Alleged Russian assassins on TV

[islandgun]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

Turns out the 2 Russian tourists booked 3 separate return tickets (which would explain how they arrived at Gatwick and went home via Heathrow).

Now I don’t know about you lot but when I book a weekend foreign trip, I always book a minimum of 3 separate airport return leg tickets.

Waiting for the tin foil hat brigade to rationalise this 🙄

This is perfectly reasonable and also explains why they booked into a cheap hotel as they had spent all their money on air tickets....simple !...😕

[Hamster]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

Turns out the 2 Russian tourists booked 3 separate return tickets (which would explain how they arrived at Gatwick and went home via Heathrow).

Now I don’t know about you lot but when I book a weekend foreign trip, I always book a minimum of 3 separate airport return leg tickets.

Waiting for the tin foil hat brigade to rationalise this 🙄

I don't know about you but when I go on an international poisoning trip I always wear a disguise. 

Edited September 14, 2018 by Hamster

[islandgun]

23 minutes ago, Hamster said:

I don't know about you but when I go on an international poisoning trip I always wear a disguise. 

They didnt need a disguise, as they knew they would never be caught or brought to justice....Im done

[Mungler]

Is that all that is to be said about 3 return air tickets from 3 different airports? You’re not addressing the issue or the building mass of improbability that they were sight seeing (and that’s leaving aside why book into a hovel east London hotel and blow off St Paul’s / London sight seeing for Salisbury).

The fact that they didn’t do a proper job of it is not a defence not does it defeat all the evidence.

[henry d]

32 minutes ago, Hamster said:

Scant evidence is no evidence, you cannot prosecute people on scant, if there is strong evidence actually linking these two to a poisoning crime then let the government show us. In the absence of actual irrefutable evidence they're just guilty of being Russians in Salisbury. 

That also then works for your views on Iraq and any arguments about countries lining up to blame Russia does it not?

[Rewulf]

12 hours ago, islandgun said:

being gleeful enough to attempt murder and frame another country ? why would Russia expose these two most unconvincing church architecture loving men. to me this is very much a stiff finger from Putin to the rest of the world, simply,  dont  ==== with me because we will get even

Exactly, why ? The idea of the interview was to draw attention away, to explain why they were there, and they did a spectacularly bad job of doing so.
So did Putin get to check the footage before it went out, did he OK it .
Or is RT an independent Russian media organ ? (some might say an impossibility)

12 hours ago, islandgun said:

who would benefit from this, ?  a Russian motive could be "you wrong us we will kill you....eventually" .  have you ever heard of the saying "dont get mad get even"

That could work , if they had actually been successful, unless of course Putin actually sent his worst 2 assassins, who botched it completely, left a trail of evidence, and dumped the chemicals to cause possible mass deaths at a later date ?

 

11 hours ago, KB1 said:

Don't see why so many are hell bent on exonerating the Russians on here, after all, the spy/defector assissination business is nothing new.

Putin's 'KGB' didn't have to make it look like something out of 'Mission Impossible' because they really couldn't give a toss what you or I think.  And, without the inevitable Trial by Media environment that exists, I'm sure our Government (Who need this like a hole in the head) would have handled it differently.

 

PS.  I want so much for one of the conspiracy theories to be correct, because I don't want Abramovich taking his money out of Chelsea FC😢

This throws up an interesting point.
If Putins idea was to A. Eliminate Skripal =dismal failure=GRU men should really have had a bullet and a shallow grave ?
Yet given a TV interview where they bumble through excuses and make it worse .
    B. Show the west he can reach out and 'touch' those who have displeased him = partial success = bad boy rating increases = costly sanctions and possible further western action against him.

But, why didnt we just keep quiet on what happened? No media reports, D notice issued, deprive Putin of the publicity, whilst using private diplomatic channels to let him know we were on to him, then sanction accordingly?

What we actually did, was put the whole thing into the media, virtually INSTANTLY , use the publics perception of Russia to do the rest, and continue for months on fairly shaky evidence that Russia did it because A . Novichok can only be made in Russia, and B . Skripal is an ex Russian spy.
Diplomats and sanctions done, the story goes quiet.
But hang on, ANOTHER bottle of novichok is randomly found, and poisons 2 , killing 1, apparently they have had to bury the ambulances used in both attacks ,as a precaution.More media uproar !

Story goes quiet, then we have the 'kicker evidence' of publishing the 'fake' names and 'evidence' of the 2 GRU assassins in Salisbury.
Each time , massive media coverage, giving the supposed mastermind behind it airtime.
Is this not helping the 'enemy'?

Personally, I think this thread should concentrate on the discussion of the actual facts and counter facts , and not on personal members state of mind.
The slanging matches and personal attacks are getting us no where except a thread lock.
 

[islandgun]

Meanwhile their innocent tour guide remained adamant that the pair were purely sightseeing 

[Hamster]

35 minutes ago, henry d said:

That also then works for your views on Iraq and any arguments about countries lining up to blame Russia does it not?

It would indeed, except there IS evidence aplenty that .... was a deliberate (and illegal) US invasion which had nothing to do with WMD, google General Wesley Clark. 

Now please keep to the thread subject as Mod's don't like us deviating. 🙂

48 minutes ago, islandgun said:

They didnt need a disguise, as they knew they would never be caught or brought to justice....Im done

😂They didn't need a disguise because they thought they wouldn't be caught or brought to justice ? 😏How does that work then, you go to a foreign country with military grade chemicals to kill a couple of people and you presume nothing much will come of it anyway so why bother with trying to hide your tracks ?? Sorry but I'm really struggling with that. 

52 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Is that all that is to be said about 3 return air tickets from 3 different airports? You’re not addressing the issue or the building mass of improbability that they were sight seeing (and that’s leaving aside why book into a hovel east London hotel and blow off St Paul’s / London sight seeing for Salisbury).

The fact that they didn’t do a proper job of it is not a defence not does it defeat all the evidence.

Fair point, admittedly much more needs explaining, I agree they and their story doesn't make logical sense. 

[Gordon R]

The Russians probably picked their most inept operatives and set them loose on a mission with several possible outcomes:-

Successful, at minimal outlay - cheap hotel etc.

If caught - deny they worked for the Government - they were expendable.

If they were later traced, put them on TV, with a deliberately provocative, implausible script, which nobody buys.

Russians sit there laughing at us - whatever the outcome. They have thought this through.

 

The concept of their innocence is laughable.

[Rewulf]

4 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

The Russians probably picked their most inept operatives and set them loose on a mission with several possible outcomes:-

Successful, at minimal outlay - cheap hotel etc.

If caught - deny they worked for the Government - they were expendable.

If they were later traced, put them on TV, with a deliberately provocative, implausible script, which nobody buys.

Russians sit there laughing at us - whatever the outcome. They have thought this through.

 

The concept of their innocence is laughable.

How about this then.
Novichock gets sent over by commercial courier or diplomatic pouch to the UK.

Picked up or delivered to 'clean' Russian agent , a ''sleeper' who resides in or around Salisbury.
The sleeper theory isnt as far fetched as you might think, there are a multitude of interesting MOD installations in the area.

Agent sticks some false plates on, and in the dead of night drives over to Skripals house and uses the novichock.
Personally, any agent worth his salt would have let himself in and used it on Sergei directly somehow.

Agent makes his getaway, and Skripal dies, no collateral, no credible CCTV leads.
Ultimately, its still going to be blamed on Russia because its Skripal and a Russian designed nerve agent.
But if they didnt want that, they could have made it look like a botched robbery ect.

Instead we have a massive dogs dinner of various leads, CCTV and evidence and assumptions, and also a good number of people who dont believe a word of it either.
Believe it or not, Im not a Russian agent, but if I can think of a more sensible way of 'offing' an ex spy, why cant the combined might of Russian intelligence ?

As Ive said before, it looks to me like a poor attempt to mend a broken lie, and that goes for both sides, because both sides are clearly lying.

[KB1]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Personally, I think this thread should concentrate on the discussion of the actual facts and counter facts

It's so subjective though, that it can keep rolling on for ever🙄  

[Rewulf]

Just now, KB1 said:

It's so subjective though, that it can keep rolling on for ever🙄  

Thats not an issue, we do it with other threads, or people get bored with the subject.
That cant happen if it gets locked due to personal insults.

[KB1]

1 minute ago, Rewulf said:

Thats not an issue, we do it with other threads, or people get bored with the subject.
That cant happen if it gets locked due to personal insults.

Can't remember issuing any personal insults......

[oowee]

4 hours ago, Mungler said:

Turns out the 2 Russian tourists booked 3 separate return tickets (which would explain how they arrived at Gatwick and went home via Heathrow).

Now I don’t know about you lot but when I book a weekend foreign trip, I always book a minimum of 3 separate airport return leg tickets.

Waiting for the tin foil hat brigade to rationalise this 🙄

Would be interesting to know the spread dates of the return tickets, and how and where they were paid for. There is a further interview today with the RT journalist doing the interview together with a suggestion that the suspects could be available for interview. All of this must be a godsend to the intelligence services.

[Rewulf]

23 minutes ago, KB1 said:

Can't remember issuing any personal insults......

You havnt , others have done plenty.

[KB1]

4 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

You havnt , others have done plenty.

Phew😰

[Rewulf]

3 minutes ago, oowee said:

Would be interesting to know the spread dates of the return tickets, and how and where they were paid for. There is a further interview today with the RT journalist doing the interview together with a suggestion that the suspects could be available for interview. All of this must be a godsend to the intelligence services.

Yes it would, and its damning evidence that they were up to something if its true.
But doesnt that in itself say something, are they that inept to leave a massive paper trail in and out ?
Bear in mind these are alleged intelligence officers, have used precious little in covering their tracks.
Or was that deliberate ? and if so why ?
During the interview, they dont strike me as being particularly sensible, hardly the stuff of an elite organisation like the GRU.

[grrclark]

3 hours ago, islandgun said:

Meanwhile their innocent tour guide remained adamant that the pair were purely sightseeing 

Gold IG

I find these threads fascinating and always regret when they are locked, although totally understand why they are.

For any students of human behaviour they have it all here.

Some thoughts...

Putin was not personally involved, just some disenfranchised senior GRU bod who was determined to get back at Messr Skirpal.  Russian bods caught with their hands in the till cos they cocked it up a wee bitty.  Some of the history of GRU reprisals are colourful and scary, i do believe they televised (within mother Russia) one ex spy being burnt alive (at least alive briefly) as a demonstration of strength.

Would Putin, the nationalistic hardman that he is say sorry to the International community or would he front it out and deal with it internally?

The style of Putin is very much in line with the power posturing of Trump, Kim, Erdogan, Orban, Salmond, Sturgeon, Farage, Maduro, Chavez, Corbyn, etc, i.e. completely divisive is ok so long as more vote for you than the opposition.

Putin thrives on being the hardman, it is his absolute ethos, so manipulating an international, but largely toothless backlash against Russia is cool as he can puff his chest and push back and his acolytes (of which quite a few seem to be PW regulars) fawn in acquiesence of his indefatigability (to borrow a phrase from another oddly celebrated type by some PW regulars) and of course raise his stock.

Keen and objective followers of Russian politics, and Trumpists, would absolutely identify a pattern of Russian voting sentiment as a result of brand Putin political ideology.

For those who advocate the Internet as being a phenomonal resource for independence would do well to look back at the missile strike on Malaysian Air flight 17 in the Ukraine and the behavioural pattern and distribution of news source articles that followed in the wake of that.  

You can actually plot a timeline of response and objectively assess where news stories came from.

As would be expected the major news agencies carried the syndicated stories then there was a massive reaction, post attribution of initial blame, from tens, if not hundreds, if micro news sources, from Russian, that started to sow discordant alternative ‘facts’ in contradiction of the mainstream news.

Internet search engines, in fact every search engine ever, use complex algorithms to display content, this is by both fedback reputation and sheer volume of aggregated content available to them, due to the volume alone of bot factory output of ‘alternate’ facts these results score highly and prominently and reach a wider audience who are more than content to disseminate.  In so doing this lends weight to the credibility of alternative facts and this adds momentum to those who are keen to share this ‘free thinking’ ideology to their social circle.

 

 

Edited September 14, 2018 by grrclark

[Rewulf]

9 minutes ago, grrclark said:

Putin thrives on being the hardman, it is his absolute ethos, so manipulating an international, but largely toothless backlash against Russia is cool as he can puff his chest and push back and his acolytes (of which quite a few seem to be PW regulars) fawn in acquiesence of his indefatigability (to borrow a phrase from another oddly celebrated type by some PW regulars) and of course raise his stock.

Couldnt agree more, he does seem to revel in the image of him being a youthful if somewhat pint sized , macho man.
He also revels in his image of him being more wise and calm than his western rivals, he believes his intelligence surpasses most world leaders.
Maybe he is the egotistical Dr Evil he is portrayed , maybe hes worse.
But thats not really the issue here, like you quite rightly say, it could be a rogue element within the Russian armed forces.
That makes far more sense than Putin ordering it for whatever reason and the resultant SHTF scenario of being 'found out'
At least that would establish the MOTIVE that is sadly lacking.

So if he is just fronting it out (and making a very bad job of it) what would he achieve in the end ?
Is it really hoping the incompetent assassins are going to talk their way out of the whole world believing it wasnt ordered from the very top ?
They would have been better off never being seen or heard from again, at least then there is an element of mystery in at least some peoples minds.
AS far as some people 'fawning' over Putin, Im not sure where that comes from.
I dont 'like' him any more than I like Theresa May, or comrade Corbyn.

Theres a difference between the people who believe in the official line, and those who dont.
And no, its not the balance of sanity 🤣
Those who believe, WANT to believe its true.
I cant speak for others but I  want to believe our government wouldnt lie to us about Salisbury.
Unfortunately, from what Ive seen and heard, I cant.

[oowee]

22 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Couldnt agree more, he does seem to revel in the image of him being a youthful if somewhat pint sized , macho man.
He also revels in his image of him being more wise and calm than his western rivals, he believes his intelligence surpasses most world leaders.
Maybe he is the egotistical Dr Evil he is portrayed , maybe hes worse.
But thats not really the issue here, like you quite rightly say, it could be a rogue element within the Russian armed forces.
That makes far more sense than Putin ordering it for whatever reason and the resultant SHTF scenario of being 'found out'
At least that would establish the MOTIVE that is sadly lacking.

The Russian culture is very different from ours particularly so the role of the State and the role of a leader(almost divine) and the role of man within that state. In a cultural context the attack all starts to make more sense. No hiding place from power, trying to deliver for the state brings the highest reward, we do whatever is asked for the good of our leader. It's not rogue it's payback and homage to the greater power. A Russia, traditionally and continually oppressed by the West provides a safer haven for failed leadership. 

Look at;

Oligarchs have used there wealth to fund pet projects it's all about payback. 

Steven Seagal as special envoy.

Statement by head of cultural committee captures all with : 'There are two forces that can keep Russia from the abyss the first is called god and the second is Stalin'

Edited September 14, 2018 by oowee

[Rewulf]

4 minutes ago, oowee said:

The Russian culture is very different from ours particularly so the role of the State and the role of a leader(almost divine) and the role of man within that state. In a cultural context the attack all starts to make more sense. No hiding place from power, trying to deliver for the state brings the highest reward, we do whatever is asked for the good of our leader. It's not rogue it's payback and homage to the greater power. A Russia, traditionally and continually oppressed by the West provides a safer haven for failed leadership. 

Look at;

Oligarchs have used there wealth to fund pet projects it's all about payback. 

Steven Seagal as special envoy.

Statement by head of cultural committee captures all with : 'There are two forces that can keep Russia from the abyss the first is called god and the second is Stalin'

Again ,I agree.
But what then when the sanctioned action ends in failure and total buffoonery ?
Payback that rebounds straight back in their face ,and makes them look like fools.
They would have been better off parading the hapless tourists on TV and making them admit to a rogue action, with stolen or lashed up nerve agents.
Then promising to deal with the assassins Russia style, maybe by a televised burning or something.

Why make it so damn complicated !

[pinfireman]

5 hours ago, Rewulf said:

ut, why didnt we just keep quiet on what happened? No media reports, D notice issued, deprive Putin of the publicity, whilst using private diplomatic channels to let him know we were on to him, then sanction accordingly?

So how do you keep something like this quiet? Dozens of  Police, forensics (all in Bio Chemical suits), Service personnel......in a free society, that,s impossible! Maybe in Russia??? With the internet, a D Notice would be impossible. 2019 now, not 1960 !

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

You havnt , others have done plenty.

?

5 hours ago, islandgun said:

Meanwhile their innocent tour guide remained adamant that the pair were purely sightseeing 

:-) Nice one!

[oowee]

5 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Again ,I agree.
But what then when the sanctioned action ends in failure and total buffoonery ?
Payback that rebounds straight back in their face ,and makes them look like fools.
They would have been better off parading the hapless tourists on TV and making them admit to a rogue action, with stolen or lashed up nerve agents.
Then promising to deal with the assassins Russia style, maybe by a televised burning or something.

Why make it so damn complicated !

.

I am laughing every time i see the tourists in action. 

[pinfireman]

3 hours ago, Rewulf said:

How about this then.
Novichock gets sent over by commercial courier or diplomatic pouch to the UK.

Picked up or delivered to 'clean' Russian agent , a ''sleeper' who resides in or around Salisbury.
The sleeper theory isnt as far fetched as you might think, there are a multitude of interesting MOD installations in the area.

Agent sticks some false plates on, and in the dead of night drives over to Skripals house and uses the novichock.
Personally, any agent worth his salt would have let himself in and used it on Sergei directly somehow.

Agent makes his getaway, and Skripal dies, no collateral, no credible CCTV leads.
Ultimately, its still going to be blamed on Russia because its Skripal and a Russian designed nerve agent.
But if they didnt want that, they could have made it look like a botched robbery ect.

Instead we have a massive dogs dinner of various leads, CCTV and evidence and assumptions, and also a good number of people who dont believe a word of it either.
Believe it or not, Im not a Russian agent, but if I can think of a more sensible way of 'offing' an ex spy, why cant the combined might of Russian intelligence ?

As Ive said before, it looks to me like a poor attempt to mend a broken lie, and that goes for both sides, because both sides are clearly lying.

Please quote the "deliberate" lies by Britains side? What would it take for you to blame Russia? 

1 hour ago, grrclark said:

Gold IG

I find these threads fascinating and always regret when they are locked, although totally understand why they are.

For any students of human behaviour they have it all here.

Some thoughts...

Putin was not personally involved, just some disenfranchised senior GRU bod who was determined to get back at Messr Skirpal.  Russian bods caught with their hands in the till cos they cocked it up a wee bitty.  Some of the history of GRU reprisals are colourful and scary, i do believe they televised (within mother Russia) one ex spy being burnt alive (at least alive briefly) as a demonstration of strength.

Would Putin, the nationalistic hardman that he is say sorry to the International community or would he front it out and deal with it internally?

The style of Putin is very much in line with the power posturing of Trump, Kim, Erdogan, Orban, Salmond, Sturgeon, Farage, Maduro, Chavez, Corbyn, etc, i.e. completely divisive is ok so long as more vote for you than the opposition.

Putin thrives on being the hardman, it is his absolute ethos, so manipulating an international, but largely toothless backlash against Russia is cool as he can puff his chest and push back and his acolytes (of which quite a few seem to be PW regulars) fawn in acquiesence of his indefatigability (to borrow a phrase from another oddly celebrated type by some PW regulars) and of course raise his stock.

Keen and objective followers of Russian politics, and Trumpists, would absolutely identify a pattern of Russian voting sentiment as a result of brand Putin political ideology.

For those who advocate the Internet as being a phenomonal resource for independence would do well to look back at the missile strike on Malaysian Air flight 17 in the Ukraine and the behavioural pattern and distribution of news source articles that followed in the wake of that.  

You can actually plot a timeline of response and objectively assess where news stories came from.

As would be expected the major news agencies carried the syndicated stories then there was a massive reaction, post attribution of initial blame, from tens, if not hundreds, if micro news sources, from Russian, that started to sow discordant alternative ‘facts’ in contradiction of the mainstream news.

Internet search engines, in fact every search engine ever, use complex algorithms to display content, this is by both fedback reputation and sheer volume of aggregated content available to them, due to the volume alone of bot factory output of ‘alternate’ facts these results score highly and prominently and reach a wider audience who are more than content to disseminate.  In so doing this lends weight to the credibility of alternative facts and this adds momentum to those who are keen to share this ‘free thinking’ ideology to their social circle.

 

 

Excellent post!

44 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Couldnt agree more, he does seem to revel in the image of him being a youthful if somewhat pint sized , macho man.
He also revels in his image of him being more wise and calm than his western rivals, he believes his intelligence surpasses most world leaders.
Maybe he is the egotistical Dr Evil he is portrayed , maybe hes worse.
But thats not really the issue here, like you quite rightly say, it could be a rogue element within the Russian armed forces.
That makes far more sense than Putin ordering it for whatever reason and the resultant SHTF scenario of being 'found out'
At least that would establish the MOTIVE that is sadly lacking.

So if he is just fronting it out (and making a very bad job of it) what would he achieve in the end ?
Is it really hoping the incompetent assassins are going to talk their way out of the whole world believing it wasnt ordered from the very top ?
They would have been better off never being seen or heard from again, at least then there is an element of mystery in at least some peoples minds.
AS far as some people 'fawning' over Putin, Im not sure where that comes from.
I dont 'like' him any more than I like Theresa May, or comrade Corbyn.

Theres a difference between the people who believe in the official line, and those who dont.
And no, its not the balance of sanity 🤣
Those who believe, WANT to believe its true.
I cant speak for others but I  want to believe our government wouldnt lie to us about Salisbury.
Unfortunately, from what Ive seen and heard, I cant.

What have you "seen & heard" that makes you disbelieve?

[pinfireman]

13 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Again ,I agree.
But what then when the sanctioned action ends in failure and total buffoonery ?
Payback that rebounds straight back in their face ,and makes them look like fools.
They would have been better off parading the hapless tourists on TV and making them admit to a rogue action, with stolen or lashed up nerve agents.
Then promising to deal with the assassins Russia style, maybe by a televised burning or something.

Why make it so damn complicated !

Their politics over the last century is what makes it so complicated.