Back bored 12bore - Fibre Game Cartridge.

[Salop Matt]

Right it's well established that in a back bored gun fibre wads don't seal aswell as plastic wads. But which fibre game cartridges give the best gas seal?

From what I've read the worse the gas seal the worse the pattern! Or is this not true?

So dispel the gas seal / pattern results and or which cartridges seal the best! 

TIA

 

[JRDS]

I shoot Pigeons with a 692 and Fibre Wad Cartridges, don't have any issues?

[wymberley]

Either those with a plastic obturator - eg Rottweil - or those with a higher quality - and probably more expensive - wad.

Yes, true. With regard to pattern density, I could not get past IC even when using X Full choke and the pattern quality was abysmal. Not only was the spread bad but the gas leakage had caused balling and with a lesser degree in severity of effect, crypto balling.

Although not all guns/cartridges are affected (as just posted) it can not be dispelled as it it a fact that it can occur. I would imagine that if you give your model of gun someone will be able to give you an answer. Other than that, it's probably a case of suck it and see probably at a pattern plate.

Edited September 24, 2018 by wymberley

[Salop Matt]

Browning B525 sporter 30" MC invector plus here.

Teague 3/8 in both barrels.

TIA

[figgy]

Cant say i have noticed a difference with recent Fiberwad cartridges. Maybe the manufacturers have got better with getting them to seal.

[Uilleachan]

1 hour ago, salop sniper said:

Browning B525 sporter 30" MC invector plus here.

Teague 3/8 in both barrels.

TIA

Snap. 

My exact sporting set up ( 7/8 in the top for DTL).

I've not conducted any scientific pattern testing with fibre loads, but have done enough to know that I've very little confidence in fibre past 25y in that gun. My best pattern results (for clay loads) came with FBLU plastic and the 3/8 and 7/8 teague chokes.   

Conversely fibre work well in my tighter AYA, so that's the tool for fibre only game shooting, but but very interested to know if there was a good performing fibre load for the back bored browning barrels too. 

[JohnfromUK]

What diameter is the back bored part?  If a 'normal' 12 bore starts at 0.729 (nominally 9" forward of the breech face), many older guns nearing re-proof are approx 0.736 to 0.738.  Does back boring go much larger than this?  If so how far up the barrel does it extend?  Are such guns proved as a '12', or are they proved at a larger size?  Finally - what 'advantage' does it provide? (or is it just another 'marketing gimmick?).

Sorry for all the questions, but back boring is an area of which I have no knowledge.  To the best of my knowledge none of my guns are 'back bored', though some are a bit up within their allowed proof 'limits'.

[Salopian]

I have just measured a plastic obturator and a new fibre wad , obturator diameter is 0.715" and wad is 0.725 " given that the wad will be compressed and will bulge due to compressive forces upon ignition , I would not think it will be an issue in a quality made cartridge in a Browning gun?

[figgy]

I have broken and watched friends break clays at at long range with fiberwad clay carts consistently, all through various back bored guns. On game i have used fiberwad and backbored gun never once had a problem. 

Not sure why people have no confidence, mix some up with plas wad carts dont look and just shoot,see if you can tell the difference.

Edited September 24, 2018 by figgy

[Uilleachan]

3 minutes ago, figgy said:

I have broken and watched friends break clays at at long range with fiberwad clay carts consistently, all through various back bored guns. On game i have used fiberwad and backbored gun never once had a problem. 

Not sure why people have no confidence, mix some up with plas wad carts dont look and just shoot,see if you can tell the difference.

Patterning and the evidence, witnessed with my own eyes. I've shot plenty fibre wadded cart out of my back bored gun, even have a little silverware won shooting fibre, but once things get at and beyond medium range, 30y, those same carts didn't pattern (eley select olympic blue TT1 fibre). Quite an eye opener, especially for trap where a switch to plastic upped my scores. 

There's not much in it, standard is circa 18.4mm 525 back bore is 18.7mm, so the difference is just a tad under a half mil.

The question is: which fibre fibre game load works best in a back bored gun, identified as a 525 with a 18.7mm bore. So if anyone knows, salop sniper (and me) would be keen to know 

[Diss4111]

Get a fibre wad and try and push it down the barrel with a cleaning rod. You will then know how good a seal you get as it isn't easy.All this poor gas seal is a myth put about by the 'shoot plastic' brigade.

 

[figgy]

Gamebore black gold and Dark storm worked well in my Backbored gun on game both in 32Gram 5.5 shot. It was a Beretta with one barrel 18.6 other barrel stamped 18.7.Patterns were fine out to 45 Yards with Half choke i never pattered them past that. Another good performer was the Lyalvale Traditional game carts in 25gram  and 28gram 6 shot, i think these carts were the most versatile through nominal bored guns and overbored guns. As much as l liked using fiberwad Hull Superfasts i didnt like the Hull Imperial Game carts in Fiberwad and never got a decent kill with them.

Hope this helps.

Edited September 24, 2018 by figgy

[wymberley]

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

What diameter is the back bored part?  If a 'normal' 12 bore starts at 0.729 (nominally 9" forward of the breech face), many older guns nearing re-proof are approx 0.736 to 0.738.  Does back boring go much larger than this?  If so how far up the barrel does it extend?  Are such guns proved as a '12', or are they proved at a larger size?  Finally - what 'advantage' does it provide? (or is it just another 'marketing gimmick?).

Sorry for all the questions, but back boring is an area of which I have no knowledge.  To the best of my knowledge none of my guns are 'back bored', though some are a bit up within their allowed proof 'limits'.

Various Browning models - including my Maxus - are 0.742" or 18.85mm.

[JohnfromUK]

3 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Various Browning models - including my Maxus - are 0.742" or 18.85mm.

Are they proofed at 18.85mm ?  I did look at Browning's website, but other than 'selling' all the advantages, it didn't actually tell you much.

Edited September 24, 2018 by JohnfromUK

[Westward]

1 hour ago, figgy said:

I have broken and watched friends break clays at at long range with fiberwad clay carts consistently, all through various back bored guns. On game i have used fiberwad and backbored gun never once had a problem. 

Not sure why people have no confidence, mix some up with plas wad carts dont look and just shoot,see if you can tell the difference.

Same here, but I've none of my guns have had bores bigger than .732 (18.6mm).

I recently shot a round of 50 at Oxford Shooting School where fibres are required, but having only shot plastic for the last 5 or 6 years I was surprised at how well the Eley First fibres broke the clays. I'd be quite happy to use fibres all the time but for price difference.

[wymberley]

12 minutes ago, Diss4111 said:

Get a fibre wad and try and push it down the barrel with a cleaning rod. You will then know how good a seal you get as it isn't easy.All this poor gas seal is a myth put about by the 'shoot plastic' brigade.

 

As a long time - very long time - fibre shooter, that's good to know.

4 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Are they proofed at 18.85mm ?  I did look at Browning's website, but other than 'selling' all the advantages, it didn't actually tell you much.

Haven't a clue. Bought is from my local RFD -sold as a 12 bore and actually is a 12 bore -  via the UK importers. As I'm obliged to shoot fibre (don't do clays) I couldn't be doing with it and as step-son has no such restrictions and was itching to get his sticky little fingers on it, he now has it. Try Googling Browning Maxus 12 gauge back bored barrel dimension. This has cropped up before - we have another west country member who has seen the patterns the cartridges I was using gave - but I've checked and the photo's which appeared on here have gone as I've now deleted them from my files.

[Diss4111]

I do not believe in patterning as no two cartridges even out of the same box will never give the same pattern. I have shot 1000's of plastic wad cartridges, I then changed to fibre for both enviromental reasons as well as clubs not allowing plastics. I never noticed any difference in my scores, and they are around 75-90% consistently.

[wymberley]

4 minutes ago, Diss4111 said:

I do not believe in patterning as no two cartridges even out of the same box will never give the same pattern. I have shot 1000's of plastic wad cartridges, I then changed to fibre for both enviromental reasons as well as clubs not allowing plastics. I never noticed any difference in my scores, and they are around 75-90% consistently.

Yep. I wonder if that's why for research purposes the average from 10 shots and for field use, 6, are deemed necessary to obtain a working result.

[Salop Matt]

Both my barrels are stamped 18.7 in my B525. 

[dipper]

One of my guns is a MK38 38 backbored  .I shoot fiber at clays if I couldn’t break Long clays .iwould use another gun .most wads I’ve measured are 750  cleaner wads are 750.I think useing felt wads in 3” chambers could create problems.As for game shooting . There a a lot of old English guns that are overbored barrels lapped out to remove pitting.We can all be a bit anal .I would like to see 2 good shots shooting high birds 1 shooting plastic .1 shooting fiber with over bored guns. I bet there’s no difference.

[JohnfromUK]

18 hours ago, dipper said:

There a a lot of old English guns that are overbored barrels lapped out to remove pitting.We can all be a bit anal .I would like to see 2 good shots shooting high birds 1 shooting plastic .1 shooting fiber with over bored guns. I bet there’s no difference.

Certainly old English guns can vary from a near 13/1 (0.719 nominal which was what many 12 were proved at originally) in the low 0.720s region to re-proofed (at .739 nominal) 12s measuring over 0.740.  However, there would have 2 5/8 (2 1/2 nominal) chambers, which may help get a seal.

I always use fibre, and I know I use at least one old English gun in reproof - and as far as I can tell without formal patterning, it patterns well (it can certainly break fairly long clays consistently and impressively 'shattered' - and using fibre 21g loads). 

Edit: Out of interest, I measured this gun today - and it is 0.731 in both barrels.  The reason it is a 're-proof' is that (like many English guns) the original proof was as a 13/1 (0.719 nominal).  The most 'open' gun I have is only 0.737.

 

Edited September 25, 2018 by JohnfromUK
Added information in italics

[Old farrier]

Just my take on this 

as some of you know I have a few guns and over the years I’ve had many in all configurations and I’ve categories for them 

trap powders clays at 40 yards 

clay Guns break clays out to 40 yards 

Game Guns kill Game without making it inedible in sensible range 

and killing gun the ones that you are consistently confident it’s dead virtually no wounded birds out to extended ranges 

game Cartriges for this season and the previous 3 or 4 

impax paper case fibre 

30...32 gram RC sipes fibre plastic case 

34 gram RC paper whites paper case fibre 

On a day on a new shoot or one professing high birds 

my go to gun and one I would consider a killing gun 

back bored browning special waterfowl 3.1/2 inch chambers 

while I agree with pattern test on paper the truest test is in the field and how the gun performs I tend to adjust the cartridge to the day so use a variety from 28 to 34 gram and the back boaring has in my opinion no detrimental affects 

just my take on it 

all the best 

of 

[Gordon R]

Quote

All this poor gas seal is a myth put about by the 'shoot plastic' brigade.

Sorry - don't agree. Simple physics should tell you that a fibre wad, manufactured to fit a normal bore, will not expand to the larger size of a back bored gun, as would a plastic wad.

http://www.sportingshooter.co.uk/features/all-about-bore-a-not-so-boring-tale-1-5307410

[Salopian]

Gordon , 

As stated earlier a fibre wad is manufactured to a larger diameter than overbored barrels !

[wymberley]

16 minutes ago, Salopian said:

Gordon , 

As stated earlier a fibre wad is manufactured to a larger diameter than overbored barrels !

So the one you measured earlier at 0.725" is designed to handle a 0.742" diameter barrel. No one is saying that a back-bored barrel will cause a problem with a fibre wad, but that it CAN. Are all wads made the same and perform the same? I know for a fact that the finished products that they're installed in don't. The ones in the cartridges that caused me grief performed perfectly well in the non back-bored barrels of the two guys I sold them to as I wouldn't sell them until we'd been to the pattern plate and they were happy with the results. Somebody posting simply that "I haven't had a problem" is in reality meaningless simply because of "will" and "can". There would appear to be sufficient anecdotal evidence that there's something not right. If this is correct then it may - or may not - revolve around the word, "cheap". However, as there's something else going on with an increasing frequency, I'm beginning to wonder if the problem - should there actually be one and I believe that there is - is being compounded.