Effectiveness of fibre wadded cartridges at distance

[wymberley]

40 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

And the rest of us poor mortals will stick with what we know, shoot to the best of our ability to our chosen range and thoroughly enjoy shooting a few pheasants.

Hopefully, we'll be able to. Ginger Cat has it in his sentence in brackets above. To kill is not cruel as cruelty is defined as the indifference to suffering

[Perazzishot]

Currently enroute to Yorkshire from Scotland for a day tomorrow so excuse the delay!

 

for reference wymberly I totally understand Cartridges, chokes etc etc Shot for over 30 years and keepered for many of them!! I said I don’t get fixated with them too busy running a business looking after 4 kids and of course enjoying my high bird game shooting, grouse, pigeons, ducks, geese and clays.

what questions have I ignored?

cheers

[motty]

1 hour ago, Perazzishot said:

Currently enroute to Yorkshire from Scotland for a day tomorrow so excuse the delay!

 

for reference wymberly I totally understand Cartridges, chokes etc etc Shot for over 30 years and keepered for many of them!! I said I don’t get fixated with them too busy running a business looking after 4 kids and of course enjoying my high bird game shooting, grouse, pigeons, ducks, geese and clays.

what questions have I ignored?

cheers

You totally understand cartridges, yet completely fell for the marketing bull on those Eley videos.

[GingerCat]

If George digweed says 70 is it. Ful stop. For repeatable performance. Than 70 is it, as far as I'm concerned that chap knows a bit about clay and game shooting and should be listened to. 

If on the other hand he said "yeah 90 yards all day long no worries just put that magic shot string in the air and it will do the rest" I'd bow to his knowledge but still wouldn't raise my gun to anything over 50 and only then if it was as a certain chap likes to say 'a doddler". 

 

Would you shoot a .243 at a deer at 600 yards if you only got 10% of what you shot at or would you get a bit closer, say 200? It's no different for shooting at extreme pheasants. 

Edited November 2, 2018 by GingerCat

[Perazzishot]

The top clay shots the likes of George are on the same shoots as I’m on guys, was shooting beside Dave Carrie last month actually on his latest video from Whitfield. 

I had the same loader as George last week at Whitfield was at Llechwydygarth last week same week DC made his video and we shot Jet Run the video comes out tomorrow enjoy guys proper extreme pheasants!

I’m shooting 20b tomorrow due to the lack of wind so not excepting much over 60yds so 28/4s you’ll all be happier with the tighter pattern a 20 throws.

Some folk really can’t except change and can be so dismissive the biggest problem with this group!

[GingerCat]

5 minutes ago, Perazzishot said:

The top clay shots the likes of George are on the same shoots as I’m on guys, was shooting beside Dave Carrie last month actually on his latest video from Whitfield. 

I had the same loader as George last week at Whitfield was at Llechwydygarth last week same week DC made his video and we shot Jet Run the video comes out tomorrow enjoy guys proper extreme pheasants!

I’m shooting 20b tomorrow due to the lack of wind so not excepting much over 60yds so 28/4s you’ll all be happier with the tighter pattern a 20 throws.

Some folk really can’t except change and can be so dismissive the biggest problem with this group!

So if i get George digweeds loader I too can bring down 90 yard game birds can I? If only I knew that years ago. 

[Perazzishot]

I sense the claws are out a little. GingerCat when all good debate falls down is when other parties begin to get personal and facetious.

It also says i’ve Got nothing further to add of any relevance! 😎

I was warned!

 

[Hamster]

1 hour ago, Perazzishot said:

The top clay shots the likes of George are on the same shoots as I’m on guys, was shooting beside Dave Carrie last month actually on his latest video from Whitfield. 

I had the same loader as George last week at Whitfield was at Llechwydygarth last week same week DC made his video and we shot Jet Run the video comes out tomorrow enjoy guys proper extreme pheasants!

I’m shooting 20b tomorrow due to the lack of wind so not excepting much over 60yds so 28/4s you’ll all be happier with the tighter pattern a 20 throws.

Some folk really can’t except change and can be so dismissive the biggest problem with this group!

170 pellets in that load so hopefully they'll all end up in the 30" pattern at 60 yards. 😌

I have more than a casual interest in shot gun ballistics and chokes, would be grateful if you could expand on how the 20 gauge throws a tighter pattern. 😂  

ps. before you go searching for something to copy paste let me just say that there is nothing above 70% (75% at a push) which is Full, also "choke" is a "performance" so in simple terms if for example you have a gun/load that throws 65% inside a 30" circle at 40 yards that is deemed to be 3/4 - regardless of what gauge it comes out of. 

Thanks for the exchanges and hope you have many good days ahead. 

 

Edited November 2, 2018 by Hamster

[GingerCat]

13 minutes ago, Perazzishot said:

I sense the claws are out a little. GingerCat when all good debate falls down is when other parties begin to get personal and facetious.

It also says i’ve Got nothing further to add of any relevance! 😎

I was warned!

 

Quite right. I'll end my piece with this

https://www.thefield.co.uk/shooting/shoot-pheasants-like-george-digweed-37727

As he puts it quite succinctly. 

Edited November 2, 2018 by GingerCat

[wymberley]

3 hours ago, Perazzishot said:

Currently enroute to Yorkshire from Scotland for a day tomorrow so excuse the delay!

 

for reference wymberly I totally understand Cartridges, chokes etc etc Shot for over 30 years and keepered for many of them!! I said I don’t get fixated with them too busy running a business looking after 4 kids and of course enjoying my high bird game shooting, grouse, pigeons, ducks, geese and clays.

what questions have I ignored?

cheers

This is but one of them:

This definition has kept us on the straight and narrow for decades. How would you re-word it?

"The maximum effective range of a gun in relation to a given kind of game is the greatest range at which it is reasonably certain that a clean kill will be made by a truly aimed shot."

As you are shooting for sport and pleasure, I think perhaps something akin to the highlighted above should be included but naturally please write whatever you see as both fitting and appropriate. I do appreciate your problem in responding though as as you've already indicated you aren't particularly au fait with your pattern performance at long range.

NB: Anybody thinking that the definition seems familiar, it is because it was wtitten by Gough Thomas and appeared in his book, 'Shotguns and Cartridges' which was published in 1963. In 55 years no one has yet been able to improve upon it. Consequently, any reply will be met with interest.

 

[JJsDad]

An interesting article in the link provided by GingerCat, above. The quote reproduced below refers to birds beyond 60 yrds, which pretty much sums up what the majority of members have been saying in one form or another since this thread started.

 

"Any higher and you are relying on luck and we need to question seriously whether luck should play any part when it comes to the humane dispatch of a living quarry. It’s all very well hitting clays at extreme range but they are not sentient beings.
Read more at https://www.thefield.co.uk/shooting/shoot-pheasants-like-george-digweed-37727#77X8wmc1wgTAyUo0.99"

[motty]

1 hour ago, Perazzishot said:

The top clay shots the likes of George are on the same shoots as I’m on guys, was shooting beside Dave Carrie last month actually on his latest video from Whitfield. 

I had the same loader as George last week at Whitfield was at Llechwydygarth last week same week DC made his video and we shot Jet Run the video comes out tomorrow enjoy guys proper extreme pheasants!

I’m shooting 20b tomorrow due to the lack of wind so not excepting much over 60yds so 28/4s you’ll all be happier with the tighter pattern a 20 throws.

Some folk really can’t except change and can be so dismissive the biggest problem with this group!

I watched the Whitfield video earlier. I didn't see any birds being killed at much over maybe 60 yards.

Perhaps it is just that you can't judge range.

A 90 yard pattern with the cartridges you are talking about just isn't realistic. The fact you won't acknowledge this is bemusing.

[Perazzishot]

Motty it wasn’t an extreme day they were standard partridges for Whitfield with few exceptions raising the bar.

Wait until you see Llechwydygarth tomorrow! 

[motty]

43 minutes ago, Perazzishot said:

Motty it wasn’t an extreme day they were standard partridges for Whitfield with few exceptions raising the bar.

Wait until you see Llechwydygarth tomorrow! 

If they are 90 yard birds I would expect to see a lot of missing and plenty of wounded birds. Some pheasants will be killed by lucky shots. I doubt I will be proved wrong.

[Salopian]

It seems to me that no matter how much we prove that shooting at extreme range is senseless we will always get idiots like Perazzishot who frankly , will just not listen .

His latest diatribe about the effectiveness of a 20 bore is  typical.

I started this thread because of comments from a High Bird Idiot. 

[Ultrastu]

Now thats a bit strong 😣

And i think perrazishot has brought a reasonable and well thought out argument to make his case .this thread is 12 pages long and has brought many members in to comment. While i agree with motty .id love to see myself proved wrong .after all the limits of what can be done are always being pushed further and further, its human nature and evolution. 

Stick to your guns mate .i know how it feels to go against the flow of general opinion .

[Stonepark]

15 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

Now thats a bit strong 😣

And i think perrazishot has brought a reasonable and well thought out argument to make his case .this thread is 12 pages long and has brought many members in to comment. While i agree with motty .id love to see myself proved wrong .after all the limits of what can be done are always being pushed further and further, its human nature and evolution. 

Stick to your guns mate .i know how it feels to go against the flow of general opinion .

I would be grateful if you could likewise confirm your support shooting rabbits at 50 yards with a sub 12ftlb springer with 5 inch groups at that distance, only killing 1 in 10 fired at as that is 'extreme pheasant shooters' argument in airgun terms.

[panoma1]

Leaving aside human performance, I have asked a few times, so I'll ask again, can someone (anyone?) explain how a standard, primed shotgun cartridge case, containing powder, wad and lead shot can be manufactured/loaded in order to kill birds consistently at over 70 and up to the 100yds/mtrs claimed?...........I genuinely can't see it!

[Smokersmith]

So ... here was the result. No surprise for most of us I'm sure.

A 36g Black Gold 4 put 12 pellets onto a 95cmx105cm sheet at a measured 90 yards through a backbored CG barrel with 3/4 choke. I circled the strikes to aid visibility.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jxqixhxv7z2ra7b/Photo 03-11-2018%2C 10 09 32.jpg?dl=0

I reckon there's about 191 pellets in that shell ... so if there's only 12 in the middle 1m2,  where's the other 179? I reckon the actual pattern must be some 25-30m2

Will one of those pellets kill a pheasant at 90 yards in the right place ... YES.

Is it down to skill or luck ... I know what I think ... 90 yards is a very long way away, and with a diving, curling, gliding cock bird, it will still take a lot of skill to get that massive dispersion of pellets in the right place .... will one actually strike in a lethal area? ... the gun has NO control over this. It's pure luck, and I'm not interested at all in blowing money on that.

Having shot on many of the shoots listed, I know that I have to understand the capability of my kit, before starting to believe that I'm testing myself, rather than relying on luck.

I hope this encourages PShot to either test his own kit, pull back his range, or at least admit that his 90 yard kills are luck.

I know the earlier pheasant dimensions will not draw a response.

[Ultrastu]

Just out of interest .

 Did you allow a fair amount of hold over for the (on level ?) 90 yd shot. ? 

Did you try a few different hold over positions. To find the centre of what would be a very wide pattern ? 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

16 minutes ago, Smokersmith said:

So ... here was the result. No surprise for most of us I'm sure.

A 36g Black Gold 4 put 12 pellets onto a 95cmx105cm sheet at a measured 90 yards through a backbored CG barrel with 3/4 choke. I circled the strikes to aid visibility.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jxqixhxv7z2ra7b/Photo 03-11-2018%2C 10 09 32.jpg?dl=0

I reckon there's about 191 pellets in that shell ... so if there's only 12 in the middle 1m2,  where's the other 179? I reckon the actual pattern must be some 25-30m2

Will one of those pellets kill a pheasant at 90 yards in the right place ... YES.

Is it down to skill or luck ... I know what I think ... 90 yards is a very long way away, and with a diving, curling, gliding cock bird, it will still take a lot of skill to get that massive dispersion of pellets in the right place .... will one actually strike in a lethal area? ... the gun has NO control over this. It's pure luck, and I'm not interested at all in blowing money on that.

Having shot on many of the shoots listed, I know that I have to understand the capability of my kit, before starting to believe that I'm testing myself, rather than relying on luck.

I hope this encourages PShot to either test his own kit, pull back his range, or at least admit that his 90 yard kills are luck.

I know the earlier pheasant dimensions will not draw a response.

Thanks for posting that, would love to see what PShot can come back with, definitely the black art of cartridge loading.

As ever happy to limit my own shooting to a range that I am confident in.

Having an open mind I accept that some can do these things but would like reasonable proof rather than just someones word!

[Hamster]

26 minutes ago, Smokersmith said:

So ... here was the result. No surprise for most of us I'm sure.

A 36g Black Gold 4 put 12 pellets onto a 95cmx105cm sheet at a measured 90 yards through a backbored CG barrel with 3/4 choke. I circled the strikes to aid visibility.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jxqixhxv7z2ra7b/Photo 03-11-2018%2C 10 09 32.jpg?dl=0

I reckon there's about 191 pellets in that shell ... so if there's only 12 in the middle 1m2,  where's the other 179? I reckon the actual pattern must be some 25-30m2

Will one of those pellets kill a pheasant at 90 yards in the right place ... YES.

Is it down to skill or luck ... I know what I think ... 90 yards is a very long way away, and with a diving, curling, gliding cock bird, it will still take a lot of skill to get that massive dispersion of pellets in the right place .... will one actually strike in a lethal area? ... the gun has NO control over this. It's pure luck, and I'm not interested at all in blowing money on that.

Having shot on many of the shoots listed, I know that I have to understand the capability of my kit, before starting to believe that I'm testing myself, rather than relying on luck.

I hope this encourages PShot to either test his own kit, pull back his range, or at least admit that his 90 yard kills are luck.

I know the earlier pheasant dimensions will not draw a response.

👏👏👌

Thanks for taking the time, Ultrastu's questions are very valid and yes it is possible to argue that the best way to be sure of the "centre" is to fire a good halfway up the middle of a pattern sheet covering the whole side of a very large  barn, that way hopefully at least half the pellets can be accounted for. 

The absolute best way is of course to dig down 90 yards into the earths core and fire upwards or somehow get a large enough barn size sheet suspended in mid air using drones, a very knowledgeable American shooter called Ted does stuff like that to explore airgun ballistics. 

FWIW I personally think that that would result in an even wider "pattern" because the effects of even moderate wind are wildly more telling past 60 yards when the pellets energies have been nearly spent whereas when doing "ground to ground" testing the pellets will be shielded from major buffeting and somewhat aided by gravity. 

You'll get a similar kill rate by shooting these birds off the hip. 

Edited November 3, 2018 by Hamster

[Ultrastu]

If its of any interest ? 

I can shoot 20b 32 grm no 5 black gold out of a 3/4 choke. At 90 yds or 70 

As that was the original distance quoted. Onto a large piece of paper. .

How about a few different ranges starting at 40  - 50 -60 -70 -80 -90 .

And we count how many pellets fall into a 6 inch circle ( a generous ,pheasant sized kill zone ) i allow hold over as the range increases .and i post the results here for all to see. ? 

[Hamster]

2 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

If its of any interest ? 

I can shoot 20b 32 grm no 5 black gold out of a 3/4 choke. At 90 yds or 70 

As that was the original distance quoted. Onto a large piece of paper. .

How about a few different ranges starting at 40  - 50 -60 -70 -80 -90 .

And we count how many pellets fall into a 6 inch circle ( a generous ,pheasant sized kill zone ) i allow hold over as the range increases .and i post the results here for all to see. ? 

Great, do you have a drone too as that would make it more valid ? 😋😜

[Ultrastu]

Just now, Hamster said:

👏👏👌

Thanks for taking the time, Ultrastu's questions are very valid and yes it is possible to argue that the best way to be sure of the "centre" is to fire a good halfway up the middle of a pattern sheet covering the whole side of a very large  barn, that way hopefully at least half the pellets can be accounted for. 

The absolute best way is of course to dig down 90 yards into the earths core and fire upwards or somehow get a large enough barn size sheet suspended in mid air using drones, a very knowledgeable American shooter called Ted does stuff like that to explore airgun ballistics. 

FWIW I personally think that that would result in an even wider "pattern" because the effects of even moderate wind are wildly more telling past 60 yards when the pellets energies have been nearly spent whereas when doing "ground to ground" testing the pellets will be shielded from major buffeting and somewhat aided by gravity. 

You'll get a similar kill rate by shooting these birds off the hip. 

Thats a very good point .

It can be argued that the pattern density fired along the ground will be tighter than the same range fired directly upwards. (As in a driven game shot ) 

Just now, Hamster said:

Great, do you have a drone too as that would make it more valid ? 😋😜

Whats the drone for. ?