Law and order?

[old'un]

The situation these two officers were in could have ended with them being seriously hurt trying to make an arrest, what’s the answer to this mob rule, where is law and order going in this country?.....https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/met-police-hackney-mcdonalds-video-arrest-taser-punch-kick-assault-footage-a8511481.html

[Newbie to this]

If the Police have lost law and order, then there is only one answer, deploy the military to regain order.

[JRDS]

IMHO all Police should be armed now.

[The Mighty Prawn]

30 minutes ago, JRDS said:

IMHO all Police should be armed now.

Don't think that would have helped in this situation though!

Tricky one as they are massively overstretched currently, and have lost the support of a massive swathe of society (some rightly, many very wrongly)

The recently published tables that only 10% of crimes are solved, and that's only of the ones reported, means that loads of scrotes get away with so much they have no fear of getting caught and even if they do there's a statistically slim chance of getting prosecuted and found guilty.

It's much more nuanced than more police or tougher sentencing, these people need opportunities for being an upstanding member of society so jobs, homes, security - there is no quick fix

[JohnfromUK]

Personal views:

I would not support the Police being routinely armed.  But they should have armed support as and when needed.  There are a lot of good police (men and women), sadly badly led by the 'managers' who are now the senior posts.  These people are driven not by public need and demand, but by statistics and targets.  Meeting those is what wins promotion.

The police should be spending their time catching burglars, rapists, fraudsters etc., not motorists a few m.p.h. (or even as now suggested just 1 m.p.h.) over the limit, or with a tail light bulb out.

But perhaps the biggest issue is that when they do catch someone, the courts let the offenders out to commit more crime.

The whole Police/Justice/Penalty system needs overhauling to ensure that Police are targeting their time at the offenders the public wish to see caught, courts are sentencing people who commit crimes the public feel strongly about to tough (short sharp shock 1st offence, LONG term austere and TOUGH custody for repeat offences) sentences.  Sentences to be served in full - i.e. 1 year means 365 days - extended for bad behaviour.  Jails should have no TV, no internet, no phones, no smoking, no alcohol or drugs unless medically needed.

Most of us were brought up to 'fear' getting caught and the resultant punishment; that doesn't seem to be the case now.

As I said at the start - personal views!

 

[Walker570]

2nd Sept I will be retired from 'The Job' for 28yrs.  B'ham, woman stabbed along with daughter having made a number of calls to police for help. In my day we would have arrived like a genie out of a bottle and with luck they would still be alive.  Fast back to 1974, I wrote a letter to the Police Fedration Magazine outlining my views on the proposed fast tract promotion from Uni and then suggested it would see the end of British Policing as we know and expect.  We now have a bunch of useless Managers at top level, some even promoting drug taking another saying 1 mph over the limit should be considered a speeding offence, these people are over educated idiots in La La Land.  

I knew the identity of a thief and went to  a local police officer with the details..."No No No!!  You can't tell me, you have to go through Crime Stoppers" but in my day the information would have been logged in my notebook and then passed to the Detective Inspector at my Station and a fair chance arrests would be made.

Senior Officers in my day when I started on the beat where almost all ex military who had worked their way up through the ranks over a fair number of years...Sergeant maybe 8-10yrs  Inspector 15 plus. They knew the trade unlike the modern day recruit who has to check their CV before they can make a decision..  Been there ..done it.

Edited August 29, 2018 by Walker570

[Vince Green]

The last thing a copper wants during a scrap is a highly vunerable pistol in a holster at his side, he will be too scared of losing it . That changes the way the police deal with situations

[Rim Fire]

Unfortunately it is not one sided there are some bad coppers out there and it reflects on the rest 

[Bigbob]

The problem is the police have lost all respect due to there attitude and hitting easy targets like motorists  while doing little to fight real crime 

[JRDS]

34 minutes ago, Bigbob said:

The problem is the police have lost all respect due to there attitude and hitting easy targets like motorists  while doing little to fight real crime 

For little read nothing.

[mel b3]

ive watched the video several times , and as an average member of the public , i would have been quite happy for those officers to .

A, use an asp to beat the offender on the floor until he stopped behaving like an animal.

B, use an asp to beat the thugs in the crowd that were kicking and grabbing the officer and generally behaving like  animals.

C, use a tazer on either the thug on the floor , or, the thugs in the crowd.

the problem is that many people have no respect for the police , the police have to shoulder responsibility for much of this due to their own failings in the past . its about time that money was spent on a decent police force , with decent police officers , with a few years of life experience, and who know the difference between right and wrong.

[Muddy Funker]

I've said this a million times now, senior officers care more about public perception than they do officer safety.

Fact, people sometimes need to be arrested and occasionally it has to be done the not nice way. Being polite and amenable doesn't always work. 

Do people honestly think cops go to work wanting to roll around on the floor scrapping every day? Those cops that do are the exception to the rule.

Secondly there's so much scare mongering in conflict training these days you can see so many less experienced officers scared of even touching anyone, through fear of losing their job and the amazing (lol) pension.

Those officers on the ground were doing their job and being attacked, I'd have happily seen one stand up and knock out the first person that stepped forward, then the next and the next.

I'm going home at the end of my shift and if a situation is going to end in violence it will be the other person ending up in hospital not me.

 

[JohnfromUK]

5 minutes ago, mel b3 said:

its about time that money was spent on a decent police force , with decent police officers , with a few years of life experience, and who know the difference between right and wrong.

I think by and large we actually have decent police officers - certainly the (near 100%) majority I know/have met have been decent.  Of course there are a few rotten apples and jobsworths, but the majority are decent.  Problem is they have abysmal management in the form of their senior officers/chief constables who are basically 'business graduates/accounts graduates' in uniform and all about their egos, and promotions - and - you guessed in - bonuses (yes - Chief Constables get (large) bonuses because they are performing so well.  Not forgetting a six figure salary, car, driver, very generous pension .......

Poor leadership brings a poor and disrespected organisation in which the public has no confidence.  The Police need new leadership, not a whole new force ..... and the bonuses should go.

Policing and justice should NOT be bonus incentiveised - it should be done properly - for a fair salary.

[12gauge82]

2 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

I think by and large we actually have decent police officers - certainly the (near 100%) majority I know/have met have been decent.  Of course there are a few rotten apples and jobsworths, but the majority are decent.  Problem is they have abysmal management in the form of their senior officers/chief constables who are basically 'business graduates/accounts graduates' in uniform and all about their egos, and promotions - and - you guessed in - bonuses (yes - Chief Constables get (large) bonuses because they are performing so well.  Not forgetting a six figure salary, car, driver, very generous pension .......

Poor leadership brings a poor and disrespected organisation in which the public has no confidence.  The Police need new leadership, not a whole new force ..... and the bonuses should go.

Policing and justice should NOT be bonus incentiveised - it should be done properly - for a fair salary.

Spot on again john

[ordnance]

4 hours ago, Vince Green said:

The last thing a copper wants during a scrap is a highly vunerable pistol in a holster at his side, he will be too scared of losing it . That changes the way the police deal with situations

You would wonder how they manage in this part of the UK to be armed and carry out their duties without being scared of losing their firearm, and the way they deal with situations is just the same as the rest of the UK. The main reason the police are not armed is for political reasons, they would not be able to portray the UK as a place so peaceful that the police don't even need to be armed. Armed response is better than nothing, but responding after the event is usually to late. 

Edited August 29, 2018 by ordnance

[12gauge82]

1 minute ago, ordnance said:

You would wonder how they manage in this part of the UK to be armed and carry out their duties, without being scared of losing their firearm. 

I would imagine it comes down to nesesity, the police are only allowed to act by consent, the people of Scotland, England and Wales don't want armed cops yet, although it's heading that way, northern Ireland is a different kettle of fish.

[mel b3]

2 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

I think by and large we actually have decent police officers - certainly the (near 100%) majority I know/have met have been decent.  Of course there are a few rotten apples and jobsworths, but the majority are decent.  Problem is they have abysmal management in the form of their senior officers/chief constables who are basically 'business graduates/accounts graduates' in uniform and all about their egos, and promotions - and - you guessed in - bonuses (yes - Chief Constables get (large) bonuses because they are performing so well.  Not forgetting a six figure salary, car, driver, very generous pension .......

Poor leadership brings a poor and disrespected organisation in which the public has no confidence.  The Police need new leadership, not a whole new force ..... and the bonuses should go.

Policing and justice should NOT be bonus incentiveised - it should be done properly - for a fair salary.

The police service has many fine upstanding officers , it also harbours , liars ,thieves,rapists , and all other manner of criminal. And yes,I speak from personal experience. 

[ordnance]

3 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I would imagine it comes down to nesesity, the police are only allowed to act by consent, the people of Scotland, England and Wales don't want armed cops yet, although it's heading that way, northern Ireland is a different kettle of fish.

N/I  shows arming the police is not difficult, as for consent i can not remember people hear giving connect most just had the common sense to see it was necessary. Plus the police don't need public consent just political.  

[unico1]

6 hours ago, Walker570 said:

2nd Sept I will be retired from 'The Job' for 28yrs.  B'ham, woman stabbed along with daughter having made a number of calls to police for help. In my day we would have arrived like a genie out of a bottle and with luck they would still be alive.  Fast back to 1974, I wrote a letter to the Police Fedration Magazine outlining my views on the proposed fast tract promotion from Uni and then suggested it would see the end of British Policing as we know and expect.  We now have a bunch of useless Managers at top level, some even promoting drug taking another saying 1 mph over the limit should be considered a speeding offence, these people are over educated idiots in La La Land.  

I knew the identity of a thief and went to  a local police officer with the details..."No No No!!  You can't tell me, you have to go through Crime Stoppers" but in my day the information would have been logged in my notebook and then passed to the Detective Inspector at my Station and a fair chance arrests would be made.

Senior Officers in my day when I started on the beat where almost all ex military who had worked their way up through the ranks over a fair number of years...Sergeant maybe 8-10yrs  Inspector 15 plus. They knew the trade unlike the modern day recruit who has to check their CV before they can make a decision..  Been there ..done it.

Couldn’t agree with this post more, seems pcs have 4 days at work then 5 off! No wonder it’s a free for all for the toe rag society. Just the other day my neighbor a police officer saw a person in a vehicle stopped outside my drive taking a picture of my van, he noted the reg as it’s in his instinct. Guess what two nights after someone attempted via cutting damn big hole in me van door to nick my kit. He reported it at the time of spotting the vehicle and was given a crime number, I too reported it when they did my van telling the person to link the two incident numbers together. Now if that’s not putting two and two together and getting 5!! I don’t know what is! Received a letter the other day from constabulary saying sorry due to insufficient information this case will be closed. So going full circle back in your day they would of had a knock on the door. Sign of the time but flipping frustrating.

[ordnance]

6 minutes ago, mel b3 said:

The police service has many fine upstanding officers , it also harbours , liars ,thieves,rapists , and all other manner of criminal. And yes,I speak from personal experience. 

Like any other large organisation then,  why would you expect the police to be any different. You could add the NHS church's and numerous organisations. 

[mel b3]

2 minutes ago, ordnance said:

Like any other large organisation then,  why would you expect the police to be any different. You could add the NHS church's and numerous organisations. 

That's true enough , maybe I just expect too much from a police officer. 

[Walker570]

Yep, we had our black sheep but today as a police officer if I said that I would be out looking for another job....probably reported by one of my fellow officers and that is another whole big story of distrust within the ranks.   One officer recently told my wife he no longer thought himself as a crime fighter but more or less a social worker.  That brings me to another waste of police money. You will have heard/read where when a serious crime takes place, murder or serious harm, special trained police officers are alloted to act as social workers, support officers they are called. Now in my view that is not the prime job of police officers, certainly not having them on the wages list when they are not doing the job the public expects of them.

Who thought that one up and how many are we paying for in our taxes. 

In my day we had local beat officers who knew their area and would not only check up on such things but would also keep an eye on other vulnerable people during their rounds, picking up information as they went through the day, but of course our highly educated managers think this is a waste of money so create a complelely new department of staff disconnected from crime fighting.

 

[Scully]

I'm all for arming the police, with the usual provisos of course. ? The old 'when seconds count the police are minutes away' adage is corny admittedly, but nevertheless true. 

[12gauge82]

56 minutes ago, ordnance said:

N/I  shows arming the police is not difficult, as for consent i can not remember people hear giving connect most just had the common sense to see it was necessary. Plus the police don't need public consent just political.  

Policing by consent is what British policing is (at least in theory) based on, I think it's widely accepted on the main land, at least until recent times, that the public don't want the police routinely armed, although there is an argument for it in future.

If your interested, take a look at this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles

[ordnance]

12 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Policing by consent is what British policing is (at least in theory) based on, I think it's widely accepted on the main land, at least until recent times, that the public don't want the police routinely armed, although there is an argument for it in future.

If your interested, take a look at this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles

Times change, as you say maybe something the will have to look at in the future.  When this is brought up there are all sorts of reasons given why the police shouldn't or couldn't be armed, the fact is they could most of the concerns are unfounded.