johnnytheboy Posted August 25, 2018 Report Share Posted August 25, 2018 (edited) Cartridge Velocity Test Light Game Cartridges 1448fps RC SIPE Extreme 28g 1430fps Cheddite Free Shots 30g 1398fps NSI OK 30g 1386fps Diana Hunting 30g 1379fps RC S4 30g 1378fps Rio Classic Game 30g 1356fps Gamebore Clear Pigeon 30g 1355fps Fiocchi PL30 1334fps Hull Superfast 29g 1331fps Victory Rocket 29g 1317fps RC Titano Caccia 31g 1300fps Gamebore Velocity 29g 1299fps Gamebore Black Gold 30g 1289fps Hull Special Pigeon 29g 1289fps Lyalvale Power Pigeon 29g 1287fps RC Gameline 30g 1285fps Mirage T2 Game 28g 1284fps Eley Pigeon Select 30g 1266fps Gamebore Velocity 30g 1263fps Lyalvale Special Pigeon 30g 1248fps Proper Ultimate Game 29g 1235fps Lyalvale Supreme 30g 1224fps Mirage Lite Game 30.5g 1222fps Lyalvale Supreme 28g 1219fps RC SIPE 30g 1212fps Rottweil Geco Jagd 30g 1197fps Gamebore Pure Gold 28g 1184fps Hull High Pheasant 30g Medium Game Cartridges 32g 1442fps Diana Superspeed 1433fps Trust Super Star 1409fps Rio Royal 1404fps Fiocchi Golden Pheasant 1393fps Rio Super Game 1364fps Proper 32g 1361fps Victory Starlight 1354fps RC 32 Caccia 1345fps Cheddite CH6 1344fps Fiocchi PL32HV 1336fps RC SIPE 1330fps Gamebore Black Gold 1309fps FOB Super 1306fps Rottweil Tiger 1304fps Mirage Xpert Game 1297fps Proper Hi-Speed 1288fps Gamebore Pure Gold 1287fps Lyalvale Supreme Game 1284fps Eley VIP 1284fps Fiocchi Pigeon 1277fps Hull High Pheasant Extreme 1277fps Baikal Record 1262fps RC Romagnola 1250fps Eley Pigeon HV 1244fps Gamebore Clear Pigeon 1240fps Fiocchi PL32 1237fps Gamebore Super Game 1235fps Mirage High Speed 1229fps Hull Special Pigeon 1225fps Hull High Pheasant 1222fps Winchester Super Speed 1203fps Lyalvale Super Game 33-34g Game Cartridges 1302fps RC Disperante 33g 1301fps Mirage T3 Disperante 34g 1300fps Eley VIP Elite 34g 1291fps Gamebore Pigeon Extreme 34g 1271fps Cheddite Free Shots 33g 1250fps FOB Chasse 34g 1242fps Mirage Standard Game 34g 35-36g Game Cartridges 1387fps Mirage HV 36g 1367fps Proper Stonedead 36g 1364fps Proper Ultimate Game 36g 1355fps RC ORO 35g 1349fps Rottweil Waidmannshiel 36g 1346fps Victory White Rabbit 35g 1345fps RC JK6 T3 35g 1343fps Rottweil Special 36g 1342fps Gamebore Darkstorm 35g 1327fps RC JK6 T5 36g 1321fps RC4 36g 1309fps Cheddite Percorso 36g 1287fps Rottweil Super Game 36g 1286fps Rio Royal Pigeon 36g 1278fps Saga High Speed 36g 1275fps Fiocchi PL36 1258fps Winchester Super Speed 36g 1254fps FOB Super 36g 1235fps Gamebore Buffalo 36g 1221fps Eley Alphamax+ 36g 1216fps Hull High Pheasant Extreme 36g 1167fps Hull Ultramax 36g 38g Game Cartridges 1293fps Fiocchi JK6 38g 1264fps RC Millennium 38g Semi Magnum 2.75" Cartridges 1406fps Mirage Royal Winter 40g 1365fps Proper Stonedead 40g 1353fps Cheddite T5 42g 1351fps RC 40 1349fps Rio Mini Magnum 40g 1336fps RC Camo 42g 1299fps Victory Mini Magnum 40g 1288fps Fiocchi Semi Magnum 42g 1248fps Mirage Semi Magnum 42g 1207fps Lyalvale Super Game 42g 1180fps Eley Alphamax+ 42g 1171fps Gamebore Buffalo 42g 1146fps Hull Ultramax 42g Magnum 3" Cartridges 1322fps Cheddite Magnum 50g 1309fps Winchester Super X 1 7/8oz 1288fps RC 50 1252fps Mirage Magnum 50g 1238fps Hull Solway 50g 1226fps Fiocchi 50g 1226fps Eley Alphamax+ 46g 1221fps Hull Extreme Hunting 50g 1220fps Winchester Super Speed 50g 1184fps Gamebore Mammoth 50g 1181fps Lyalvale Max Game 50g 1141fps FOB Gold 53g Super Magnum 3.5" 1321fps Gamebore Mammoth 62g 1245fps Mirage Super Magnum 66g 1195fps Fiocchi Ultra Magnum 63g Non Toxic Game 2.75" 1458fps Rottweil Steel Game HV 32g 1449fps RC3 Steel 28g 1440fps Fiocchi Steel 32g 1434fps Rottweil Steel Game Speed 28g 1438fps Winchester Special Canard 32g 1428fps Rottweil Copper Unlimited 34g 1424fps RC Atomic Steel 34g 1423fps Winchester Blindside 35g 1413fps RC Atomic Steel 32g 1399fps Mirage Steel 32g 1396fps Gamebore Super Steel 32g 1385fps Rottweil Steel Game 32g 1382fps Rio Blue Steel 32g 1379fps Fiocchi Steel 35g 1372fps Bornaghi Steel 36g 1369fps RC Technosteel 34g 1328fps Eley VIP Steel 32g 1294fps Lyalvale Supreme Steel 32g 1290fps Cheddite Steel 32g 1282fps Cheddite Steel 34g 1262fps Hull Steel Game Extra 32g 1245fps Eley VIP Bismuth 32g 1152fps Gamebore Tung Mtrx 32g Steel Game 3" 1569fps Eley Lightening Steel 32g 1524fps RC Hyperfast 34g 1508fps B&P Valle Steel 33g 1463fps Winchester Blindside 1 3/8oz 1457fps B&P Dual Shock 36g 1457fps Rottweil Steel Game 36g 1450fps Cheddite HP Steel 36g 1406fps RC Atomic 36g 1373fps Eley Lightening Steel 36g 1376fps Lyalvale HP Steel 36g 1336fps Gamebore Mam Steel 36g 1312fps Hull Solway Steel 36g 1269fps Mirage Steel 36g 1226fps Hull Solway Mag Steel 34g 1197fps Rem Sportsman Steel 36g Non Toxic Super Magnum 3.5" 1428fps Gamebore Mam Steel 42g 1409fps Winchester Blindside 46g 1377fps Winchester Drylock 44g 1353fps Mirage Steel 39g 1212fps Gamebore Tung Mtrx 60g Clay Cartridges 21g 1494fps Cheddite Universal Trap 21g 1455fps Lyalvale Nitedal Steel 21g 1372fps RC Romagnola 21g 1319fps Gamebore Super Steel 21g 1312fps Hull Comp X 21g 1306fps Fiocchi TT21 1289fps Mirage Supertarget 21g 1291fps Lyalvale Super Light 21g 1254fps Eley First Light 21g Clay Cartridge 24g 1470fps Cheddite Mach 3 HV 24g 1446fps RC4 Hyperfast 24g 1402fps Hull Sovereign 24g 1399fps NSI Diamond Sporting 24g 1397fps Hull Pro One 24g 1387fps Cheddite SG Young 24g 1387fps Trust Sporting 24g 1381fps Fiocchi FBlu 24g 1380fps Fiocchi FSteel 24g 1376fps Mirage Supertarget 24g 1374fps Pegoraro Speed 24g 1374fps Cheddite Universal Trap 24g 1374fps Fiocchi FBlack 24g 1363fps Mirage T2 Competition 24g 1361fps FOB Mondial 24g 1359fps Cheddite Trap Oro 24g 1358fps Cheddite Drago Skeet T3 24g 1353fps Mirage BOL D'or 24g 1351fps Hull Inter Comp HV 24g 1352fps Gamebore Blue Diamond 24g 1350fps Rio Target 24g 1340fps RC4 Excellence Trap 24g 1338fps Gamebore Platinum Trap 24g 1332fps Rio Star Team Trap 24g 1331fps Pegoraro Elite 24g 1326fps Cheddite Smart Strike 24g 1320fps Mirage Grand Italia 24g 1318fps Fiocchi Top One 24g 1318fps Eley Rebel 24g 1314fps Fiocchi Golden Trap 24g 1313fps Eley First Light 24g 1312fps Eley Amber 24g 1297fps Victory Compak 24g 1296fps Lyalvale High Velocity 24g 1294fps Gamebore Black Gold 24g 1287fps Cheddite 2 Shot Skeet 24g 1283fps RC Romagnola 24g 1285fps Fiocchi Official Trap 24g 1277fps RC2 Competition 24g 1273fps Gamebore White Gold Pro Steel 24g 1270fps Gamebore Evo Competition 24g 1260fps Mirage Pro Sport Extra 24g 1246gps Fiocchi Official Trap 24g 1235fps Gamebore Super Steel 24g 1233fps Eley 1st Select 24g 1214fps Eley Olympic Blue 24g Clay Cartridge 27-28g 1479fps Pegoraro Steel 28g 1449fps RC3 Steel 28g 1430fps Gamebore Dark Storm 28g 1405fps RC4 Hyperfast 28g 1401fps Lyalvale Power Gold 28g 1398fps Trust Sporting 28g 1393fps B&P Sporting Clays 28g 1383fps Kent Velocity 28g 1383fps Lyalvale Power Red 27g 1379fps Hull Sovereign Parcours 28g 1377fps Hull Sovereign 28g 1364fps Trust Super Trap 28g 1363fps Lyalvale High Velocity 28g 1361fps Cheddite Mach 3 Free Shots 28g 1347fps Cheddite Smart Strike 28g 1347fps NSI Diamond Sporting 28g 1343fps Pegoraro Speed 28g 1342fps Cheddite Mach 3 28g 1341fps Jocker 28g 1340fps FOB Sport 28g 1337fps RC3 Competition 28g 1336fps Lyalvale World Cup 28g 1335fps Cheddite Universal Trap 28g 1330fps Rio Star Team Trap 28g 1328fps Mirage Steel Competition 28g 1328fps Hull Super Fast 27g 1325fps Gamebore Evo Sporting 28g 1323fps Hull Pro One 28g 1321fps NSI Prima 28g 1320fps Rio Target 28g 1319fps Black Gold HV Steel 28g 1318fps Cheddite Sporting 28g 1318fps Lyalvale Super Comp 28g 1317fps Mirage RvS Evolution 28g 1317fps Gamebore Patriot 28g 1316fps Eley VIP Federation 28g 1314fps Gamebore White Gold 28g 1312fps RC4 Red Shot 28g 1311fps Winchester Blue Light 28g 1310fps B&P F2 Legend 28g 1310fps Fiocchi FBlu 28g 1310fps D&J Clay Target 28g 1300fps Just Cartridges CSP 28g 1298fps Gamebore Super Steel 28g 1297fps Tunet Universelle 28g 1297fps Gamebore Velocity+ 28g 1296fps Mirage Elica 28g 1296fps Lyalvale Pro Comp Skeet 28g 1295fps Gamebore Platinum Trap 28g 1293fps Eley Superb 28g 1293fps Eley Olympic Blue 28g 1286fps RC2 Competition 28g 1285fps RC Romagnola 28g 1282fps Lyalvale Power Blue 28g 1281fps Fiocchi Official Skeet 28g 1281fps Gamebore Black Gold 28g 1279fps Fiocchi F3 28g 1275fps Hull Pro Piston 28g 1274fps Hull Pro Sport 28g 1268fps Lyalvale English Sporter 28g 1263fps Fiocchi Golden Trap 28g 1259fps Proper Sporting 28g 1259fps Victory Challenger 28g 1259fps Mirage T2 Competition 28g 1259fps Fiocchi 4HV 28h 1258fps Eley First 28g 1254fps Mirage Supertarget 28g 1254fps Fiocchi Top One 28g 1253fps Fiocchi TTone 28g 1251fps Victory Sporter 28g 1251fps Fiocchi Official Trap 28g 1247fps Mirage BOL D'or 28g 1245fps FOB Viper 28g 1242fps Mirage Grand Italia 28g 1235fps RC4 Trap 28g 1234fps Hull Pro One DTL300 28g 1233fps Gamebore Blue Diamond 28g 1227fps Gamebore White Gold Pro Steel 28g 1223fps Fiocchi FBlack 28g 1219fps Mirage T2 Competition DTL 28g 1214fps Hull Comp X 28g 1207fps Hull Sporting 100 28g 1194fps Mirage Pro Sport Extra 28g Clay Cartridges 32g 1370fps Remington Nitro Gold 1330fps Winchester Silver 20g 1425fps Cheddite T1 24g Fibre Wad 1339fps Lyalvale Special Pigeon 21g 1322fps Fiocchi 30g 1280fps Fiocchi 3" Magnum 1273fps RC Semi Magnum 32g 1260fps RC JK6 T3 26g 1244fps Viri/FOB 30g 1224fps Gamebore Pure Gold 28g Edited August 25, 2018 by johnnytheboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
williamwansbeck Posted August 26, 2018 Report Share Posted August 26, 2018 Are the all tested over chronometer values. or manufacturers claimed velocities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnytheboy Posted August 26, 2018 Author Report Share Posted August 26, 2018 17 minutes ago, williamwansbeck said: Are the all tested over chronometer values. or manufacturers claimed velocities. All fired over my chronograph, all figures are a average of three shots Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
williamwansbeck Posted August 26, 2018 Report Share Posted August 26, 2018 Thats some really sound info then, as manufacturers seem to be way low in many cases Well done mate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ag12g Posted August 27, 2018 Report Share Posted August 27, 2018 lost count after 200 how many did you test Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wasabi Posted September 17, 2018 Report Share Posted September 17, 2018 Top work! Love reading these! (I know I'm a geek) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted September 18, 2018 Report Share Posted September 18, 2018 Interesting reading. I currently use Lyalvale Power Gold (the fastest and the ones I rate highest) and Eley Olympics and Superbs (both decent shells). I haven't noticed any difference in the Eleys and note that they are exactly the same speed - with a big price difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokersmith Posted September 18, 2018 Report Share Posted September 18, 2018 Some of the ones I rate highest are in the bottom 20% on speed ..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted September 18, 2018 Report Share Posted September 18, 2018 I noticed that shells I have used in the past - which were really good - are near the bottom. I started to wonder just how much high velocity counts for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokersmith Posted September 18, 2018 Report Share Posted September 18, 2018 2 hours ago, Gordon R said: I noticed that shells I have used in the past - which were really good - are near the bottom. I started to wonder just how much high velocity counts for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retsdon Posted October 20, 2018 Report Share Posted October 20, 2018 On 18/09/2018 at 19:37, Gordon R said: I started to wonder just how much high velocity counts for. Perhaps there are ballistic experts on here who could run with this? You'd have to think that there should be some sort of correlation between the optimum charge/speed of burn, the weight of shot, and the size of shot. And an optimum balance between all three? For example, would it be that with smaller shot - say 7s and above - the higher velocity blows holes in the pattern? Just a query, because my ballistics knowledge is thin to very thin.... Kudos to johnnytheboy for doing the research!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted October 20, 2018 Report Share Posted October 20, 2018 Many years ago Lyalvale started producing cartridges with speeds far in excess of the norm at that time. Others jumped on the speed bandwagon and it was touted as a must have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neutron619 Posted October 20, 2018 Report Share Posted October 20, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Retsdon said: Perhaps there are ballistic experts on here who could run with this? You'd have to think that there should be some sort of correlation between the optimum charge/speed of burn, the weight of shot, and the size of shot. And an optimum balance between all three? For example, would it be that with smaller shot - say 7s and above - the higher velocity blows holes in the pattern? Just a query, because my ballistics knowledge is thin to very thin.... Kudos to johnnytheboy for doing the research!! On the basis of my research - mostly into the small bores which tend to display the features of shotgun ballistics rather more obviously than your average 12 gauge - generally, "speed" is damaging. Too much detail to go into it all now, but in short, if you want to tighten patterns (with all else staying the same), you need to damage the pellets less as they pass down the barrel. If you've got - say - 28" of barrel to get them up to speed, then you have to whack them a lot harder to get them to 1500fps than you do to get them to - say - 1150fps, which tends to cause proportionally more damage. Ergo, worse patterns. There are no hard and fast rules though - only likelihoods. Given the choice, I'd take 1150fps over 1500 any day. Edited October 20, 2018 by neutron619 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonepark Posted October 20, 2018 Report Share Posted October 20, 2018 I would go further, speed is not the pattern killer but pressure. If pressure exceeds the ability of the shot to withstand it, the shot will deform and the pattern will go to **** because all the pellets are no longer round. Cartridges can go up to 1050 bar - (15228psi), and a lot get close when they are pushing for high speed or larger loads. In order to get round this manufacturers should use shot with at least 6% antimony to resist the deformation (protects up to 15050psi) but they tend to use 3% (resists up to 11600 psi) for game loads and 5 % for top end clay loads (resists up to 14130psi), hence the better retention of pattern in high end clay loads. I load my own in 410 and can tell when the pressure threshold is crossed as what is a good pattern, suddenly deteriorates depending on the lead hardness (controlled by the antimony) happens at 1100ft/sec with soft lead (2% antimony), 1250 with 5% antimony and 1300 with 6% antimony test load (and which is a very hot load which failed pressure testing). If it was up to me I would insist in manufacturer quoting the average pressure for any cartridge on the box and antimony percentage of the lead. It would soon sort the good cartridges from the mediocre as for me pattern trumps speed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted October 20, 2018 Report Share Posted October 20, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, neutron619 said: On the basis of my research - mostly into the small bores which tend to display the features of shotgun ballistics rather more obviously than your average 12 gauge - generally, "speed" is damaging. Too much detail to go into it all now, but in short, if you want to tighten patterns (with all else staying the same), you need to damage the pellets less as they pass down the barrel. If you've got - say - 28" of barrel to get them up to speed, then you have to whack them a lot harder to get them to 1500fps than you do to get them to - say - 1150fps, which tends to cause proportionally more damage. Ergo, worse patterns. There are no hard and fast rules though - only likelihoods. Given the choice, I'd take 1150fps over 1500 any day. The difference at 50 yards is c50 ft/sec and c0.2 ft/lbs with a No 6 shot. 22 minutes ago, Stonepark said: I would go further, speed is not the pattern killer but pressure. If pressure exceeds the ability of the shot to withstand it, the shot will deform and the pattern will go to **** because all the pellets are no longer round. Cartridges can go up to 1050 bar - (15228psi), and a lot get close when they are pushing for high speed or larger loads. In order to get round this manufacturers should use shot with at least 6% antimony to resist the deformation (protects up to 15050psi) but they tend to use 3% (resists up to 11600 psi) for game loads and 5 % for top end clay loads (resists up to 14130psi), hence the better retention of pattern in high end clay loads. I load my own in 410 and can tell when the pressure threshold is crossed as what is a good pattern, suddenly deteriorates depending on the lead hardness (controlled by the antimony) happens at 1100ft/sec with soft lead (2% antimony), 1250 with 5% antimony and 1300 with 6% antimony test load (and which is a very hot load which failed pressure testing). If it was up to me I would insist in manufacturer quoting the average pressure for any cartridge on the box and antimony percentage of the lead. It would soon sort the good cartridges from the mediocre as for me pattern trumps speed. The expression, "pattern kills" has been in use for well over 100 years and remains valid and will do so as long as our quarry consists of flesh and blood. Edited October 20, 2018 by wymberley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carper1948 Posted November 16, 2021 Report Share Posted November 16, 2021 (edited) Thank you Johnnytheboy, I have found this testing of 12b cartridge speeds very interesting, and where we have both Chronographed the same Brand/shot weight cartridges my results are in the same ball-park. I am using the Caldwell Pro with 6V led lit light bars; I reload all my C/F rifle ammo. I have used the SAGA brand of cartridges for many, many years and now they are no longer imported into the UK so I've had to look for alternatives, and it's been frustrating to say the least, because I've found Manufactures "claimed" speeds are factious/contentious and cannot be reproduced in real conditions; no matter what length of barrel is used. The 32gm SAGA 6's used to return speeds of 1310fps in 28inch barrel, 1354fps in 31inch barrel (extended 1" chokes) and 1380fps in 33inch barrel (extended 1" chokes) - Manufactures claimed speed was 1435fps, so not too shabby with 33inch barrel at 1380fps. Likewise the 36gm Saga 5's and 4's returned speeds of 1288fps, 1310fps, 1331fps respectively - claimed speed was 1400fps My worst encounter where I was seduced (conned) by Speed was with the premium Lyalvale Ultra 36gm fibre No4 Claimed speed of 1480fps. Well, with 28inch barrel chrono'd speed was average 1134fps, with 31inch barrel 1157fps and with 33inch barrel 1174fps? Regardless of what people views are on speed V decent killing patterns, I'm looking for the same, very similar, cartridge speeds, whatever the shot load, so I can maintain same lead on the target/quarry when that trigger is squeezed; I do not have to compensate for a slower or faster cartridge and at extended ranges up to 70yards it does make a difference for me. Anyway I have chrone'd some cartridges which I could not find on Johnnytheboy's list, and include this via attachment. Hope it may be of use to someone. Regards Carper1948 Roy's Test 1-12 bore Cartridge speed RESULTS.docx Edited November 16, 2021 by Carper1948 spelling correction Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carper1948 Posted November 16, 2021 Report Share Posted November 16, 2021 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Carper1948 said: Apologies, had trouble with attachment loading . Edited November 16, 2021 by Carper1948 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carper1948 Posted November 16, 2021 Report Share Posted November 16, 2021 (edited) 33 minutes ago, Carper1948 said: 33 minutes ago, Carper1948 said: Edited November 16, 2021 by Carper1948 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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