Travel of steel shot

[yickdaz]

7 minutes ago, guy baxendale said:

 

Personally i think a total lead ban is inevitable

I hope not but good chance it will be 

[wymberley]

2 hours ago, 243deer said:

Wymberly, having studied mathematics at uni I would be very interested in what assumptions are being made with regards to your empirical formula, is it the result of significant testing? I once did a project on the 'ballistics' of a golf ball on the moon assuming the moons gravitational pull and zero resistance (this was the nearest I was allowed to get to proper ballistics without upsetting folk - even way back then the snowflakes were gaining hold), the best angle for a drive turned out to be approx 40 degrees.

By gum, you've got me beat hands down. I'm nowhere near the brightest cherry but did manage to pass out as a Trenchard Brat - I have no 'O' levels having passed the entrance exam for the mentioned School and even on leaving the Service managed to get an HND in Fluid Power Technology and Design. I like to think though that I do have a modicum of common sense and consequently reading - and as they say "inwardly digesting" - Burrard has made up for my lack of grey matter.

Edited October 17, 2018 by wymberley

[marsh man]

2 hours ago, yickdaz said:

after firing over 1000 steel carts at pigeons this summer up to now I have mixed feelings about steel sometimes you pull down a bird at  50 yards and think  bloody hell they aren't supposed to kill that far out then you hit a bird at 30 yards with a plume of feathers out of them and think how are you still flying on  then fly on and die  also see exit holes in birds were the shot has passed straight through the bird that could be the answer its that hard it passes through them and they don't react straight away then bleed out and die either on the wing or when they land within minutes they die  it will never replace lead for consistant kills but could live with shooting steel if nothing else was allowed 

There is nothing like practical experience , its alright saying what steel should and shouldn't do when it comes to range and the distance it could travel , but the real test is when you pull the trigger , after all these years people have used steel for fowling you still get conflicting reports on how good or how bad it preforms , a good mate of mine used steel all one Summer when it first came out and shot well over 1000 pigeons purely to get use to them for when the wildfowl season start , on his shoot he have got a duck drive and I have seen him shoot duck as good as you will get , 

Steel shot is a bit like Marmite , you either like it or you don't , all I can say to those that don't is to use it throughout the close season and get use to what it can and cant do and by the following season you might have changed your mind . 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[yickdaz]

2 minutes ago, marsh man said:

There is nothing like practical experience , its alright saying what steel should and shouldn't do when it comes to range and the distance it could travel , but the real test is when you pull the trigger , after all these years people have used steel for fowling you still get conflicting reports on how good or how bad it preforms , a good mate of mine used steel all one Summer when it first came out and shot well over 1000 pigeons purely to get use to them for when the wildfowl season start , on his shoot he have got a duck drive and I have seen him shoot duck as good as you will get , 

Steel shot is a bit like Marmite , you either like it or you don't , all I can say to those that don't is to use it throughout the close season and get use to what it can and cant do and by the following season you might have changed your mind . 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

spot on without giving it a proper go you will never get a sense of how it performs I have  never shot steel to this extent since it came out, only reason  I have done I wanted to sell the birds to the  bird of prey guys to help offload what I shoot, you have to have an open mind and not a  preconceived one 

[Westley]

12 hours ago, wymberley said:

As far as I can remember, the only distance that was changed was the splash back distane which was doubled.

No, I am sure they extended the distance when they changed the figures from imperial to metric. I will try to find my old rule book, but I feel sure it was 250 yards. They then changed it to 300 metres.

The gun club that I ran had a bungalow that was right on the edge at 250 yards, BUT, it fell inside on 300 metres. Those measurements done by C.P.S.A. around1998/9 ish !

[wymberley]

45 minutes ago, Westley said:

No, I am sure they extended the distance when they changed the figures from imperial to metric. I will try to find my old rule book, but I feel sure it was 250 yards. They then changed it to 300 metres.

The gun club that I ran had a bungalow that was right on the edge at 250 yards, BUT, it fell inside on 300 metres. Those measurements done by C.P.S.A. around1998/9 ish !

For some reason 300 yards and 275 metres rings a bell, but it's years since I was a Royal Marines qualified conducting officer (as a civilian) and did the CPSA safety officers course so things are a tad fuzzy now.

[Westley]

5 minutes ago, wymberley said:

For some reason 300 yards and 275 metres rings a bell, but it's years since I was a Royal Marines qualified conducting officer (as a civilian) and did the CPSA safety officers course so things are a tad fuzzy now.

I was later, a CPSA County Rep and as such,  inspected grounds for suitability for Affiliated Memberships. But again, all a long time ago.

[nic]

https://basc.org.uk/science/advice/bascs-shot-travel-database/

 

 

this may help

 

Nic

[Saltings]

done a lot of research and development over the last 20 years  don't know about distance but if buying commercially loaded steel compared to lead shot   lead shot a win for striking energy    if home loading steel to American Sami recopies  a steel win every day     even going to Scotland I use home loads to Sami  recipe patterns better at range more pellets on target shoots tighter than lead  wildfowling my choice is steel home loads not that long ago commercial steel was a viable option on clays more pellets per oz cheaper than lead only problem cip ruling not going fast enough compared to sami regs  slows down faster so needs to be sent faster to have same striking energy at 40 yrds some people reckon steel shot is no good and does not kill anything with it but    they do not kill everything with lead if you home load steel your averages are far better than shop bought steel (my honest opinion) 

Edited October 18, 2018 by Saltings

[Saltings]

On ‎17‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 16:54, yickdaz said:

after firing over 1000 steel carts at pigeons this summer up to now I have mixed feelings about steel sometimes you pull down a bird at  50 yards and think  bloody hell they aren't supposed to kill that far out then you hit a bird at 30 yards with a plume of feathers out of them and think how are you still flying on  then fly on and die  also see exit holes in birds were the shot has passed straight through the bird that could be the answer its that hard it passes through them and they don't react straight away then bleed out and die either on the wing or when they land within minutes they die  it will never replace lead for consistant kills but could live with shooting steel if nothing else was allowed 

clay shooting junk metal alloys have the same effect as steel  which is why advertised at1450fps     cannot run steel that fast cip ruling    proper lead 1250 max or you blow the pattern black powder runs about 900fps some of the best kill I've ever had       shop bought shells and yes one pellet in the right place stone dead or fly to the nearest tree and fall out 10m later with loads of holes straight through     home made lead/ soft lead  flattens out on impact massive trauma dead straight away  even from one pellet 

[guy baxendale]

20 hours ago, nic said:

https://basc.org.uk/science/advice/bascs-shot-travel-database/

 

 

this may help

 

Nic

Thanks Nic

[motty]

13 hours ago, Saltings said:

clay shooting junk metal alloys have the same effect as steel  which is why advertised at1450fps     cannot run steel that fast cip ruling    proper lead 1250 max or you blow the pattern black powder runs about 900fps some of the best kill I've ever had       shop bought shells and yes one pellet in the right place stone dead or fly to the nearest tree and fall out 10m later with loads of holes straight through     home made lead/ soft lead  flattens out on impact massive trauma dead straight away  even from one pellet 

I totally disagree with the final few lines. I have never seen a flat lead pellet in any bird I have dressed.

Lead and steel shot can easily pass through a bird. I have shot birds with lead and steel that fly on and die soon after.

[Fen tiger]

20 hours ago, motty said:

I totally disagree with the final few lines. I have never seen a flat lead pellet in any bird I have dressed.

Lead and steel shot can easily pass through a bird. I have shot birds with lead and steel that fly on and die soon after.

I have seen lead pellets flattened out in breast down before, this was back in the day low antimony big lead AAA shot in 4 ga that was not that high velocity around 1100 1150 at a guess.  I dont ever remember seeing it with the smaller sizes say under BB size. 

[Saltings]

On ‎19‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 14:29, motty said:

I totally disagree with the final few lines. I have never seen a flat lead pellet in any bird I have dressed.

Lead and steel shot can easily pass through a bird. I have shot birds with lead and steel that fly on and die soon after.

modern day lead is really hard dew to other metals alloys  my post said home made lead / soft lead made from roofing lead without additives so similar to old school tower dropped shot does distort on impact shop bought shot  does not and will pass through same as steel hence 1450 fps on the box    hence old lead shot could not be sent faster than 1250 fps as it blows  the pattern in black powder guns excellent patterns  tower shot was soft lead and  then chilled lead came along harder and today we have alloy shot very similar in weight and pellet count to steel hence 1450 fps and does not distort as proper lead does       larger shot  could not be dropped and were cast in a mould using soft lead hence would distort on impact and would not pass through  soft lead distorts on impact       modern day commercial shot does not and will pass straight through to fly on and succumb later

[motty]

2 hours ago, Saltings said:

modern day lead is really hard dew to other metals alloys  my post said home made lead / soft lead made from roofing lead without additives so similar to old school tower dropped shot does distort on impact shop bought shot  does not and will pass through same as steel hence 1450 fps on the box    hence old lead shot could not be sent faster than 1250 fps as it blows  the pattern in black powder guns excellent patterns  tower shot was soft lead and  then chilled lead came along harder and today we have alloy shot very similar in weight and pellet count to steel hence 1450 fps and does not distort as proper lead does       larger shot  could not be dropped and were cast in a mould using soft lead hence would distort on impact and would not pass through  soft lead distorts on impact       modern day commercial shot does not and will pass straight through to fly on and succumb later

If what you say is true (which I don't really believe), then we would be far better off using soft lead for shooting live quarry. The manufacturers should take note!

[Saltings]

4 minutes ago, motty said:

If what you say is true (which I don't really believe), then we would be far better off using soft lead for shooting live quarry. The manufacturers should take note!

costs too much for proper lead shot and with a little anatomy to harden is expensive     alloys are cheaper if you want  some soft lead shot to try and compare I can supply you with some to reload  and make your own mind up 

[Fen tiger]

8 hours ago, motty said:

If what you say is true (which I don't really believe), then we would be far better off using soft lead for shooting live quarry. The manufacturers should take note!

The manufacturers did!  in old eley game loads they loaded soft lead, and in clay loads some % antimony . i think in more recent times cost might have been a factor dictating the antimony content. I never compared the two but was always of the assumption the softer lead did not pattern quite as good without buffering etc compared to the higher antimony content stuff this could be another factor in the harder lead becoming mainstream..

[Stonepark]

For comparison

Lead Shot - pure lead as used in roofing cast but not rolled (annealed pure lead) has a Brinell hardness of 4 (Can withstand up to 5000psi)

Lead shot 0.25% Antimony  has a Brinell hardness of 5 (Up to 5800 psi)

Lead shot 1% Antimony  has a Brinell hardness of 7 (9000 psi)

Lead shot 2% Antimony  has a Brinell hardness of 8 (10250 psi)

Lead shot 3% Antimony  has a Brinell hardness of 9 (Up to 11600 psi)

Lead shot 5% Antimony has a Brinell hardness of 11 (14130 psi)

Lead shot 6% Antimony (Soft cast Bullet) has a Brinell hardness of 12 (15050 psi)

Lead shot 12% Antimony (Hard Cast Bullet) has a Brinell hardness of 16 (19100psi)

 

Chilled shot is lead shot that is dropped into water (generally) and means little if anything as all the lead starts off molten, has solidified by the time it hits the water (crystals have already developed) and cools to water (air) temperature in a few seconds.  It is not hardening/tempering as you would get in steel where you can adjust the hardness depending on the temperature it is raised to the first time (1050 to 1090c) the 2nd time (175 t0 350c)  and also control the speed of cooling back down to air temperature.

 

Traditionally with nitro powders nearly all 12 bore shotgun cartridges of 1oz or 1 1/8 oz run at least 7000 to 8000 psi with only a few exceptions such as lighter loadings or subsonics.

Most 1 1/4  or heavier loads run in the 9000-11000 psi band.

There therefore needs to be at least 1% antimony in any lead shot just for general use and any heavy loads should be at least 3% antimony.

Modern cartridges introduced the often magnum pressures to the lighter loads as well (think black gold game etc) and therefore also need 3% antimony as standard (diamond shot if sticking with gamebore analogy).

If you are using pure lead in a modern heavy loading, all the distortion to the pellets is happening in the cartridge/barrel, not the quarry. My dad used to do similar home made chilled shot and his cartridges were infamous for knocking down adjacent birds (whilst only having aimed at one of them) as the pattern was that open due to distorted shot caused by pressure during firing and going through a tight barreled, full choke Baikal at magnum 2 3/4 pressures.

As to impact (and unless hitting a vertical hard non brittle surface such as steel plate where velocity goes from 600fps to 0fps with no penetration, therefore all kinetic energy is then dissipated through friction) , soft or hard lead shot does not make any significant difference with regards penetration as there is not enough residual energy remaining in the shot to deform the pellets on impact with such soft targets as it is the target in which the damage occurs, not the pellet.