Jump to content

Sbs help before I give up and sell it


Doitwithstyle
 Share

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

I do have one multi choked gun with a full set of tubes.  I'm not actually sure what is in the gun at present other than that they are 1/2 or more open than 1/2.  It doen't worry me and I have never changed them and haven't looked since I bought the gun (second hand).  I have never used either 3/4 or full tubes.  I have no need for them in what I do (I don't get the opportunity for 'super high' wild birds, and I don't wildfowl).

I have in the past patterned (properly at 40 yards with a 30" circle drawn afterwards) some of my guns with different cartridges (I only ever shoot fibre) and they behaved much as expected from physical measurement of constriction (using a proper internal bore micrometer, not a muzzle stopper type gauge).  For me - the whole issue is way down the list of things needed to shoot well.  I know that if I put the pattern in the right place my old and openish bored s/s (and actually o/u) guns will break clays well, or cleanly kill game at the ranges at which I shoot.

The real key is in putting the pattern (tight or open) in the right place - and for that a coach and a fitter are the way forward.  Until you can do that, thoughts about choke are just a distraction you can do without.

Once you can put the pattern in the right place well and consistently well - there may be some small gains to be had from fiddling with chokes.

Of course for some types of shooting (super high game, wildfowl etc.) choke and more specialist cartridges are needed, but getting the pattern in the right place still has to come first - and I think that is what was causing the original poster his problem, not choke (or lack of it).

No doubt you have read the only reason why I mentioned the 'C' word. We know that pattern kills and equally understand what is meant by that. Patenetly, putting it in the right place is essential. I have to say that I'm envious of the highlighted sentence. Previously, I would have agreed with you but am now finding that with the cartridges which I wish to use It is a struggle to find a brand which does as you describe. Here we differ a bit as for my needs 3/4 is pretty much essential.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 75
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

26 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

This is the key. Any shotgun improves if it fits you but with a sxs it is even more important. All this business of seeing the rib etc is in my view baloney because I never ecer see either when I shoot.  I am concentrating on where the bird is and maintaining my swing accordingly. Aim a shotgun like a rifle and you will miss almost every time in my view.

+1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, wymberley said:

I have to say that I'm envious of the highlighted sentence.

It was a long time ago - and I used many sheets of opened out brown paper (chicken food) sacks on a 60" square board!

I patterned with 1 oz fibre No 6 cartridges (from memory Eley Impax, SMI mini (not 100 % sure now these were fibre), William Powell 'Super Velocity' (made by Hull Cartridge).  It was done from pre fouled barrels at a measured 40 yards on 3 guns, a Darne V21 nominally 3/8 and 5/8 choke from measurement, a William Powell sidelock nominally IC and 1/4 and a T. Pagewood hammer gun I no longer have.  All the guns would have been made in the 'fibre wad' era.  Measurements were made beforehand of the 'constriction' of the choke using a 'Chubbs Multiguage'.  The 30" circle was drawn by eye around the densest part of the pattern and a count made and and expressed as a % of the nominal total of No 6 pellets in 1 oz.

It took hours - and even with no wind - those huge sheets were hard to manage!  All results were within the range of the nominal choke 'window' expected (e.g 1/4 choke patterned tighter than a nominal IC, but more open than a nominal 1/2 - which I felt was within the margin of error.  I cannot recommend it as it is very time consuming and taught me to 'trust the measurement'.  At the time - a very good friend and excellent shot hoped that I had learned at least one thing ....... that lesson being that the time would have been much better spent on practice not faffing about with paper sheets.

I think he was right!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, mudpatten said:

It might be worth remembering that the lighter sbs was intended for use with a 1 ounce - 28 gm cartridge. Using cartridges of as little extra as 30 or 32 gms will significantly increase the felt recoil which will make your second shot even more likely to be off target.

If the gun fits you perfectly and is well balanced (very important ) the recoil is not really noticed. I shoot an AYA 3" No.2 and even with 50g Tungsten Matrix the recoil is perfectly acceptable.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You`re dead right but patently the original posters gun does not fit him.

Out of curiosity, how much does the AYA 3" no 2 weigh? My vague recollection is that it`s closer to 8 pounds than 7 which does rather help with the absorption of recoil, in addition to which, you probably won`t be firing 3" cartridges quite as frequently as when one is driven bird or pigeon shooting. The 3" No.2 is very nicely balanced and has more "life" in it than the more frequently encountered 3" No.3. Do you mind if I ask where you obtained it from. As far as I recal only a handful were ever imported to the U.K. through John Forsey`s in Kent in the late 1980`s - unless anyone knows any different?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 19/09/2018 at 18:10, motty said:

I really don't understand why folk would want to have chokes bored out.

To tight a pattern at closer ranges make the difference between a hit and a miss .

It is also fair to point out that a mono wad cartridge can have the effect of increasing the precieved choke over that of a fiber wad

  This may come a  a shock to some but you can shoot very well with little or no choke .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Gunman said:

To tight a pattern at closer ranges make the difference between a hit and a miss .

It is also fair to point out that a mono wad cartridge can have the effect of increasing the precieved choke over that of a fiber wad

  This may come a  a shock to some but you can shoot very well with little or no choke .

We're going 'off piste' a tad here, but I suppose it is relevant to a degree. I've tried various 28g of 7s to get the pattern density I would like and have noted that the majority have c350 pellets so let's stay with that figure. The clock stops when the first pellet in a velocity check breaks the tape so that's the figure that the manufacturer will boast about. Unfortunately, at this point the pattern is somewhat thin so one might have to wait until more arrive. Naturally, these will therefore be a little slower and have less energy. If we go with the recognised energy requirement to kill a pigeon and have a look at the Eley energy levels in their diary, then combining thes two elements it will be seen that we're talking about a maximum range of some 45 yards. Keeping one choke more open to cater for closer shots, what would the choke requirement be to take advantage of the maximum range for the 7s' energy if we define that distance (the maximum range) as detailed by Gough Thomas?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gun fit more important than any choke open or tight chokes   My aya no3 fits me perfect with pistol grip  beaver tail fore end and double triggers but it took me some time when I first bought it to get used to the sight picture but I stuck at it and I’m glad I did it’s the first shotgun outa cabinet semi auto gathers dust now lol One thing I do find sitting in duck/pigeon hide its easier to load than a o/u or semi everyone give u advice mine would be Gunfit all the way mate it’s half the battle Chokes are important but if you can’t mount the gun right and shoot in the general direction of the game then doesn’t matter if you had Solid gold chokes screwed in 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, mudpatten said:

You`re dead right but patently the original posters gun does not fit him.

Out of curiosity, how much does the AYA 3" no 2 weigh? My vague recollection is that it`s closer to 8 pounds than 7 which does rather help with the absorption of recoil, in addition to which, you probably won`t be firing 3" cartridges quite as frequently as when one is driven bird or pigeon shooting. The 3" No.2 is very nicely balanced and has more "life" in it than the more frequently encountered 3" No.3. Do you mind if I ask where you obtained it from. As far as I recal only a handful were ever imported to the U.K. through John Forsey`s in Kent in the late 1980`s - unless anyone knows any different?

It is under 7ib something around 6ib 12oz, it weighs very little more than my standard No.2. I saw one for sale about 20 years ago and missed it and had to wait until spring last year to find another one, I think there was only 12 that came into the country ( I may be wrong) I love the fact that it is a light weight game gun that will handle anything I chose to put in it. It will happily fire JK6 T5s All day long and at the end you do not feel like you were in a car crash. Oh and choke wise it is 1/2 in both barrels.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you for that information. A friend of mine bought one new from Forseys and I seem to recall that some 20 were imported. He wanted to sell it quite a few years ago when he packed up shooting due to old age. He was asking a fair price but it was more than I could afford at the time. Now I`ve got the money, I can`t find one!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, mudpatten said:

Thank you for that information. A friend of mine bought one new from Forseys and I seem to recall that some 20 were imported. He wanted to sell it quite a few years ago when he packed up shooting due to old age. He was asking a fair price but it was more than I could afford at the time. Now I`ve got the money, I can`t find one!

They are a very nice 3" to have and now I want another one, but another 20 year wait may be too long for me!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Forseys (which was Gentrys then) imported twelve 3" No. 2s as I understand it. When I plucked up the money and cash to enquire they had all been sold. However, they had a chap out in Spain and after some phone calls he brought one back for me. Whether any more came in after that I do not know but A.S.I might help. A lovely gun and I only sold it as I was in love with a Mannlicher Stutzen Luxus.......the old story.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry but have to say, go and see an Instructor, preferably one who comes recommended.  You can spend hours and a fortune on buying bits to stick on etc., BUT if you are not holding the gun correctly, or it does not fit, HOW will you know  ?  I have been shooting for over 55 years, I have a S x S, which was fitted by the makers in the 1970's. This was after 2 attempts by a local gunsmith and the stock kept 'springing' back, causing me to shoot a bit like yourself, with it.  The stock fitter at the makers, had me shoot 2 cartridges through my gun at a pattern plate. I then repeated the exercise with their 'try gun' (suitably adjusted). That was it. 2 weeks later my gun was ready for collection, job done. I can honestly say that I have NEVER shot so well with any gun that I have ever owned, either before or after, except on clays.  I could not hit clays with it to save my life.  My average on game with that gun, throughout my shooting career, has been around 2 for 1 (shots/birds and YES I did count them).

Due to ill health and lack of opportunity, the gun has resided in my cabinet for the past 2 years. I have been using an O/U on clays and also my 'new' toy, a 20 bore O/U.  Last Saturday I was shooting Partridge so decided to give my old faithful an outing. When using an old English gun, away from home, it does pay to have a 'back up gun'. That being my newly acquired 20 bore. After the first 2 drives (er....20 for 2), I decided that enough was enough, either change guns or sack the bloody loader  !  (I could see the smirks). Thankfully we went back to base for nibbles and the 20 bore emerged. I had only shot it twice on clays, but did not do too badly.  Suffice it to say that I went on to fire a further 36 shots for 17. (THAT shut the Loader up AND he had 2 guns to clean !).  So, we can ALL have off days, but thankfully, I had enough experience to turn it around. Problem being, I have used O/U's and a semi auto on nothing but clays for 2 years, the S x S just felt totally alien to me and I could not get that 'lead picture' right.  Must be an age thing  ?   :hmm:

PS

Do I need to resign from the S x S Club  ??     :bye2:

Edited by Westley
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Westley said:

I could not get that 'lead picture' right.

Interesting post; I don't have a 'lead picture' as when shooting my s/s I don't really see the gun, sight or rib at all.  I just see the target.  When the target is a 'going away' with very little apparent movement ........ I do sometimes find the gun becoming visible ...... the result often being a 'miss'.

I do find when I use an o/u I'm much more likely to see the gun ...... and I don't shoot as well as a result.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Westley said:

Sorry but have to say, go and see an Instructor, preferably one who comes recommended.  You can spend hours and a fortune on buying bits to stick on etc., BUT if you are not holding the gun correctly, or it does not fit, HOW will you know  ?  I have been shooting for over 55 years, I have a S x S, which was fitted by the makers in the 1970's. This was after 2 attempts by a local gunsmith and the stock kept 'springing' back, causing me to shoot a bit like yourself, with it.  The stock fitter at the makers, had me shoot 2 cartridges through my gun at a pattern plate. I then repeated the exercise with their 'try gun' (suitably adjusted). That was it. 2 weeks later my gun was ready for collection, job done. I can honestly say that I have NEVER shot so well with any gun that I have ever owned, either before or after, except on clays.  I could not hit clays with it to save my life.  My average on game with that gun, throughout my shooting career, has been around 2 for 1 (shots/birds and YES I did count them).

Due to ill health and lack of opportunity, the gun has resided in my cabinet for the past 2 years. I have been using an O/U on clays and also my 'new' toy, a 20 bore O/U.  Last Saturday I was shooting Partridge so decided to give my old faithful an outing. When using an old English gun, away from home, it does pay to have a 'back up gun'. That being my newly acquired 20 bore. After the first 2 drives (er....20 for 2), I decided that enough was enough, either change guns or sack the bloody loader  !  (I could see the smirks). Thankfully we went back to base for nibbles and the 20 bore emerged. I had only shot it twice on clays, but did not do too badly.  Suffice it to say that I went on to fire a further 36 shots for 17. (THAT shut the Loader up AND he had 2 guns to clean !).  So, we can ALL have off days, but thankfully, I had enough experience to turn it around. Problem being, I have used O/U's and a semi auto on nothing but clays for 2 years, the S x S just felt totally alien to me and I could not get that 'lead picture' right.  Must be an age thing  ?   :hmm:

PS

Do I need to resign from the S x S Club  ??     :bye2:

With you all the way but I some times believe we lack 'INSTINCT' on some days. Think of that woodcock flitting across a woodland ride, no warning, silent as a ghost, the gun movement is a blurr and the bird folds, you have absolutely no memory about aiming and such, pure INSTINCT.   Used to do a fair bit in handgun training where 1 second exposure targets appeared anywhere in the line and needed a double tap. It was amzing how well you could shoot when your brain didn't get too involved.

Edited by Walker570
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

With you all the way but I some times believe we lack 'INSTINCT' on some days. Think of that woodcock flitting across a woodland ride, no warning, silent as a ghost, the gun movement is a blurr and the bird folds, you have absolutely no memory about aiming and such, pure INSTINCT.   Used to do a fair bit in handgun training where 1 second exposure targets appeared anywhere in the line and needed a double tap. It was amzing how well you could shoot when your brain didn't get too involved.

:good:

Ain't that a fact!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

Interesting post; I don't have a 'lead picture' as when shooting my s/s I don't really see the gun, sight or rib at all.  I just see the target.  When the target is a 'going away' with very little apparent movement ........ I do sometimes find the gun becoming visible ...... the result often being a 'miss'.

I do find when I use an o/u I'm much more likely to see the gun ...... and I don't shoot as well as a result.

Same here, if I see the barrels I have missed. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Walker570 said:

With you all the way but I some times believe we lack 'INSTINCT' on some days. Think of that woodcock flitting across a woodland ride, no warning, silent as a ghost, the gun movement is a blurr and the bird folds, you have absolutely no memory about aiming and such, pure INSTINCT.   Used to do a fair bit in handgun training where 1 second exposure targets appeared anywhere in the line and needed a double tap. It was amzing how well you could shoot when your brain didn't get too involved.

i seem to miss more when i have too much time to think,i've always had more luck with snap shots👍

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Westley, Look here old chap,I suggest that the next time your insolent cur of a loader gets above his station and attempts to talk to you, knock him down and give him a damn good thrashing with a stick, and only pay him half a guinea. You must make every effort to stamp out such familiarity from the lower orders. You`ll be talking to the beaters next!! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...