Perazzishot Posted October 31, 2018 Report Share Posted October 31, 2018 Old Farrier Thank You. My chosen musket currently is a pair of Grade 5 32" Miroku MK38's both Teagued and with adjustable combs. Have a set of Briley Helix which will take the barrels out to 34" if I feel it is required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted October 31, 2018 Report Share Posted October 31, 2018 7 minutes ago, Perazzishot said: A pheasant arriving at the front end of a pattern at 45 mph will be hit with multiple strikes at any range. A pheasant hit in the back end with the start of any pattern will still be wounded as it is flying away from the pattern regardless of height so the wounded argument is totally flawed. On a clay however front end or back end it is still a kill so totally different scenario and not to be mixed up IMHO! There's more to a pattern of shotgun pellets than you might think, as Simon Ward explains. It is a fair assumption that most people who shoot rarely consider shot string. Yes, they may think of the pattern and the speed at which it travels. But the pattern to most mind's eyes is a plate-shaped circle, with hopefully not too many holes in it. This is precisely what you see when you test a gun on a pattern plate. You get a pretty good idea of how your gun and cartridge combination are performing. But not entirely. For as the pellets fly through the air, they not only do so in the shape of an ever-widening plate but in a long string which extends in flight. In approximate terms it can be around 5 feet in length at 20 yards extending to 8 feet at 30 yards. The accompanying photograph by Susan Brunskill clearly illustrates what happens. The variation is as a result of deformation of pellets as they pass along the barrel. Those at the bottom of the load in the cartridge will suffer most, as a consequence of which their flight will not be true, nor will they travel at quite the same speed as the front end of the load which will consist of still fairly perfectly spherical pellets. In effect you are sending a column of pellets in front of the intended target. I'm not normally in favour of getting too bogged down in the technicalities of ballistics, I am more interested in getting the string to the right spot. But I do think that it is useful to understand the dynamics of shot string, as it can give you more confidence in placing your shot ahead of a crossing bird. Ideally you will connect with the centre of the string, where there will be a good concentration of pellets. But you can give a little more forward allowance than you might think is necessary, and the shot string will look after you. Not to mention a good spread of pellets across a 30” circle. Basically it's a wonder we ever miss! Of course we are talking about a shot charge travelling at 1100fps, so it's not as simple as it sounds, but nevertheless an understanding of the dynamics of the content of your cartridge can only help. The quality of the cartridge can also make a difference. It is worth trying a few different makes to find which one is the most compatible with your gun. Performance can vary. Generally, as with most things in life, the more expensive cartridges are better, but it may well be that the ‘own brand' cheapies from your local farm shop will do the trick. Once you have found what suits you then stick with it. Then provided your gun fits you properly, your confidence with your chosen cartridge will blossom. You will not be filled with doubt about your combination - you can just get on with your shooting. The odd misses will be inevitable - forget them. It's the next shot that counts. Have confidence. Read your first paragraph again. It is total and utter nonsense. You clearly have no clue about shotgun patterns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perazzishot Posted October 31, 2018 Report Share Posted October 31, 2018 To kill a bird cleanly you need it to fly into your pattern as it is not a static object reading the height and the speed, the slide and if it is climbing is what is need to be considered when you take that shot so full understanding of the way it works is uppermost and with the advent of shotkam footage is very well documented. Unless you are hoping any bird is going to go into reverse gear Motty when it feels a couple of shots in its gut it is flying on wounded my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted October 31, 2018 Report Share Posted October 31, 2018 6 minutes ago, Perazzishot said: Old Farrier Thank You. My chosen musket currently is a pair of Grade 5 32" Miroku MK38's both Teagued and with adjustable combs. Have a set of Briley Helix which will take the barrels out to 34" if I feel it is required. And I was thinking of changing my pair of mirouke for a perazzi maybe just stick with them 🙂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted October 31, 2018 Report Share Posted October 31, 2018 Sorry Perazzishot I don't know where you copy pasted that from but in common with a whole lot of nostalgic (read flawed) writings and assumptions the old shot string fantasy has been well and truly put to bed, it appears you just haven't got round to finding out yet. Shot string does exist, it's just that it serves no magic in hitting things, if you're too far in front you will miss in front, if too far behind you will miss behind. The above statement applies to ranges that are within the remit of the ammo and where true repeatability and consistency can be achieved, ranges at which pattern has failed rely on random luck. 255 pellets V 90 yards 😁 😇 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultrastu Posted October 31, 2018 Report Share Posted October 31, 2018 That quote by simon ward made me laugh . He also admits in that piece that he doesnt understand ballistics and then goes on to describe what a 10 year old knows about shotgunning. 🤣. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted October 31, 2018 Report Share Posted October 31, 2018 7 minutes ago, Perazzishot said: To kill a bird cleanly you need it to fly into your pattern as it is not a static object reading the height and the speed, the slide and if it is climbing is what is need to be considered when you take that shot so full understanding of the way it works is uppermost and with the advent of shotkam footage is very well documented. Unless you are hoping any bird is going to go into reverse gear Motty when it feels a couple of shots in its gut it is flying on wounded my friend. You said multiple strikes at any range. That is simply NOT true! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokersmith Posted October 31, 2018 Report Share Posted October 31, 2018 I've been fortunate enough to attend several of the shoots mentioned (I thought Robert had finished Lechweddygarth this year). I did take the time to pattern various loads (34 to 40g), and drew the conclusion that anything much past 60 yards had BIG holes in the pattern ... (so ended up using 35g of 2.9mm, or 34g of 3.0mm). Yes ... 4's (probably UK 3's depending on your brand of shells) do kill stuff at huge distances, but I know that luck plays it's part. When I pull the trigger, I want to know that when I've done my bit, the target will die. The argument is that it's about testing your skill ... when you have no idea of your pattern REALLY DOES NOT stand up. If you do pattern your gun at 90 yards, I suggest whitewashing the side of a barn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perazzishot Posted October 31, 2018 Report Share Posted October 31, 2018 Ok Motty so a pheasant with a wingspan of almost 1 metre and a body length of 60 cms flying into the front edge of a pattern is not going to receive multiple strikes when your learned friends have already quoted that shot string accounts for a further 4" of strike at 45yards (I think was quoted) so you are saying their will be holes in that pattern almost 1 metre in diameter! You say I'm talking nonsense. Give yourself a shake min! Hamster shotstring exists and well you know it it has been filmed and documented! Because you choose to dismiss it doesn't mean it isn't true, I can see shot and can clearly see pattern and string especially on sunny days when folk are using polished shot. I'm away out shooting anyhow catch up with this later on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shalfordninja33 Posted October 31, 2018 Report Share Posted October 31, 2018 35 minutes ago, Perazzishot said: Old Farrier Thank You. My chosen musket currently is a pair of Grade 5 32" Miroku MK38's both Teagued and with adjustable combs. Have a set of Briley Helix which will take the barrels out to 34" if I feel it is required. Very nice pieces sir! With 36gm + being used on these days is anyone using semi autos yet? The recoil from that kind of load must be pretty fearsome. I imagine a gas operated gun would be softer on the shoulder. Im all for the tradition of a double barrelled gun. But from a practicality viewpoint an auto would make sense IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokersmith Posted October 31, 2018 Report Share Posted October 31, 2018 6 minutes ago, Perazzishot said: a pheasant with a wingspan of almost 1 metre and a body length of 60 cms That is utter nonsense, my oven is only 40 cm wide!! You do know the feathers don't count !! Pluck one, and show me the beast ... turkeys aren't even that big. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted October 31, 2018 Report Share Posted October 31, 2018 What have we become? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted October 31, 2018 Report Share Posted October 31, 2018 18 minutes ago, Perazzishot said: Ok Motty so a pheasant with a wingspan of almost 1 metre and a body length of 60 cms flying into the front edge of a pattern is not going to receive multiple strikes when your learned friends have already quoted that shot string accounts for a further 4" of strike at 45yards (I think was quoted) so you are saying their will be holes in that pattern almost 1 metre in diameter! You say I'm talking nonsense. Give yourself a shake min! Hamster shotstring exists and well you know it it has been filmed and documented! Because you choose to dismiss it doesn't mean it isn't true, I can see shot and can clearly see pattern and string especially on sunny days when folk are using polished shot. I'm away out shooting anyhow catch up with this later on. I have repeatedly admitted shot string does exist (it's a three dimensional elongated cloud) as opposed to the flat two dimensional print on a pattern plate. I am simply informing you that the flawed assumptions of yesteryear claiming that a target stood more chance of being hit so long as we were a little too far in front are not only nonsense but have been proven to be so. What you have to understand is that statistically speaking during the time the target has travelled 4" it stands an equal chance of MOVING AWAY from (thus dodging) pellets as it does fortuitously bumping into one ! The problem here is that there are too few pellets to cover the side of this particular barn (as Smokersmith rightly says). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AYA117 Posted October 31, 2018 Report Share Posted October 31, 2018 (edited) Pattern plates, shot strings etc. do not change the fact that across the country 6 days a week throughout the season, pheasants are shot at the ranges that Perazzishot is talking about, so there must be a lot of luck floating about! Or could it be experienced shooters using the right cartridges Edited October 31, 2018 by AYA117 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted October 31, 2018 Report Share Posted October 31, 2018 The Ballistic Research Laboratory measured the shot string of a No 3 pellet cartridge at 50 yards as 7.4 metres - the extreme 4s loaded by some makers for high pheasant are such a size. This definition has kept us on the straight and narrow for decades. How would you re-word it? The maximum effective range of a gun in relation to a given kind of game is the greatest range at which it is reasonably certain that a clean kill will be made by a truly aimed shot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPP Posted October 31, 2018 Report Share Posted October 31, 2018 47 minutes ago, Smokersmith said: I've been fortunate enough to attend several of the shoots mentioned (I thought Robert had finished Lechweddygarth this year). He has, Nick has taken it on now, it’s even better! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted October 31, 2018 Report Share Posted October 31, 2018 3 minutes ago, AYA117 said: Pattern plates, shot strings etc. do not change the fact that across the country 6 days a week throughout the season, pheasants are shot at the ranges that Perazzishot is talking about, so there must be a lot of luck floating about! George Digweed has written an article suggesting 70 yards as maximum repeatable doable range, ballistic facts back him up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AYA117 Posted October 31, 2018 Report Share Posted October 31, 2018 1 minute ago, Hamster said: George Digweed has written an article suggesting 70 yards as maximum repeatable doable range, ballistic facts back him up. Is that the same George Digweed that has been on you tube shooting at birds way beyond 70 yards ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted October 31, 2018 Report Share Posted October 31, 2018 Just now, AYA117 said: Is that the same George Digweed that has been on you tube shooting at birds way beyond 70 yards ? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokersmith Posted October 31, 2018 Report Share Posted October 31, 2018 There’s a lot of lead flying about .... The ratios already mentioned are testament to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultrastu Posted October 31, 2018 Report Share Posted October 31, 2018 1 hour ago, Perazzishot said: So re-ask the question, on a Driven pheasant shoot would you? 1. Only shoot what you are sure to kill? 2. Or what would test your ability? Because in my book if it's number 1 then why not shoot them on the ground in a pen if you want to kill everything you fire at? Is it because you think you look a good shot that every pheasant you shoot at you kill 🤔 Think how that is perceived by any watching member of the public....it would be described as a massacre and totally unsporting if the whole line did that. This is the most worrying post so far in this entire thread . And basically sums up the cowboy attitude being taken to killing quarry . If you want a challenge stick to clays . Dont treat these majestic birds with such contempt . PLEASE . I shoot pigeons from a hide and my best shots (the ones i get most satisfaction from ) are fast crossers that are 15 yds in front of the hide or directly above . I either miss them 100 % .or puff them and kill the 100 % . Very humane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPP Posted October 31, 2018 Report Share Posted October 31, 2018 47 minutes ago, Ultrastu said: This is the most worrying post so far in this entire thread . And basically sums up the cowboy attitude being taken to killing quarry . If you want a challenge stick to clays . Dont treat these majestic birds with such contempt . PLEASE . I shoot pigeons from a hide and my best shots (the ones i get most satisfaction from ) are fast crossers that are 15 yds in front of the hide or directly above . I either miss them 100 % .or puff them and kill the 100 % . Very humane Can you eat 15 yard shot pigeon? Or just breathe it in... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AYA117 Posted October 31, 2018 Report Share Posted October 31, 2018 5 minutes ago, PPP said: Can you eat 15 yard shot pigeon? Or just breathe it in... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted October 31, 2018 Report Share Posted October 31, 2018 3 hours ago, Perazzishot said: So re-ask the question, on a Driven pheasant shoot would you? 1. Only shoot what you are sure to kill? 2. Or what would test your ability? Because in my book if it's number 1 then why not shoot them on the ground in a pen if you want to kill everything you fire at? Is it because you think you look a good shot that every pheasant you shoot at you kill 🤔 Think how that is perceived by any watching member of the public....it would be described as a massacre and totally unsporting if the whole line did that. Personally, I only shoot at birds I'm sure are in range and therefore will be dead should I hit them in the shot pattern thrown, that tests my ability! I do not shoot at birds at a range I may kill them if a lucky pellet or two hits em! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted October 31, 2018 Report Share Posted October 31, 2018 1 hour ago, AYA117 said: Pattern plates, shot strings etc. do not change the fact that across the country 6 days a week throughout the season, pheasants are shot at the ranges that Perazzishot is talking about, so there must be a lot of luck floating about! Or could it be experienced shooters using the right cartridges Are they REALLY killing them at 90 yards? Have you ever pattern tested at long range? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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