Kofs.

[wymberley]

15 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

So please tell .When the gun doesnt fit and slaps the face . But hits the target and you dont feel like your having to alter the head or reach etc .which bit of the fit is wrong ? 

Im genuinely  interested as im keen to learn .

Could you describe the elements that are incorrect .please .as I could have missed something on my new gun .

Because of the complexities involved that is difficult enough for a competent coach/fitter to do when face to face. Consequently, it's downright impossible for however well meaning an amateur is, to do it from several hundred miles away over t'net. As already suggested, J26 on the M5 - it would have all been sorted by now.

[GingerCat]

You can learn to shoot reasonably with a poorly fitted gun but to shoot well it really needs to fit correctly and the difference is as clear as night and day. 

[welshwarrior]

4 hours ago, Ultrastu said:

So please tell .When the gun doesnt fit and slaps the face . But hits the target and you dont feel like your having to alter the head or reach etc .which bit of the fit is wrong ? 

Im genuinely  interested as im keen to learn .

Could you describe the elements that are incorrect .please .as I could have missed something on my new gun .

No one can tell you over the net some of us can tell you face to face.  

 

You say hit the target as though that means it fit lots of people can hit targets from the hip very consistently (some better that most shoot mounted) they also shoot better from the shoulder especially with their gun that fits.  

[Scully]

5 hours ago, Ultrastu said:

Thanks scully .

Im planing a shoot with it this afternoon .so will see how it goes .and if it needs any more work .

Please don’t think I’m rubbishing your gun, I’m not.  Ask around for recommendations of a good fitter and coach, and see what they advise. A few lessons could save you a small fortune. 

As an aside, I like RC SIPE, but I find them a tad punchy even in my 12 bore sporter. 

[Ultrastu]

Just looking for clarity. 

So when some one says. Gun fit .

Do they just mean .setting the gun up so the bits that the body touch  are correct , so the gun shoots where your looking /expect it to hit. 

Or does it involve more. Ie. Cartridge selection .barrel weight/ length  , beads on the end etc  .other wise known as the whole package .? 

So change your cartridge and the gun will behave differently and hence not "fit " you anymore .?? 

Appreciate  the effort and advice from members .on this .

[Ultrastu]

Hi scully. Appreciate the imput .but have to disagree with the statement that cartridge weight ,  barrel length  and overall weight has nothing to do with being slapped by the comb .

And to unequivocally prove this. 

Today my mate bought a new barrel for his 20b hushpower mossberg .and joined me in my hide for a chat and a pige or 2. .the barrel is a 26 inch standard barrel .he put his normal 32 grm nsi loads in it to test the choke he chose on card and first shot smacked him hard on the face. As did all the others .he tried one of my 24 grm loads and the hit wasnt as hard .

Now this is from a gun he has owned for 5+ years and shot exclusivley as his only shotty, But with the heavy moderator on the end. With that barrel the gun is a pussy cat. Without its a beast. 

Interestingly compared to my ou with 2 barrels its still heavier at the front end .though the total weight is very similar .

But kicks in a similar way to my ou .

So to confirm .

Total gun weight makes a difference. 

Light /short barrels kick up more .

Cartridge weight/ power does make a difference

 

Ps .with my 24 grm loads and stock cover my  gun shot well and i killed every thing i aimed at .

Chuffed. 

[Scully]

Ah well. I don’t get slapped at all by any of my guns unless I mount them wrong, which is where constant practise of good technique comes in. 

Big charges in light guns will make themselves felt eventually, but as I’ve already said, if your gun fits you won’t get slapped at all. 

[Ultrastu]

So if my thoughts above are correct .

The old idea of getting a girl or junior shooter a light  20b instead of a heavier 12 b and shooting say 26 grm loads instead of 30 grm 12b loads .because it recoils less and doesnt hurt as much could be wrong ? 

The extra mass of a 12 b with 32 inch barrels and a steel  breech .although heavier to hold and mount .would be easier in the shoulder and on the face .Maybe the answer lies with 21 grm 20b carts.  ? 

But then your at a killing disadvantage  

 

[Scully]

6 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

So if my thoughts above are correct .

The old idea of getting a girl or junior shooter a light  20b instead of a heavier 12 b and shooting say 26 grm loads instead of 30 grm 12b loads .because it recoils less and doesnt hurt as much could be wrong ? 

The extra mass of a 12 b with 32 inch barrels and a steel  breech .although heavier to hold and mount .would be easier in the shoulder and on the face .Maybe the answer lies with 21 grm 20b carts.  ? 

But then your at a killing disadvantage  

 

I’ve always advocated that if the child is capable of properly holding a 12, then give them a 12 with wide open chokes, and light loads, as there is nothing like persistently missing to put someone off. But you’re talking about felt recoil in the shoulder, whereas I’m talking about your gun slapping your cheekbone. If you’re getting slapped it’s because you are using an ill fitting gun.

[Ultrastu]

Just now, Scully said:

I’ve always advocated that if the child is capable of properly holding a 12, then give them a 12 with wide open chokes, and light loads, as there is nothing like persistently missing to put someone off. But you’re talking about felt recoil in the shoulder, whereas I’m talking about your gun slapping your cheekbone. If you’re getting slapped it’s because you are using an ill fitting gun.

Thats fine .but i dont agree with you scully .

Due to the natural shape of a gun .the barrel plane  is always higher than the pivot point of the gun .ie the butt is lower down and in the shoulder .so when fired the muzzle will always lift as it pivots,  at the butt upwards . If you could design an absolutley straight stock from muzzle to buttpad (no drop to heal) 

The the recoil would be totally linea and straight back .

If you designed the barrel lower than the the butt .then when fired the gun would jump downwards .

So the lighter the gun  the more powerful /heavier the cart .the more the barrel WILL lift .and when it gets too great then you get slapped on the cheek .irrespective of whether your face is hard pressed or loose .Physics.  

Not conjecture. 

Im not only talking recoil .as in backwards movement. But also muzzle lift  as they go hand in hand .they will both increase at the same rate unless there is a gun redesign .

 

Ps there are some pistols that have a very low barrel .these dont flip up as much as a traditional barrel and are easier to shoot and quicker to get back on aim .

[Ultrastu]

These rhino pistols have a lower barrel that is chambered from the bottom of the mag .

[Scully]

42 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

Thats fine .but i dont agree with you scully .

 

Thats fine, its not compulsory. 

The revolver design is a variation on a theme which is designed not to alleviate recoil but to reduce muzzle flip, in an attempt to acquire ones target quicker, as you correctly point out. Ported barrels are meant to do the same. Neither however, will prevent you being slapped by your shotgun if you have your cheekbone squashed down onto the comb to achieve a better sight picture. 

[GingerCat]

If the gun fits it won't slap you in the face with the stock. It can't as it's welded to you cheek as it fits correctly (assuming of course you have consistent mount). That is regardless of the barrels or carts your firing though it or how much they rise when fired. 

We are not talking about revolvers and muzzle flip as they don't have stocks you put your cheek on and won't slap your cheek.  

Your shoulder may feel more or less recoil depending on the load your firing and the weight of the gun (physics) but your face will be distinctly "unslapped". 

 

To summarise - if you have a consistent mount and get slapped to the face when firing your shotgun it's 99.99% due to it not fitting. The 0.01% is because you lifted your head. 

If your shoulder is sore it's due to felt recoil and not gun fit so use lighter carts or shoot less of them. 

See a coach if your unsure and they will help you out. Most clay clubs have them and they are normally happy to help.  We cant over the net as we would need to see you mount the gun. They did for me and the difference was startling  

[stu64]

My 12g ATA with 26" barrels and alloy action kicked hard with 28 gram clay loads, and hurt my face. the gun was something like 6.5lbs. i could shoot well with it- 46/50 at the clay ground. I thought gun fit was pretty good, length of pull, drop at comb and heel were pretty much the same as my main gun. I removed the butt pad to find a large void in the timber- the stock had been lightened. I know a heavier gun kicks less-I normally shoot a sporter weighing 8.5lbs- so i tried filling the stock void with nuts and bolts. It was a good sized void and i managed to get in enough scrap to take the gun up to 7.25lbs. this made a big difference to the felt recoil and lessened the slap in the face significantly.( it also upset the balance of the gun, no surprise.) So- same gun, same cartridge, same shooter but making the gun heavier lessened recoil, and in this debate-less face slap. If the gun could have been made up to 8lbs maybe  I would have felt no face slap and negligable recoil?

[GingerCat]

You won't get any face slap if your cheek is tight to the stock. It will simply move with the stock. If your face isint next to the stock all nice and snug when you mount then I suggest the "fit" isint right and your mount may need some work. 

The gun should come up and be an extension of you,with you looking instinctively down the barrel without having to significantly alter your head position. If you need to cram your head down or up or whatever then the stock is too short/too long and you'll get a slap to the chops for your trouble and not shoot as well as you could. 

You can demonstrate this by putting you hand 3 inches for your face and slapping yourself. It will smart. Then put your hand on your cheek (like a nicely fitting butt stock) and try to slap yourself again. You can't. You simply move your head a bit. No slap. 

Don't take my word for it, pop to a coach and see what they advise.  

[stu64]

Perhaps slap is the wrong word, face is definitely nicely planted against the stock, exactly the same as my main clay gun. I also had a cheap bettinsoli for a couple years, generic stock measurements, never had face pain/slap/knock/bruising. I find it nearly impossible to shoot unless my face is against the stock- the gun just isn't mounted right. 

[Scully]

14 minutes ago, stu64 said:

Perhaps slap is the wrong word, face is definitely nicely planted against the stock, exactly the same as my main clay gun. I also had a cheap bettinsoli for a couple years, generic stock measurements, never had face pain/slap/knock/bruising. I find it nearly impossible to shoot unless my face is against the stock- the gun just isn't mounted right. 

And that's correct; your cheek is meant to be against the stock. 

[welshwarrior]

35 minutes ago, stu64 said:

Perhaps slap is the wrong word, face is definitely nicely planted against the stock, exactly the same as my main clay gun. I also had a cheap bettinsoli for a couple years, generic stock measurements, never had face pain/slap/knock/bruising. I find it nearly impossible to shoot unless my face is against the stock- the gun just isn't mounted right. 

But if the comb is to high you’ll still get a bruise.   If you bury your head onto a comb that’s to low you’ll still get a slap. 

[Scully]

1 hour ago, welshwarrior said:

But if the comb is to high you’ll still get a bruise.   If you bury your head onto a comb that’s to low you’ll still get a slap. 

This.

[stu64]

I think you misunderstood my remark about having my cheek against the stock or the gun isn't mounted properly, I was responding to ginger cats comment about face slap. Of course you mount the gun against your cheek. I agree that Gun fit is very important, but I have shot 3 guns with pretty much identical stock dimensions, drop at comb and drop at heel the same on 3 guns. Comb/cheek alignment and pressure all the same. The guns are mounted the same. 2 are fine and one isn't. The only difference is gun weight.

[GingerCat]

27 minutes ago, stu64 said:

I think you misunderstood my remark about having my cheek against the stock or the gun isn't mounted properly, I was responding to ginger cats comment about face slap. Of course you mount the gun against your cheek. I agree that Gun fit is very important, but I have shot 3 guns with pretty much identical stock dimensions, drop at comb and drop at heel the same on 3 guns. Comb/cheek alignment and pressure all the same. The guns are mounted the same. 2 are fine and one isn't. The only difference is gun weight.

Somethings different with the 3rd one and I bet it's not just weight. Have a look at the butt pad, does it have the same curve/slope as the rest. The slightest thing can make a dogs ear out of a perfectly good gun. Weight should only make a difference to felt recoil and some of the best handling sbs are very light.

Still if your sure it fits and you shoot well and are happy with it then who am I to argue. 

[welshwarrior]

1 hour ago, stu64 said:

I have shot 3 guns with pretty much identical stock dimensions, drop at comb and drop at heel the same on 3 guns. Comb/cheek alignment and pressure all the same. The guns are mounted the same. 2 are fine and one isn't. The only difference is gun weight.

You’re not listen I’ve said enough times on this thread the weight of a gun changes the dimensions to make it fit.  The reason your get slapped is it’s the same dimensions as the heavier guns.  

Edited October 2, 2018 by welshwarrior