Alleged Russian assassins on TV

[Rewulf]

47 minutes ago, Mungler said:

 

I do make the point that the North Korea example (above) is a comparable thought process to when assessing Salisbury and that’s why you ducked it. 

Um, OK then, so the  (debunked by Gordons link) story of NKs old leader scoring 5 holes in one (often quoted as a hole in one on every shot) is comparable to Salisbury, and thats  a comparable thought process?
And we were supposed to work that out, so WE are the ones with mental issues ?

But then you say you would be happy to live in a totalitarian country, as long as your life was cushy ?
But Iran, NK and Russia are full of bad people ?

Im lost for words really.

[Mungler]

32 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Um, OK then, so the  (debunked by Gordons link) story of NKs old leader scoring 5 holes in one (often quoted as a hole in one on every shot) is comparable to Salisbury, and thats  a comparable thought process?
And we were supposed to work that out, so WE are the ones with mental issues ?

But then you say you would be happy to live in a totalitarian country, as long as your life was cushy ?
But Iran, NK and Russia are full of bad people ?

Im lost for words really.

 

Replace golf hole in one with moon landing or any one of these https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/northkorea/8292848/The-Incredible-Kim-Jong-il-and-his-Amazing-Achievements.html . The process of "weighing it all up" is the same.

I never said Iran, Russia and NK was full of bad people - where did you get that from?

On the contrary those countries are made up of people who like us focus with what's in front of them and get on with it, but of course they have to keep their heads down for fear of losing them because they don't have democratic rule, the right to a fair trial or a free press etc.

[Hamster]

3 hours ago, Mungler said:

If looking at Salisbury you still prefer your view that it’s all a big UK government conspiracy against Russia then you should recognise the natural bias that exists within you. My bias which I admit is that my default setting is to prefer the evidence of a democracy that is open to scrutiny, has a system where there is an opposition party and a free press (the polar opposite of Russia).

 

The problem is that the evidence proves this "Democracy" is not open to criticism, this is why alternative mediums like Wikileaks and social media outlets such as FB and Twitter (I've never been a member there either) are closely monitored and groups and individuals not seen as towing the official line are temporarily removed, excluded or severely restricted in what they're allowed to say. If the West truly knows and feels it is in the right why bother censoring ? Find out who you're not allowed to criticise to know who rules over you is the saying. This is happening here in the free West, not Saudi Arabia or even Iran. 

If you know anything about me (via my FB posts) you will know that I abhor ALL innocent deaths and wars, for someone who wrote this, you are not quite so well qualified to questions others "bias".  : 

"WMD? No one cares. The only shame is the hash up of the regime change that happened after the event. The actual invading and bombing bit went pretty well."

It's always about selective outrage, people get killed in France half of FB changes their cover pic to the French flag (nothing wrong with that), 200 kids get gunned down in Pakistan by the same terrorist organ and no sign of flags anywhere ! "Terror" in Europe is talked about for days on end (quite rightly) but "terror" in the middle east is often simply written off as collateral damage. 

 

[Scully]

4 minutes ago, Hamster said:

The problem is that the evidence proves this "Democracy" is not open to criticism, this is why alternative mediums like Wikileaks and social media outlets such as FB and Twitter (I've never been a member there either) are closely monitored and groups and individuals not seen as towing the official line are temporarily removed, excluded or severely restricted in what they're allowed to say. If the West truly knows and feels it is in the right why bother censoring ? Find out who you're not allowed to criticise to know who rules over you is the saying. This is happening here in the free West, not Saudi Arabia or even Iran. 

If you know anything about me (via my FB posts) you will know that I abhor ALL innocent deaths and wars, for someone who wrote this, you are not quite so well qualified to questions others "bias".  : 

"WMD? No one cares. The only shame is the hash up of the regime change that happened after the event. The actual invading and bombing bit went pretty well."

It's always about selective outrage, people get killed in France half of FB changes their cover pic to the French flag (nothing wrong with that), 200 kids get gunned down in Pakistan by the same terrorist organ and no sign of flags anywhere ! "Terror" in Europe is talked about for days on end (quite rightly) but "terror" in the middle east is often simply written off as collateral damage. 

 

•  

You’re inferring that people care more about European atrocities than ME atrocities. To an extent you may be right,  but possibky because there doesn’t seem to be any end to the latter. It seems there is always one tribal warlord looking for an excuse to obliterate another.  

 But again, changing your profile page to a nations flag is nothing; it doesn’t mean you care any more than the effort it takes to do it. It’s meaningless. 

[Rewulf]

30 minutes ago, Mungler said:

 

Replace golf hole in one with moon landing or any one of these https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/northkorea/8292848/The-Incredible-Kim-Jong-il-and-his-Amazing-Achievements.html . The process of "weighing it all up" is the same.
Is it? I couldnt give a monkeys whether he scored a hole in one or anything else about him.
NK is a non story, that from time to time dominates the press, and conjures up another Dr Evil style villain for  us all to hate.
Utter complete B.S.

I never said Iran, Russia and NK was full of bad people - where did you get that from?
Perhaps you didnt , I took the inference.

On the contrary those countries are made up of people who like us focus with what's in front of them and get on with it, but of course they have to keep their heads down for fear of losing them because they don't have democratic rule, the right to a fair trial or a free press etc.

Do they ? So they are the sheeple ?
And like some U.S. appointed South American despot, they 'disappear people in their thousands ?
The army and security services, presumably made up of the population, are complicit in the maintenance  of this state prison, with the all seeing eye of supreme leader, ready to have anyone who opposes them 'liquidated'
Im not saying for one minute that they have as good a life as ours in the UK , but do you seriously believe what you have written above to be a true representation?
There is no iron curtain these days, no Berlin wall, and Im pretty sure you can escape Iran if you choose, so why dont all these oppressed people come over and claim asylum ?
I hear the EU will be hiring again soon.

[Mungler]

Interestingly there's an Iranian business owner round the corner from where I work and who pops in regularly; he has to update his status and report in with the Iranian state every 6 months. If he fails to do so or fails return when requested his family (who have stood surety for his return) will forfeit everything to the state.

North Korea? There a long list of people who get shot / captured trying to leave that Country and regime and those that do escape do so with nothing, but they still try and want to get out.

Russia, under the current constitution Russians are free to leave, but that is controlled and manipulated by the state / Putin with travel bans. Russia is not in the EU so query freedom of any wider movement.

China.... well you get the picture.

So, they are all glued in to some extent.

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, Mungler said:

Interestingly there's an Iranian business owner round the corner from where I work and who pops in regularly; he has to update his status and report in with the Iranian state every 6 months. If he fails to do so or fails return when requested his family (who have stood surety for his return) will forfeit everything to the state.

North Korea? There a long list of people who get shot / captured trying to leave that Country and regime and those that do escape do so with nothing, but they still try and want to get out.

Russia, under the current constitution Russians are free to leave, but that is controlled and manipulated by the state / Putin with travel bans. Russia is not in the EU so query freedom of any wider movement.

China.... well you get the picture.

So, they are all glued in to some extent.

You give one example of 'a bloke you know' the rest you have got from media and hearsay.

I know plenty of Iranians who fled the country after the revolution, these days they come and go back to their old country with no issues whatsoever.

Do you seriously believe all those Russian holiday makers, who devastate the all you can eat buffet in foreign hotels, have to ask permission to leave Russia ?

I live in a city with a massive Chinese student population, I suppose their families are being held at gunpoint till they get back home ?

You believe NK is just a massive prison, with starving inmates who worship their god-leader because your telly told you so, THATS being glued in, not being able to see the level of your own manipulation.

[12gauge82]

3 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

You give one example of 'a bloke you know' the rest you have got from media and hearsay.

I know plenty of Iranians who fled the country after the revolution, these days they come and go back to their old country with no issues whatsoever.

Do you seriously believe all those Russian holiday makers, who devastate the all you can eat buffet in foreign hotels, have to ask permission to leave Russia ?

I live in a city with a massive Chinese student population, I suppose their families are being held at gunpoint till they get back home ?

You believe NK is just a massive prison, with starving inmates who worship their god-leader because your telly told you so, THATS being glued in, not being able to see the level of your own manipulation.

I agree with most of your above, but N Korea is another kettle of fish, read a book by Yeonmi Park, she was a defecter and I think it sums N Korea up well, don't forget, it was Starlin who inserted the current dictatorship and taught them how to make the people love them.

[Hamster]

3 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Do they ? So they are the sheeple ?
And like some U.S. appointed South American despot, they 'disappear people in their thousands ?
The army and security services, presumably made up of the population, are complicit in the maintenance  of this state prison, with the all seeing eye of supreme leader, ready to have anyone who opposes them 'liquidated'
Im not saying for one minute that they have as good a life as ours in the UK , but do you seriously believe what you have written above to be a true representation?
There is no iron curtain these days, no Berlin wall, and Im pretty sure you can escape Iran if you choose, so why dont all these oppressed people come over and claim asylum ?
I hear the EU will be hiring again soon.

My wife goes back every year, myself less often as it gets expensive with flights and the inevitable suitcase full of presents, my father in law who is retired Iranian navy has been here and back a dozen times as did his wife before her sad passing, their daughter went to uni here (£20k plus expenses per annum minimum which this economy benefitted from) and along with her husband whom she met here both went back, the husband is now doing rather poorly due to the company he worked with no longer being allowed to do business with Turkey because of US sanctions ! My retired colonel father lived in the US for 2 years and trained with the American army in the mid 60's at the end of which he along with others were asked to stay but most didn't as they preferred life under the Shah. The planes coming in and out of Iran are full of locals who chose to go back despite the terrible economy and of course the harsh government, thousands of tourists go to Iran daily too and they almost unfailingly have a fantastic time and speak of their surprise that the place is nothing like it's portrayed. I suspect NK is at least a little similar. 

What we're told and what is reality are too often two different things. 

[12gauge82]

2 minutes ago, Hamster said:

My wife goes back every year, myself less often as it gets expensive with flights and the inevitable suitcase full of presents, my father in law who is retired Iranian navy has been here and back a dozen times as did his wife before her sad passing, their daughter went to uni here (£20k plus expenses per annum minimum which this economy benefitted from) and along with her husband whom she met here both went back, the husband is now doing rather poorly due to the company he worked with no longer being allowed to do business with Turkey because of US sanctions ! My retired colonel father lived in the US for 2 years and trained with the American army in the mid 60's at the end of which he along with others were asked to stay but most didn't as they preferred life under the Shah. The planes coming in and out of Iran are full of locals who chose to go back despite the terrible economy and of course the harsh government, thousands of tourists go to Iran daily too and they almost unfailingly have a fantastic time and speak of their surprise that the place is nothing like it's portrayed. I suspect NK is at least a little similar. 

What we're told and what is reality are too often two different things. 

Again I have no reason to doubt anything you say above, except N Korea, I'm sure that soldier shot on film risking his life to defect would disagree with you.

[Hamster]

1 minute ago, 12gauge82 said:

Again I have no reason to doubt anything you say above, except N Korea, I'm sure that soldier shot on film risking his life to defect would disagree with you.

I am certain the stories of people trying to escape NK are not fake, can't be that nice a place to live in, my real point though is that too often we make these places hell to bear with interference and sanctions. This makes them unbearable for some who seek refuge in the West which in turn winds the local people up but the governments of the world have too much vested interest in wars and conflicts to care about our feelings. 

[Mungler]

I know you can't trust everything you read on the 'tinternet (unless it comes from Russia Today eh?) but what do we make of this:

http://www.iranhrdc.org/english/news/features/3428-freedom-of-movement.html

I would add that the "bloke you know" example is something which I believe 100% having seen the primary source of information being the Iranian state documentation that the bloke down the road has to fill out and submit every 6 months.

I holiday there is not the same.

[Rewulf]

24 minutes ago, Mungler said:

I know you can't trust everything you read on the 'tinternet (unless it comes from Russia Today eh?) but what do we make of this:

http://www.iranhrdc.org/english/news/features/3428-freedom-of-movement.html

 

Youre right there , your link for the IHRDC being just one example, based in Connecticut US ,and funded by the US state department and Canadian government.
Completely impartial I presume ?

[Mungler]

Actually if you have a look at that Webby it’s all rather transparent about who they are, what they do, who they will / won’t accept funding from.

They publish their accounts (The Form 990 is far far more comprehensive than anything filed in the uk at companies house and lists all their funding - the detail is incredible). 

I think you’ll have to do a lot better. 

You’d have scored better if you tried to discredit the content of that website. Have another go.

[Gordon R]

Mungler - advantage! Over to the conspiracy element for rebuttal.

[Rewulf]

4 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Mungler - advantage! Over to the conspiracy element for rebuttal.

Not a problem Gordon.

 

22 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Actually if you have a look at that Webby it’s all rather transparent about who they are, what they do, who they will / won’t accept funding from.

They publish their accounts (The Form 990 is far far more comprehensive than anything filed in the uk at companies house and lists all their funding - the detail is incredible). 

I think you’ll have to do a lot better. 

You’d have scored better if you tried to discredit the content of that website. Have another go.

Financials

'IHRDC welcomes support from governments, non-governmental organizations, and private persons. It does not accept any funding whatsoever that is tied to a particular political party or faction, or which requires support for a particular governmental policy, or which otherwise compromises IHRDC's independence in the conduct of its mission'

That's why in its returns for 2013 it lists 563,000 dollars in ' grants' from the US government, and 45,000 dollars from other donations.

That's it , 90 per cent of its revenue in 2013 came from the US government, completely unbiased and impartial ?

And no , I'm not going to debunk anything it professes on its website, it's pointless, because most of it is un checkable, but let's be honest, it's not unbiased is it, given its main donor ?

[Mungler]

The Uk government pays £40m a year to Oxfam and more to the Red Cross (but neither UK charity voluntarily publishes the level of detail contained in those 990s.

If they’re US partisan stooges there not doing the best job of hiding the dark hand that is guiding them 😀

[Gordon R]

I think that is game, set and match. Ref - stop the fight - he's had enough.

[Rewulf]

11 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

I think that is game, set and match. Ref - stop the fight - he's had enough.

I think it's time we got back on topic.

 

[Gordon R]

I agree. We have all reached the same conclusion that the Russians did it, as there is evidence to support this. Whereas there is no evidence whatsoever that another country did it.

[Rewulf]

8 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

I agree. We have all reached the same conclusion that the Russians did it, as there is evidence to support this. Whereas there is no evidence whatsoever that another country did it.

They are using rat poison on Russian swimsuit models now apparently, will that made man Putin never stop 🤣

 

Vladimir Putin tried to kill me with RAT POISON in Salisbury restaurant, claims terrified Russian model

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7291372/anna-shapiro-salisbury-poisoning-vladmir-putin/

[Retsdon]

On 18/09/2018 at 02:27, Gordon R said:

I despair that some have a very low opinion of the British justice system, cast doubt on whether the Police ever tell the truth, think all witnesses lie, think briefs lie etc.

There are people who lie, in any walk of life, but some are happy to believe the worst in all these people, but will happily believe an outrageous conspiracy at the drop of a hat. When it comes to conspiracy, none of the people peddling the various theories ever lie. In contrast to all other walks of life, they are dead straight.

In the trade we call them nutters.

 

It's sweet that you like the world in black and white with no nasty, confusing grey areas.in it. 

[Hamster]

7 hours ago, Gordon R said:

I agree. We have all reached the same conclusion that the Russians did it, as there is evidence to support this. Whereas there is no evidence whatsoever that another country did it.

I put that in the same category as the Russian lady who thinks she's a model. 😂

Edited September 19, 2018 by Hamster

[Gordon R]

Quote

It's sweet that you like the world in black and white with no nasty, confusing grey areas.in it. 

Possibly true, unlike yourself who professes to be a Brexiteer, yet makes posts which are "Remain". I understand your confusion.

[oowee]

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2018/09/20/skripal-suspects-confirmed-gru-operatives-prior-european-operations-disclosed/