What size box section

[Jonty]

Folks, I can make anything out of wood but don't have much experience with metal , hence needing to ask you guys.  I want to make a three tier brewery stand similar to the attached picture - it's a simple design/system so I can use gravity to move the liquid about rather than pumps.  The whole system works by starting with a large volume of water in the top left vessel, that water gradual lu moving through the middle vessel and eventually all (minus loss/wastage) ending up in the bottom right vessel.  My vessels are 100l so the maximum loading would theoretically be 100kg of water, however, my more practical and realistic batch size would be 50l .  Once the top vessel is filled to the desired quantity, no more water is added to the system so if you start with 50l, that is the maximum load for that brew. The kit itself (vessels and burners) probably weighs 15kg.

I'm getting a friend to do the welding and hope to have a welding lesson in the process - nut as far as sizing the box section, I haven't a clue so any advice would be greatly appreciated.  I'd rather not over engineer it too much but do want it to be solid.  

Please note I've borrowed the pic from google so please ignore the dimensions/weights shown on the drawing.

Thanks in advance.

Edited September 4, 2018 by Jonty

[Walker570]

I would have thought 30mill heavy gauge would be adequate.  I would add some cross braces or at least some corner plates. All properly welded of course.

[oldypigeonpopper]

hello, if you look at any Brewery most of the internal structure or large stands to take containers is made of stainless steel, 50mm box section with 5mm stainless plate to put the vessels on bolted or welded should take the weight on the width from your drawing with a cross brace underneath, a decent mig welder with stainless wire and argon gas should be ok for such a project,  or same in mild steel but would need a very good paint to stop rusting, the wheels are easy to bolt on if you weld a holding plate in each corner. 

[demonwolf444]

Jonty -

30mm Box section would be fine.

- Incidentally I see you are in Yorkshire dales....a friend of mine near Northalleton supplies 40mm galvanised box section - this will take care of any rusting issues you have.

You only have to grind off the galv along the edges you would like to weld to and a bit of paint over the welds to stop the welds rusting.

If you are going to be storing it indoors then you needed even paint it. I have used the same 40mm box section to make a number of heavy workbenches in the workshop and its incredibly useful and easy to weld/work with.

The box section he supplies comes in 8FT lengths and often he has a stack of "rejects" which have been damaged in transit and are ever so slightly curved along the length unless you need absolute precision this is almost negligible  - so for any situation where you will be chopping the curve becomes unimportant - he usually lets this stuff go cheap and would provide a low cost steel for your project.

If this is of interest then please PM me and i will pass on his details and let him you you might get in touch.

Hope that helps

James.

[Jonty]

Thank you gents for the feedback 

walker570 - appreciate what yore saying RE proper welds - I'll be working under supervison

 OPP - thanks, I'm happy with it not being stainless as its not commercial and very limited splashing

demon/James - thanks for the heads up, I'm the other side of the dales so it'd probably offset any savings in travel costs etc

 

thanks again all - really appreciate the information.

[ditchman]

2" times 3mm box section...............best to over egg it as who knows what the future might hold....and design / loading change.........

[johnphilip]

I would leave of grinding galvanised  steel , nasty stuff .  If you wanted mild steel to last you could paint with gavafroid  if i have spelt it right , its liquid galvanize  and you can paint over it . Will last for years .

[Jonty]

Thanks for all the info chaps - much appreciated

[Graham M]

5 hours ago, johnphilip said:

I would leave of grinding galvanised  steel , nasty stuff .  If you wanted mild steel to last you could paint with gavafroid  if i have spelt it right , its liquid galvanize  and you can paint over it . Will last for years .

Yes, galvanised steel gives off zinc oxide fumes when welding. Causes metal fume fever and can give you the shakes and cause respiratory problems.  Had to do a bit when I worked on site. Made me feel ill.

We used to us a product called "Dry Galv" to paint over the welds. Don't know if it still exists in that form though.

 

[johnphilip]

8 hours ago, Graham M said:

Yes, galvanised steel gives off zinc oxide fumes when welding. Causes metal fume fever and can give you the shakes and cause respiratory problems.  Had to do a bit when I worked on site. Made me feel ill.

We used to us a product called "Dry Galv" to paint over the welds. Don't know if it still exists in that form though.

 

This is the stuff i was on about , i have done a couple of trailer i built with it , works great if used right.

tools-paint.com/galvafroid-zinc-rich-cold-galvanising-coating-2224-p.asp

[oldypigeonpopper]

20 hours ago, Jonty said:

Thank you gents for the feedback 

walker570 - appreciate what yore saying RE proper welds - I'll be working under supervison

 OPP - thanks, I'm happy with it not being stainless as its not commercial and very limited splashing

demon/James - thanks for the heads up, I'm the other side of the dales so it'd probably offset any savings in travel costs etc

 

thanks again all - really appreciate the information.

hello, hope it all goes well jonty, in that case your better off buying mild steel box section and using that paint john mention as a base coat rather than ready galvanised as so much hassle to grind off areas for welding and fumes, should be easy welding with a MIG,

Edited September 5, 2018 by oldypigeonpopper

[ditchman]

9 hours ago, Graham M said:

Yes, galvanised steel gives off zinc oxide fumes when welding. Causes metal fume fever and can give you the shakes and cause respiratory problems.  Had to do a bit when I worked on site. Made me feel ill.

We used to us a product called "Dry Galv" to paint over the welds. Don't know if it still exists in that form though.

 

think the "blue smoke fumes" are a form of cyanide...............

[Graham M]

 

Quote

 

Metal fume fever is due to the inhalation of certain metals, either as fine dust or most commonly as fumes. Simple metal compounds such as oxides are equally capable of causing it. The effects of particularly toxic compounds, such as nickle carbonyl  , are not considered merely metal fume fever. 

Exposure usually arises through hot metalworking processes, such as smelting and casting of zinc alloys, welding of galvanised metals, brazing, or soldering. If the metal concerned is particularly high-risk, the residue from cold sanding processes may also cause fume fever, even if the dose is lower. It may also be caused by electroplated surfaces or metal-rich anti-corrosion paint, such as cadmium passivated steel or zinc chromate primer on aluminium aircraft parts. Exposure has also been reported in use of lead-free ammunition, by the harder steel core stripping metal from the jacket of the bullet and barrel of the rifle.

The most plausible metabolic source of the symptoms is a dose-dependent release of certain cytokines, an event which occurs by inhaling metal oxide fumes that injure the lung cells. This is not an allergic reaction, though allergic reactions to metal fumes can occur.

 

 

Edited September 5, 2018 by Graham M

[Walker570]

ALL good information.  In short ....NASTY!!!!!!

[oldypigeonpopper]

3 hours ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

hello, hope it all goes well jonty, in that case your better off buying mild steel box section and using that paint john mention as a base coat rather than ready galvanised as so much hassle to grind off areas for welding and fumes, should be easy welding with a MIG,

hello, just to add before elf and safety and mig welders galvanised steel was most done with stick welding, no air extractors just a normal face mask and you got a pint of milk per day, i kid you not!!!!!! who ever thought this would stop the nasty fumes from this form of welding i would not think ever welded.

[ditchman]

in the old days if you were working with lead....it was always advised to drink plenty of milk..............to flush it out ...which was a load of old tosh as lead is a cumlitive poison......

 

i should be dead now as when young i used to keep pellets in my mouth and chew the odd one if i didnt have any chewing gum

[la bala]

Looking at the diagram, if that wheel is 6 inches in diameter then the box is 1 inch x 1inch by x 1/8

[scotslad]

Must admit i'm very surprised by the size of box most seem to be reccommending,  its only to hold 100 odd kg.

Might depend on the dimensions (as u said to ignore the 1's in the daigram) but as long as not massively tall or wide think i'd only have used 1"  box but possibly some flat bar or angle for daignols to give some extra strength.

2" box soon gets heavy, and while it doesn't look like a massive fabrication surprising how many m's of box u'll need.

If i'm making something and using 2" box its generally something that is going to get a lot of abuse and/or needs a lot of strength

[ditchman]

40 minutes ago, scotslad said:

Must admit i'm very surprised by the size of box most seem to be reccommending,  its only to hold 100 odd kg.

Might depend on the dimensions (as u said to ignore the 1's in the daigram) but as long as not massively tall or wide think i'd only have used 1"  box but possibly some flat bar or angle for daignols to give some extra strength.

2" box soon gets heavy, and while it doesn't look like a massive fabrication surprising how many m's of box u'll need.

If i'm making something and using 2" box its generally something that is going to get a lot of abuse and/or needs a lot of strength

i said 2" box...........as if he is like me....things like that tend to get bigger quickly.............and then you end up making the whole thing again..........

 

oh by the way give the supplier a cutting scheduale...i pay sometimes nothing and sometimes 30-50p a cut...(depends who is on the desk)

[la bala]

oh by the way give the supplier a cutting scheduale...i pay sometimes nothing and sometimes 30-50p a cut

Lazy old Bu##er 

[Jonty]

2 hours ago, ditchman said:

i said 2" box...........as if he is like me....things like that tend to get bigger quickly.............and then you end up making the whole thing again..........

 

oh by the way give the supplier a cutting scheduale...i pay sometimes nothing and sometimes 30-50p a cut...(depends who is on the desk)

Top tip on the cutting schedule - thanks.

 

if anything the vessels would be down sized in mk11 - I massively over engineered on the first version as I know I usually end up going bigger and better later on

[scotslad]

I totally understand the idea of going bigger/stronger as often do the same.

But at same time ur only looking to hold 100kg's or so, if u want it to be relatively moveable i'd sit down and measure/calculate just how much box u'll need and then find out the wieght per m/ft and figure out just how heavy ur fabrication will be. ()think somewhere like Franklin steel has online tables for dimensions and wieghts per m)_

Personally i'd be going for something just a bit stronger than needed (as i could see wieght being a factor if to be moved about) and use triangulation/braces to add strength rather than heavier steel

 

I know if i was using 2" box its the sort of thing i'd be expecting to hold quite literally Tonnes of wieght, my saw horse is welded out of 2" angle  and 30-40mmish box(althou 4mm) not an awful lot of steel in it and surprising how heavy/ackward it is too move. And its had some big logs droped on it (occasionally with the digger as to big to move by hamd) and can hold 1/2T+ of timber and still holding strong after years of abuse.

Built my shed extension with 2" box,  for me 2" box is fairly heavy duty steel

 

Ps Mibee i'm to tight but only realy get it cut if too big for my trailer, but i'm guessing u'll have a lot of quite small pieces= lots of cuts (30p's) which will add up.

Also if ur anything like me ur idea/design might change as u start to build, if everythings already cut u don't have that option

Edited September 7, 2018 by scotslad

[Bede]

For something like that I'd be using 40 X 40 X 3.  It doesn't need bracing or gussetting as it's more than solid enough if built as per drawing.  There'll be no flex in the short lengths of box between each cross brace.  If you want it lightweight you could use ERW box at 1.6 - 2mm thick wall.  I'd probably just stick to regular 40 X 40 though.  I've been a fabricator for 24 yrs, by the way. Works Manager nowadays though.

[John_R]

Irrespective of the box size, I would suggest you change the cuts for the second shelf level. 

Where you have the 18 and 20 horizontal pieces, make that one piece and sit the next level on top.

As drawn half the weight of the mash tun is on a weld

 

[scotslad]

Just been looking at some steel sizes for a couple of projects

Just for reference box section 3mm thick is 3.71kg/m for 2" (50x50) drops down to 2.14 for 30x30 or (3.45kg for ur 40x40 which Bede reccomended)

 

just looking at it quickly u have 2x1+m plus 4 at almost 2m (60") so 12 m plus all the smaler cuts so ur almost 48kg's just for the longer sections

 

its amazing how quick the meters and wieght add up when u strat making things