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1 minute ago, stagboy said:

It seems you don't.

I have named nobody, I have not defined any proportion, merely " a minority". And that is true, as we have recently seen. I myself don't know the size of this minority, but it seems that it is larger than I thought. But that it exists is beyond question.

 

But you have defined a proportion, you have made an unsubstantiated accusation of involvement in wildlife crime against a "larger" and " even larger minority" involved in a particular shooting sport.....Grouse shooting!..........Is that not a generalisation?

You have also named people who are involved with a particular shooting sport ........."the Grouse lot" (your words) that is also a generalisation and tarring all involved in grouse shooting, with the same brush!

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I am weary of your  desperate semantics and I have no wish to prolong a futile game of ping pong with somebody who has racked up 4,250 posts! You know the point I am making. You don't have to agree with me. I have said my piece. But here is a relevant sentence in an abstract from a peer reviewed scientific research paper, dated December 2001, Raptors and Red Grouse: Conservation Conflicts and Management Solutions, from a distinguished team led by the late Prof Simon Thirgood, a truly excellent independent researcher who did a lot of work for the GWCT and was probably the leading expert on raptor-grouse conflicts:

"Persecution of raptors on grouse moors is widespread and limits the range and abundance of Hen Harriers (Circus cyaneus), Peregrine Falcons (  Falco peregrinus), and Golden Eagles (Aquila chrysaetos)."

Was he wrong? I doubt it. Has the situation suddenly improved in the last 16 years? I do hope so. But a minority persist. And a somewhat greater minority still make excuses for them. What a shame.

 

Edited by stagboy
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Must admit Stag boy i do agree with panama above, there is far far too many 'real shooters' and 'sportsmen'  who would happily throu grouse shooting under the bus despite sounding like they have no real knowledge or experience of wot is actually happening on the moors and just how much attidudes (which in many cases were very much entrenched/set in stone) have changed massively in just a few decades.

 

Ur blaming the 'grouse lot', more lowland keepers are done for wildlife crime than upland keepers, was only a few years ago some idiot got done way down south and had feed bags of dead BoP's just lying everywhere at his house as well as some in his freezer. Think he was well into double figures+ about of bodies lying about.

I think somewhere in that brilliant article by Beefy botham ( doing far more good in the las few years than all the other org's combined) that a grouse keeper has not been convicted of shooting a HH for something like 15 years.

Some folk need to stop believing all the propoganda that is spouted by some.

 

The whole grouse thing is just a political football for the anti's, it is far more easily defended and truely self sustaining than every other aspect of game shooting (including wildfowling, as ur totally dependant on migratory birds).

Wether u like wot u percieve to be the grouse  lot or not, if it goes the rest will fall like a deck of cards very very quickly.

Very few shoots including DIY syndicates could provide much shooting if it wasn't for tr release of non native birds.

 

I spend  alot of time on grouse moors with my dogs and just love it, while the guns are often very rich they are some of the nicest folk i've worked dogs for and there knowledge and respect for the countryside is second to none generally far higher than wot i usually see when on lowand shoots (also there marking/counting ability is generally pretty good too, usually compeletly absent on low ground shoots, well most i go too)

 

I also read in that article by Botham it looks like the rspb is going to be in for a real ruff ride over the next wee while, seemingly there manipulation and mis quoting of scientific studies has upset some real scientists as well as some real shody studies.

In the ST this week there's an article about Blue/Mountain Hare numbers in scotland (again very much aimed at grouse shooting) claims BH numbers at !% of the 1950 total yet every one else rips apart the whole study, methods and conclusions, they have there own very detailed BH counts going back decades upon decade and shows no real change in populations

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15 minutes ago, stagboy said:

I am weary of your  desperate semantics and I have no wish to prolong a futile game of ping pong with somebody who has racked up 4,250 posts! You know the point I am making. You don't have to agree with me. I have said my piece. But here is a relevant sentence in an abstract from a peer reviewed scientific research paper, dated December 2001, Raptors and Red Grouse: Conservation Conflicts and Management Solutions, from a distinguished team led by the late Prof Simon Thirgood, a truly excellent independent researcher who did a lot of work for the GWCT and was probably the leading expert on raptor-grouse conflicts:

"Persecution of raptors on grouse moors is widespread and limits the range and abundance of Hen Harriers (Circus cyaneus), Peregrine Falcons (  Falco peregrinus), and Golden Eagles (Aquila chrysaetos)."

Was he wrong? I doubt it. Has the situation suddenly improved in the last 16 years? I do hope so. But a minority persist. And a somewhat greater minority still make excuses for them. What a shame.

 

 

It all depends where he done his study, i would be very surprised if any english grouse moors have ever persecuted a GE in the last 50 years as never been any there anyway to persecute.

 

If ur talking about scotland, not going to say will never have happened, but i would imagine most keepers would rather have a GE on there beat than a HH hoping the GE's will keep the smaller BoP's away.

Really GE in scotland are really pretty common iin many areas so much so they often take chicks away to release in other areas, so i don't really think the population is suffering.

Not about to generalise and blame shepherds but often a shepherd would have far more to lose/at threat from GE than agrouse keeper.

 

The grouse industry in scotland is taking a right bashing the now, more so over the Hares, but the strange thing really not that many grouse moors in scotland and most scottish moors will NEVER make a profit (not year on year), even now with smaller beats and plenty staff stil can't produce enough grouse to shoot every year,

It wouldn't surprise me if 1 or 2 big english moors will shoot more grouse than all the scottish moors put together, be very easy this year as few scottish moors shooting, althou not many english 1's are either, ut a few big boys are, and they will still shoot a few birds no doubt.

Many english moors will shoot more in 1 day than most scottish moors shoot in a season even when they are shooting

 

Plus back in 2001, thats alomst 20 years ago now, depending how many years the study was over, back them all sorts really was happening and not just on upland shoots, even in the 80's some old school keepers main form of vermin control would be the 'tin' or the 'bottle', luckily i'm too young to have seen it but heard stories that would curl my hair from some of the old timers

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36 minutes ago, scotslad said:

It all depends where he done his study, i would be very surprised if any english grouse moors have ever persecuted a GE in the last 50 years as never been any there anyway to persecute.

I believe this was based on the famous research conducted at Langholm. As for golden eagles and English moors, you are right, but I think the statement was including eagles as one of three species being adversely impacted by persecution on grouse moors - even though the eagle applies only to Scotland.

The GWCT are currently stating on their website: 

Q: Why are there so few hen harriers on English driven grouse moors?

A: In addition to the reasons above, it has been shown that illegal culling by gamekeepers can restrict hen harrier numbers on some grouse moors.

No denial there about he fact of persecution or its impact.

The GWCT go on to say: "If there are too many harriers on a moor the shoot becomes uneconomic, the gamekeepers lose their jobs, and numbers of ground-nesting birds decline, including ones of conservation concern such as waders. The Joint Raptor Study and subsequent studies at Langholm demonstrated that this situation can really happen and is no exaggeration."

Fair point. That's the clear motive for the current levels of raptor crime on driven grouse moors. So, how do we save driven grouse shooting?

Not by stamping on owls, that's for sure.

In my own view, the Hen Harrier Recovery Project, involving brood management of hen harriers (opposed by the RSPB), so we don't get damaging concentrations, is the best way forward. But if what I have rather rudely called "the grouse lot" keep on trying to deny or obfuscate the fact and importance of criminality, then we won't get there, because the credibility of the shooting side will be so shot, and we will seem so unreasonable and arrogant,  that the politicians will be persuaded to legislate.  

Hence my frustration with some of the "grouse lot". 

 

   

Edited by stagboy
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I think this has raised another issue around the difference in attitudes of shoots, I helped out on two shoots last year, beating, picking up and Vermin control, one had a very open minded and thought out view of its place in the countryside, the othe had a scorched earth policy to anything that wasn’t a game bird.  One struggles for beaters, the other doesn’t, I wonder why...  Although neither in any way acted illegally the ethical view of one compared to the other was astonishing.

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1 hour ago, stagboy said:

I am weary of your  desperate semantics and I have no wish to prolong a futile game of ping pong with somebody who has racked up 4,250 posts! You know the point I am making. You don't have to agree with me. I have said my piece. But here is a relevant sentence in an abstract from a peer reviewed scientific research paper, dated December 2001, Raptors and Red Grouse: Conservation Conflicts and Management Solutions, from a distinguished team led by the late Prof Simon Thirgood, a truly excellent independent researcher who did a lot of work for the GWCT and was probably the leading expert on raptor-grouse conflicts:

"Persecution of raptors on grouse moors is widespread and limits the range and abundance of Hen Harriers (Circus cyaneus), Peregrine Falcons (  Falco peregrinus), and Golden Eagles (Aquila chrysaetos)."

Was he wrong? I doubt it. Has the situation suddenly improved in the last 16 years? I do hope so. But a minority persist. And a somewhat greater minority still make excuses for them. What a shame.

 

And I'm weary of your desperate attempts to wriggle out of your unfair, generalised attack on "the Grouse shooting lot"....if your gonna make outrageous, unsubstantiated claims of ongoing criminality in a particular shooting sport, you should expect, on a shooting forum, to get challenged on it and be prepared to reveal your sources and substantiate your allegations!.......... Not avoid addressing the questions by snivelling about how many postings someone has made and accuse them of semantics!

That said, I've also had my say.....I'm done! 

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Oh, re England, here's Natural England's 2008 statement in the report "A Future for the Hen Harrier in England?" on the impact of hen harrier persecution:

  There is compelling evidence that persecution continues, both during and following the breeding season.  Persecution continues to limit Hen Harrier recovery in England. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by stagboy
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17 minutes ago, stagboy said:

I believe this was based on the famous research conducted at Langholm. As for golden eagles and English moors, you are right, but I think the statement was including eagles as one of three species being adversely impacted by persecution on grouse moors - even though the eagle applies only to Scotland.

The GWCT are currently stating on their website: 

Q: Why are there so few hen harriers on English driven grouse moors?

A: In addition to the reasons above, it has been shown that illegal culling by gamekeepers can restrict hen harrier numbers on some grouse moors.

No denial there about he fact of persecution or its impact.

The GWCT go on to say: "If there are too many harriers on a moor the shoot becomes uneconomic, the gamekeepers lose their jobs, and numbers of ground-nesting birds decline, including ones of conservation concern such as waders. The Joint Raptor Study and subsequent studies at Langholm demonstrated that this situation can really happen and is no exaggeration."

Fair point. That's the clear motive for the current levels of raptor crime on driven grouse moors. So, how do we save driven grouse shooting?

Not by stamping on owls, that's for sure.

In my own view, the Hen Harrier Recovery Project, involving brood management of hen harriers (opposed by the RSPB), so we don't get damaging concentrations, is the best way forward. But if what I have rather rudely called "the grouse lot" keep on trying to deny or obfuscate the fact and importance of criminality, then we won't get there, because the credibility of the shooting side will be so shot, and we will seem so unreasonable and arrogant,  that the politicians will be persuaded to legislate.  

Hence my frustration with some of the "grouse lot". 

 

   

 

I've had many days/morning/afternoons riuned by all sots of birds when been on the grouse (including GE's and Herons, Ravens).

U'd be amazed the impact it can have on a drive (althou can be a great help for walking up) but thats the way it is, and the folk that shoot grouse just accept it as it is a truely wild bird and a day can be affected by many diiferent things from weather to wind (1 treason i'd never pay for a day of driven grouse at market rates even if ii could afford it, just so much can go wrong)

U really are in the hand of the shooting gods. I picked up 1 small day years ago, due to weather and birds the shootng was very focused and bizarely the same guns where always in the 'hot' butts, wouldn't surprise me if 80ish brace where shot by only 2-4 guns and i think a couple of guns didn't get a shot off all day. Keeper tried everything but other things went against him. Even the guns who never had the luck enjoyed they're day and the lucky 1's were grinning like cheshire cats! A day they'll never forget

 

1 of the things i hoped would come out of langholm 2 was how grouse cope with seeing so many HH's all the time if they become more used to them and it becomes possible to drive them again unfortunately it never got that far.

Must admit i did raise the point to them a couple of times they should try driving the birds just to see the impact the HH's have but i think the point was lost on them.

If u actually looked at the data for langholm 2 they were almost on the verge of having the summer count densities of grouse for shooting, but there spring counts were almost identical to similar moors that had shot, so something was eating all the grouse that should off been ur shootable surplus/harvest.

And that was at a time when most HH aren't even on the moor, so they weren't to blame.

To be fair from wot i seen/read the diversonary feeding did work pretty well, which was a slight bonus and 1 off the points of the study hoped to prove.

But they rekon the ammount of dead rats etc they put out was collossal and it also was almost a FT job feeding the bait points, so how vaible in the real world?? Plus would a keper be allowed to get close enough to feed the point??

But last i heard the 'stakeholder' groups still can't agree on any conclusions t the  study and almost 10 million quid in funds (or i should say 1 group won't agree with the rest!!)

 

 

I think ur deluding urself if u only think upland keepers are 'under pressure' and infact for the past 10 or so years most englisjh moors keepers have never had it so good, most have broke records for beat bags and totals 4-6 times in the last 10 years and shooting more and more days.

I would bet some lowland keeprs with high densties of young birds in confined spaces  and many days alrady booked (not like the grouse where it can be the norm to cancel days or reduce bags) if birds not there, thats wot i call pressure.

I even know wot its like runninig a tiny diy shoot and finding  2-6 birds every single day killed and on a bad day 10+ and thats only putting down a few hundred, no pressur eon me at that scale, but i would not want my house dependant on it. For us that was a big % of birds

 

The 1 and only reason there targeting the grouse is because of class envy, no matter how u look at it, it is bloody dear and only the richest can really afford it.

That said many decent moor owners really look after there staff/helpers, plenty will have mid season days for helpers and 2-6 keepers days is not unheard off, i once heard off a moor having 14 trying to get birds off before winter.

So while it is a 'tof's' sport plenty of 'normal' working class lads do get the chance to shoot them, also pay quite decent unlike lowground shoots.

Also the money it brings into lovcal areas is massive, no offence to folk living near some moors but there often ****ty valleys with very little work and most appreciate the extra money.

A lot of areas will really notice the difference this year with little shooting

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27 minutes ago, stagboy said:

Oh, re England, here's Natural England's 2008 statement in the report "A Future for the Hen Harrier in England?" on the impact of hen harrier persecution:

  There is compelling evidence that persecution continues, both during and following the breeding season.  Persecution continues to limit Hen Harrier recovery in England. 

 

 

 

 

 

 Thing is where is the evidence?

HH have never ever really been numerous in Eng anyway even historically, yes been a alot of grouse moors for years, but for quite a few years there grouse was out of fashion/unprofitable so they really wouldn't be being persecuted as wasn't the keepers.

Why is the rspb's own flagship upland nature reserve not full of HH then?? If persecution is the only thing stopping them they should be loads.

Surely there not persecuting them too?? The way the are 'allegedly' with the the Eagle Owls.

If the evidence is so overwhelming why is there NO prosecutions for it???

And again ur back to 08, 10 years ago, study probably previous to that, times/attitudes HAVE changed a lot in the last 10-20 years

If u looked at confirmed police deaths of BoP have cae down massively in that 10-20 year time frame, as i said scotland now in single figures (apart from recently when a wildlife charities own feed station poisioned 30 odd and still have never admitted it to this day, despite offering big rewards for info on who done it??)

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21 minutes ago, scotslad said:

 Thing is where is the evidence?

HH have never ever really been numerous in Eng anyway even historically, yes been a alot of grouse moors for years, but for quite a few years there grouse was out of fashion/unprofitable so they really wouldn't be being persecuted as wasn't the keepers.

Why is the rspb's own flagship upland nature reserve not full of HH then?? If persecution is the only thing stopping them they should be loads.

Surely there not persecuting them too?? The way the are 'allegedly' with the the Eagle Owls.

If the evidence is so overwhelming why is there NO prosecutions for it???

And again ur back to 08, 10 years ago, study probably previous to that, times/attitudes HAVE changed a lot in the last 10-20 years

If u looked at confirmed police deaths of BoP have cae down massively in that 10-20 year time frame, as i said scotland now in single figures (apart from recently when a wildlife charities own feed station poisioned 30 odd and still have never admitted it to this day, despite offering big rewards for info on who done it??)

I have no doubt you're a very knowledgeable chap when it comes to grouse moors etc, and at times you raise some valid and pertinent points, but you spoil it when you constantly make statements you cannot back up with facts. Some may say it doesn't matter, but it does. It matters because when we ( shooters ) start throwing accusations around, without any method of confirming them, it brings us down to the same level as the antis. How can we expect to be taken seriously when we make spurious claims and throwaway statements? 

You ask 'where is the evidence?' whilst making sweeping generalisations about those whom oppose us and their claims against us, totally failing to back up any claims you yourself make regarding a certain charity and 'missing eagle owls' in an earlier post. I find it very frustrating.  Where is the evidence? 

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There is plenty of  anecdotal evidence to suspect NRW/NE are the glove puppet of the RSPB. The NE team responsible for the 2008 HH report consisted of one HH recovery project officer and up to four fieldworkers, With input from an unknown number of HHRG volunteers, the RSPB, volunteers from various licensed raptor groups, raptor study groups etc.....who were these volunteers? Were they impartial? How much data did they contribute to the report? Was the resultant report really impartial? The report was in the name of NE, did they really write it? Or maybe bird protectionists with an anti agenda did?........Not shooting folk I'd be bound?....

Edited by panoma1
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1 hour ago, stagboy said:

 

Probably best to read the report. The sources are quoted and the data laid out in charts.

By the way, I certainly didn't intend to "snivel" about your vast number of  posts; I have admired many of them. Sorry to cause any offence.

Edited by stagboy
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15 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

There is plenty of  anecdotal evidence to suspect NRW/NE are the glove puppet of the RSPB. The NE team responsible for the 2008 HH report consisted of one HH recovery project officer and up to four fieldworkers, With input from an unknown number of HHRG volunteers, the RSPB, volunteers from various licensed raptor groups, raptor study groups etc.....who were these volunteers? Were they impartial? How much data did they contribute to the report? Was the resultant report really impartial? The report was in the name of NE, did they really write it? Or maybe bird protectionists with an anti agenda did?........Not shooting folk I'd be bound?....

I have no idea who the volunteers were nor if they were impartial......have you asked? I have no idea regarding the points you raise in the rest of your post either, but have you asked the relevant bodies, individuals? All relevant and valid questions, but have you asked? I would be delighted to discover that a  'certain charity' was responsible for 'missing eagle owls', and it was Scotslad who made the claim, and that's why I'm asking.....where is the evidence? 

There were a lot of spurious and deliberately misleading claims made during the lead shot debate, and by some very respected 'authorities' and respected people, on the relevant subject, but most of us questioned those claims, and it was just as well, because many of those claims were found to be false, made to further an agenda, and shown to be so. We are no better then them if we make claims which can't be validated. 

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38 minutes ago, Scully said:

I have no idea who the volunteers were nor if they were impartial......have you asked? I have no idea regarding the points you raise in the rest of your post either, but have you asked the relevant bodies, individuals? All relevant and valid questions, but have you asked? I would be delighted to discover that a  'certain charity' was responsible for 'missing eagle owls', and it was Scotslad who made the claim, and that's why I'm asking.....where is the evidence? 

There were a lot of spurious and deliberately misleading claims made during the lead shot debate, and by some very respected 'authorities' and respected people, on the relevant subject, but most of us questioned those claims, and it was just as well, because many of those claims were found to be false, made to further an agenda, and shown to be so. We are no better then them if we make claims which can't be validated. 

My questions (I made no claims) are taken from the content of the published 2008 NE report and are rhetorical, I'm not saying they are, but if NE are prepared to deceive or allow others to deceive the public in a report, it follows that their officials and others that had input into the report, will support their report by lying to me too, so asking the questions would probably not advance any belief in the reports impartiality..........I do not speak without experience of dealing with NRW/NE.

   

 

Edited by panoma1
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19 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

My questions (I made no claims) are taken from the content of the published 2008 NE report and are rhetorical, I'm not saying they are, but if NE are prepared to deceive or allow others to deceive the public in a report, it follows that their officials and others that had input into the report, will support their report by lying to me too, so asking the questions would probably not advance any belief in the reports impartiality..........I do not speak without experience of dealing with NRW/NE.

   

 

Fair enough; I’m not disputing any of the above, but it’s still always worth asking if only to let them know there are people out there who aren’t convinced, but thanks for answering anyhow. However, none of it answers the question I asked of Scotslad to which you responded, regarding a ‘certain charity’ and ‘missing eagle owls’.....where is the evidence? 

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9 hours ago, Scully said:

Fair enough; I’m not disputing any of the above, but it’s still always worth asking if only to let them know there are people out there who aren’t convinced, but thanks for answering anyhow. However, none of it answers the question I asked of Scotslad to which you responded, regarding a ‘certain charity’ and ‘missing eagle owls’.....where is the evidence? 

I don't think I did respond regarding eagle owls? I know a little about the allegation concerning a "certain charity" but although I thought about it, not enough to comment!

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1 hour ago, panoma1 said:

I don't think I did respond regarding eagle owls? I know a little about the allegation concerning a "certain charity" but although I thought about it, not enough to comment!

Ok. So for the sake of accuracy then, you responded regarding 'anecdotal evidence', of another point when I asked 'where is the evidence' of Scotslad; will that do you? 

I doubt I'll get an answer; it would seem there is no evidence. We can't oppose bias with rumour or wishful thinking. 

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2 hours ago, Scully said:

Ok. So for the sake of accuracy then, you responded regarding 'anecdotal evidence', of another point when I asked 'where is the evidence' of Scotslad; will that do you? 

I doubt I'll get an answer; it would seem there is no evidence. We can't oppose bias with rumour or wishful thinking. 

No, for the sake of accuracy, purely by coincidence my post followed yours, I neither quoted you, nor was my post in response to yours, or anyone else's!......It was a stand alone comment on the 2008 NE report on Hen Harriers, thrown into the mix by someone, I made no response, either myself or on behalf of anyone else, on a "certain charity" and "missing eagle owls"

Edited by panoma1
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Apologies i never seen ur post's scully, if someone doesn't re quote them i never bother to open them.

 

Was quite a few years ago now and came from a couple of very good sources, but if the shoe was on the other foot it would have been front page tabliod news and every keeper in the district would have had there doors kicked in.

I have absolutely no reason to doubt them even now an EO is quite an impressive sight and not something u'd mis id, so when there starting to look for a nest and in the same area and then start building in a spot where u can watch them every day and then suddenly missing

I would imagine probably similar sources wot beefy was using for his article too, by the sound of it it is becoming far more common and far more 'overt' in trying to stop EO's nesting

 

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Foresters used to give u free shells to shoot them too until pretty recently too.

 

Althoui have also heard of old school traditonal highland keepers standing on any nest of red grouse they could find too, as they'd be more into the red stags and a grouse getting up shout 'go back go back' can easy spoil a stalk.

Even had it happen to myself once on the Sika, still a very memorable stalk all the same thou..

 

The older generation of keepers could be a funny breed

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3 hours ago, scotslad said:

Apologies i never seen ur post's scully, if someone doesn't re quote them i never bother to open them.

 

Was quite a few years ago now and came from a couple of very good sources, but if the shoe was on the other foot it would have been front page tabliod news and every keeper in the district would have had there doors kicked in.

I have absolutely no reason to doubt them even now an EO is quite an impressive sight and not something u'd mis id, so when there starting to look for a nest and in the same area and then start building in a spot where u can watch them every day and then suddenly missing

I would imagine probably similar sources wot beefy was using for his article too, by the sound of it it is becoming far more common and far more 'overt' in trying to stop EO's nesting

 

I've been following this but nothing i can add.

I am curious why anyone would want to remove eagle owls? Considering how excited people get over big raptors, and yes I've handled eagle owls so i know there big i thought bird folk would be excited about them? Am i being naive? 

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I know i would think and expect the same Mice.

The ony reason they're really is, is that EO are very intolerant of other BoP's have been caught on film raiding HH nests. So they're worried that if EO become more numerous they will scare many HH off, the fact that Buzzards have been doing that to Kestrals for decedes to the point hardly any Kestrals locally now, but they can't have that with their precious HH, as it is their best political/PR weapon to target shooting. I thik i said earlier in this thread 60% of HH chicks fledged of grouse moors this year.

 

For me it all comes back round to Bothams They Forgot about the Birds campign, for some reason they only seem to care about birds that have a political gain in th efight t stop shooting.

Waders almos extinct over much of their previous nest grounds 30-40 years ago- does it involve shooting = when answer is No they just seem to ignore it.

Same with almost every 'prey' species of birds from farmland to garden all in massive declines since the 70's yet u never here owt.

Songbird Survival is quite a good birdy charity that works in the real world.

 

Exact same in Scotland the now with this Mountain Hare report, why is an rspb scientist researching mountain hare numbers in first place??? (tick box for involves blaming shooting esp grouse).

The only real reason is because they can attempt to blame grouse moors for it or atleast tarnish them with a few half truths or blatant lies

 

Same with the LAG stuff previously why is WWT and rsb funding research into concentrations and effects on humans of lead shot in game meat.

 

Some of these 'conservation' charites don't seem to care much about conservation at all unless the species can be used as a political pawn or PR gimick if its not they just don't seem to care

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