping ill (which is a sheep disease that grouse can catch))

Think Maclauy Land use institure will have done a bit too, otherwise either the Heather trust or Moorland Assoc should have something with links i'd imagine, also the Angus Glens moorland group? has quite a good site with loads of clips from there grouse moors filmed by keepers.

Some very good well run moors up angus way, and plenty of hares on them too,

my 1st ever day at grouse my old spaniel pegged 3 on the 1st drive, plus a cheaper grouse (the ******) then by 3rd drive thought i was going to lose him with dehydration/heat stroke he worked that hard with no water/burns anywhere near where we beat throu first 3 drives.

 

SNH themselves are always on about scotlands hills being over grazed, they're usually using it as an excuse for the way they treat(massacre) Red deer but any herbivore will cause over grazing not just deer and sheep.

Talk about hypocrites, SNH, NTS (mar lodge esp), RSPB and JMT are some of the biggest slaughters of red deer in scotland. JMT shot 86 red stags and left them on the hill to rot a few years ago. Just to prove a point, none of the local estate could shoot any stags with paying guests as JMT (who only own a tiny parcel of ground) had shot all the stags for that cull and next few years culls too.

If ever any group should be held to account for there treatment and slaughtering of wild anilmals it should be the 3 above, yet the tabloids don't want to know. The aberdeenshire P and J had plenty of photos of rotten deer yet no big paper followed up. It was keepers/stalkers (and SgA) who pushed the outcry

 

They reckon 1 rabbit= about 7 sheep, a blue hare is about rabbit size so u could estimate would eat similar (possibly more due to climate/exposure/heat loss)

But when ur talking about the areas where blue hares live ur talking about some pretty high poor ground, sheep densities could be only 1 sheep per acre. It doesn't take many hares with such low sheep densities for them to make a massive impact on vegetation.

Then throw in the growing season, might only be a few months per year.

 

Yates just like grouse or anything else truely wild u can't shoot big numbers if there not present in big numbers.

Yes estates will shoot big bags on days, but because of the ground really the only way to control them is driving them to guns so takes lots of folk to do it. Might only shoot a hillside once every year or 2 if its needed.

Hares thrive on grouse moors due to the burning and plentiful supply of young nutrious heather shoots and little vermin.

 

If hare numbers have decreased if will be on un managed moors/hills that are either completely over grazed so no feed or miles and miles of rank old heather with no nutritional value plus loads of vermin. So no/little feed and loads of vermin is never going t produce/sustain large numbers of hares

So it wouldn't surprise me if hares are rarer over much of scotland,just like many other species waders, black game etc, but can be shot on moors as just so many on well run hills

Lots of interesting info in this post. Thanks.

[scotslad]

I actually bought the ST today as it had an article about Mountain Hare numbers.

Only 2 pages so doesn't go into massive detail.

 

Basiclaly a new report has came out publised by 2 well know well respected scientists? (1 is rspb)

It's conclusion claims that Blue hare numbers are at 1% of the 1950 numbers. Been declining steadily for decades but then plummeted around 1999 due purely to increse shooting on grouse moors. (I'm guessing 99 was around the time they 1st dicovered that BH could be a significant host for ticks/louping Ill, as quite a new finding really).

Seemingly the way they counted, Line transect has recently been deemed unsuitable  by SNH for hare counts,  also areas for count were far to small to be statistacally significant, so all there numbers could be wrong (so when u extrapolate to a country lebvel u could be miles and miles out), they also had absolutley no evidence of the BH cull numbers either before or after 99 so have no evidence that culls increased post 99.

Basically ripped massive holes all throu it

 

ST interviwed a few folk and basically the GWCT has masses of data on them, from 3 different counts/sources and all say pretty much staying relatively stable, like many upland species can be quite boom/bust, i know the gwct has grouse count details and game bag returns on many estates going back decades if not back to 1900's on a few famous moors. On many of the grouse moors they found the BH culls actually went down around 99 so the oppisate of wot the 'study' made out.

Seemingly BH numbers can get up to 200 per Km2

 

I think the study also never even mentioned weather (colder winters/slower/late springs can have on them)

Even the % of managed grouse moor in scotland is really quite small as a whole (may be high in localised areas thou)

1 thing ST did say is that it could be that BH behaviour has changed in the last few decades, 1 of the main threat to BH is BoP, BoP numbers have never been so high since pre victorian times, Buzzards are moving higher and higher up the hills.

Possibly BH have figured out its safer to eat/move about at night rather in daytime when the study counted them.

Quite an intersting idea and i could see the logic behind it esp if all other indicators are saying numbers are stable.

 

Just as a PS i noticed someone on about muirburn earlier, really there is 2 differnt types a keepers and a shepherds.

A keeper swants loads of small burnt areas so loads of mix between heather ages (food shelter nesting cover as close together as possible)

Shepherds (atleast inthe past) just want young heather and as much as possible so tend to be far far bigger burns (almost wild fires in some cases)

 

 

Edited August 29, 2018 by scotslad

[islandgun]

11 minutes ago, scotslad said:

I actually bought the ST today as it had an article about Mountain Hare numbers.

Only 2 pages so doesn't go into massive detail.

 

Basiclaly a new report has came out publised by 2 well know well respected scientists? (1 is rspb)

It's conclusion claims that Blue hare numbers are at 1% of the 1950 numbers. Been declining steadily for decades but then plummeted around 1999 due purely to increse shooting on grouse moors. (I'm guessing 99 was around the time they 1st dicovered that BH could be a significant host for ticks/louping Ill, as quite a new finding really).

Seemingly the way they counted, Line transect has recently been deemed unsuitable  by SNH for hare counts,  also areas for count were far to small to be statistacally significant, so all there numbers could be wrong (so when u extrapolate to a country lebvel u could be miles and miles out), they also had absolutley no evidence of the BH cull numbers either before or after 99 so have no evidence that culls increased post 99.

Basically ripped massive holes all throu it

 

ST interviwed a few folk and basically the GWCT has masses of data on them, from 3 different counts/sources and all say pretty much staying relatively stable, like many upland species can be quite boom/bust, i know the gwct has grouse count details and game bag returns on many estates going back decades if not back to 1900's on a few famous moors. On many of the grouse moors they found the BH culls actually went down around 99 so the oppisate of wot the 'study' made out.

Seemingly BH numbers can get up to 200 per Km2

 

I think the study also never even mentioned weather (colder winters/slower/late springs can have on them)

Even the % of managed grouse moor in scotland is really quite small as a whole (may be high in localised areas thou)

1 thing ST did say is that it could be that BH behaviour has changed in the last few decades, 1 of the main threat to BH is BoP, BoP numbers have never been so high since pre victorian times, Buzzards are moving higher and higher up the hills.

Possibly BH have figured out its safer to eat/move about at night rather in daytime when the study counted them.

Quite an intersting idea and i could see the logic behind it esp if all other indicators are saying numbers are stable.

 

Just as a PS i noticed someone on about muirburn earlier, really there is 2 differnt types a keepers and a shepherds.

A keeper swants loads of small burnt areas so loads of mix between heather ages (food shelter nesting cover)

Shepherds (atleast inthe past) just want young heather and as much as possible so tend to be far far bigger burns (almost wild fires in some cases)

 

 

Cant argue about that scotslad, good points as always. one thing, here in the western isles muir burns usually happen when its not raining, so that restricts the burns to a couple of days and to the small areas between peatbogs..

Edited August 29, 2018 by islandgun