Effectiveness of fibre wadded cartridges at distance

[Smokersmith]

Completely get the point about holdover.

The gun shoots a bit high, and I went for the top half of the sheet .. but TBH it's a small target at that distance.

That was all I was prepared to invest into a rather obvious result, but it'd be great to see what others can do.

[islandgun]

Im probably missing something here but given that smokersmith found that only 12 hit the target how many would actually be around as a pheasant flew past, allowing for the shot column and the fact that not all pellets arrive at the same time.. 

[Ultrastu]

None ? 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

1 hour ago, Smokersmith said:

Completely get the point about holdover.

The gun shoots a bit high, and I went for the top half of the sheet .. but TBH it's a small target at that distance.

That was all I was prepared to invest into a rather obvious result, but it'd be great to see what others can do.

It is appreciated, I think we need someone to invest their time in papering a barn door and then measuring out 60, 70, 80, and 90 yds.

[Hamster]

Here is a video showing a fairly high bird being shot, obviously the title was not written by the shooter himself but I wonder what people think was the actual range of the bird at 4.29 (helps if you freeze the frame) ? 

Nowhere near 90 is my guess. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJ1nQ_OfXIk

Edited November 3, 2018 by Hamster

[Zapp]

Leave the name calling out of it please.

[wymberley]

Whoever is going to do whatever, I'd be inclined to make haste slowly. This is not your average pattern test where you can get by with a 40 to 48" plate. As Smoker has demonstrated, it's odds on that you're not going to get any sense out of a 90 yard pattern. Would it not be better to try, say, 75 yards in an attempt to define the pattern centre and work around that first on the grounds that if this reflects a disaster we can then be certain that at a greater distance it'll turn into a catastrophe. One 'plate' will suffice as the hit rate will be minimal and can be patched out as as we discovered earlier on in this thread that one shot is meaningless and 5 are necessary for anything reliable.

It might also be prudent if it could be agreed beforehand what the number of strikes is that are required to reasonably ensure a clean kill.

[motty]

1 hour ago, islandgun said:

Im probably missing something here but given that smokersmith found that only 12 hit the target how many would actually be around as a pheasant flew past, allowing for the shot column and the fact that not all pellets arrive at the same time.. 

As has already been said, what is put on paper is the best case scenario, as all pellets land within milliseconds of each other.

[wymberley]

17 minutes ago, motty said:

As has already been said, what is put on paper is the best case scenario, as all pellets land within milliseconds of each other.

Using our "extreme" 4s with 3/4 choke at 50 metres the last arrives some 45ms after the first.

[Stonepark]

40 minutes ago, islandgun said:

Im probably missing something here but given that smokersmith found that only 12 hit the target how many would actually be around as a pheasant flew past, allowing for the shot column and the fact that not all pellets arrive at the same time.. 

Given the cartridge to kill ratios quoted elsewhere for pellet hits for 10 shots..... 0,0,1,0,1,0,0,0,1,0 or thereabouts, with only 1 hitting something vital.

[islandgun]

cheers

[Ultrastu]

1 hour ago, wymberley said:

Whoever is going to do whatever, I'd be inclined to make haste slowly. This is not your average pattern test where you can get by with a 40 to 48" plate. As Smoker has demonstrated, it's odds on that you're not going to get any sense out of a 90 yard pattern. Would it not be better to try, say, 75 yards in an attempt to define the pattern centre and work around that first on the grounds that if this reflects a disaster we can then be certain that at a greater distance it'll turn into a catastrophe. One 'plate' will suffice as the hit rate will be minimal and can be patched out as as we discovered earlier on in this thread that one shot is meaningless and 5 are necessary for anything reliable.

It might also be prudent if it could be agreed beforehand what the number of strikes is that are required to reasonably ensure a clean kill.

Id surgest for a kill shot. How about 4 hits inside a 6 inch circle?  .which i think is being generous to say the least .

And i guess the way to do it is have a 6 inch circle plate and try to find an area on the paper that you can get 4 pellets in it. 

Sound fair. ? 

 

 

Edited November 3, 2018 by Ultrastu

[Walker570]

On 30/10/2018 at 23:55, Perazzishot said:

Just picked up on this.

I only shoot extreme pheasants now. Which is defined as over 50 yards.

I can generally shoot between 5:1 and 9:1 depending on wind. Have shot killed cleanly pheasants leaving 90 yard (measured) banks using 42/4s. Usual load is 36/4s and I shoot with teams that all can consistently kill birds at this height. It is harder with fibre and a few manufacturers have added a plastic gas tight seal to help us out. Until you have been to an extreme pheasant shoot you will struggle to understand! Dave Carrie has a video coming out on Saturday of Llechwydygarth where I shot last week where many of these birds were above 100 yds. Other videos would include Whitfield, Mulgrave, Brigands, Molland, Warter Priory, Drumlanrig, Hawnby where you can see these birds being killed cleanly.

You can also check George Digweed smashing a clay at 135 yards on you tube.

Have also witnessed a top clay shot smashing (not chipping) a clay 3 shots for 3 at a measured 95 metres as a rising teal climbing 30 yards and dropping next to the trap, he shot it up, top and on the drop!

 

Average 7 to 1 then  I wonder how many of the 7 went away with a pellet or two in them to suffer and hopefully die later, missed by pickers up.  You can prove your competance as a shot at clays at this height if you wish but to be honest and forthright I think shooting at live birds at that height is sick. No other word for it in my dictionary.

[wymberley]

1 hour ago, Ultrastu said:

Id surgest for a kill shot. How about 4 hits inside a 6 inch circle?  .which i think is being generous to say the least .

And i guess the way to do it is have a 6 inch circle plate and try to find an area on the paper that you can get 4 pellets in it. 

Sound fair. ? 

 

 

Without a load of waffle, there's two ways of assessing this. One is our way via the Ballistic Research Laboratory and the other, the American way via BASC. Fortunately for us, they're both in agreement. I don't think a True Cylinder choke will come into this so we're looking at the central 20" area of the pattern as being the only effecive area. Yes, this will change if we're looking at cocks only but I can well imagine that if it's airborne these guys are going to shoot at it so we'll consider hens as well. Both studies mentioned above agree that 6 pellets on average - which in turn ensure the necessary strike rate with every shot -  are required to be as sure as we reasonably can that a kill will result from a truly aimed shot. Therefore, we need 60 pellets in that central 20". So, yep, your 4 strikes is good to go but in order to achieve at least that number with every shot the higher figure is necessary. (With the gun and cartridge combination that you mentioned earlier, you'd start to lose it at c50 yards.)

I wouldn't bother with the second part. At your 50 yards above, you can expect to be able to drop between 7 and 10 5" discs in that pattern without overlapping and without covering a single pellet. You can well imagine therefore what you're going to get at 75 yards -  but you never know your luck.

[Ultrastu]

I think we all know its a pretty futile experiment. 

But like smokersmiths target above its nice to see it inreality .

Thats why i thought the extend the range upwards in 10 yd intervals would show how quickly patterns open up with range. .

My guess is that the patten will fail the 4 hits in 6 inch at about the 50 yd mark .with those carts and 3/4  choke .

I dont have a full. 

[hakapiken]

Here is A test i did. Homeload. Only standard components. Longshot powder,  Cheddite hull, cx2000 primer, B&P z2m 21 wad, 34 g of Us 6 shot (2,8mm) at 65,5 yards. Have shot A lot of crows at long range with this one up to 70 yards. I think after 70 yard It’s mostly luck.

 

[GingerCat]

13 minutes ago, hakapiken said:

Here is A test i did. Homeload. Only standard components. Longshot powder,  Cheddite hull, cx2000 primer, B&P z2m 21 wad, 34 g of Us 6 shot (2,8mm) at 65,5 yards. Have shot A lot of crows at long range with this one up to 70 yards. I think after 70 yard It’s mostly luck.

 

I think that's as good as you can hope for at that range and your right, 70+ will be mostly luck.

[widgeon man]

Interesting article...... the only bit that interested me and goes with my findings is what smoker smith put up....

Perazzi shot who are you exactly?! ....I have had the pleasure to shoot with many fine shots, train with world and Olympic champions, shoot professionally, win a few things along the way...... even shot the odd pheasant. I have tested ammunition in collaboration with manufacturers and also happen to have Perazzi’s....one pair which used to belong to Mr. Ward too. 60,70 yards I have no problem with, especially with correct load and more importantly skill. However reliable kills at 90 yards on a curling cock bird?? I call bull****! 😂😂😂😂

Only thing I have killed at 90 yards paced was wounded geese trying to flee decoys with 2-1/4oz 3’s through a x full 10 bore......

[hakapiken]

2 hours ago, GingerCat said:

I think that's as good as you can hope for at that range and your right, 70+ will be mostly luck.

Pefectly usable pattern but you have to be spot on to Hit anything at these ranges. 

J.A.

[shalfordninja33]

10 hours ago, Ultrastu said:

Thats a very good point .

It can be argued that the pattern density fired along the ground will be tighter than the same range fired directly upwards. (As in a driven game shot ) 

Whats the drone for. ? 

Droning on is what this thread is.

 People can shoot paper all day and quote numbers. This threads gone from interesting to boring. 

[Perazzishot]

The 90 yards has been picked up on I originally quoted  extreme being over 50 and up to 90! 

This article was read by a few today including keepers from a couple of shoots mentioned in this thread. The concencus was that until you have attended and witnessed the skill and the quality of the shooting on these they no-one would believe what they see on a regular basis!

it was agreed that any poor team can shoot at 10:1 and is witnessed on a regular basis on average birds,  but we have to remember we all start somewhere in game shooting! 

Also no real difference from extreme days to normal days on wounding and injuring except the distance they fall behind the line of guns. A winged bird is a winged bird.

most of our team and keepers would speak to a gun if they wete constantly shooting stuff for the sake of killing!

we all agreed continuing the debate would achieve nothing more going forward!

so please guys/gals enjoy your shooting however you wish to shoot or be tested! 

Thanks for the input! Life is too short to get her up over what gives each their enjoyment!

Straight powder everyone 💥💥💥

 

[motty]

12 minutes ago, shalfordninja33 said:

Droning on is what this thread is.

 People can shoot paper all day and quote numbers. This threads gone from interesting to boring. 

So you think there is no value in pattern testing, or matching a load to a certain quarry at a certain range?

[motty]

13 minutes ago, Perazzishot said:

The 90 yards has been picked up on I originally quoted  extreme being over 50 and up to 90! 

This article was read by a few today including keepers from a couple of shoots mentioned in this thread. The concencus was that until you have attended and witnessed the skill and the quality of the shooting on these they no-one would believe what they see on a regular basis!

it was agreed that any poor team can shoot at 10:1 and is witnessed on a regular basis on average birds,  but we have to remember we all start somewhere in game shooting! 

Also no real difference from extreme days to normal days on wounding and injuring except the distance they fall behind the line of guns. A winged bird is a winged bird.

most of our team and keepers would speak to a gun if they wete constantly shooting stuff for the sake of killing!

we all agreed continuing the debate would achieve nothing more going forward!

so please guys/gals enjoy your shooting however you wish to shoot or be tested! 

Thanks for the input! Life is too short to get her up over what gives each their enjoyment!

Straight powder everyone 💥💥💥

 

But that is where you are wrong. A wounded bird at 40 yards is more likely to have been hit with more pellets than a 70-90 yard bird, and therefore be more likely to be picked. One of your extreme birds may be unlucky enough to catch a pellet in the rear end without anyone noticing.

 

[Perazzishot]

Utter bull**** Motty a rear end shot pheasant occurs at all ranges! 

There are pellets outside of every sweet spot of a pattern at any range that can cause the same injuries! 

Ask a team of pickers up! 

Look at plucked and dressed Game you won’t find many with with huge pellet strike which was needed to kill them. Those that are full of pellets (pillowcased. Centre of pattern) are destined for the bin anyhow as they are not fit for consumption!

My last word

[motty]

55 minutes ago, Perazzishot said:

Utter ******** Motty a rear end shot pheasant occurs at all ranges! 

There are pellets outside of every sweet spot of a pattern at any range that can cause the same injuries! 

Ask a team of pickers up! 

Look at plucked and dressed Game you won’t find many with with huge pellet strike which was needed to kill them. Those that are full of pellets (pillowcased. Centre of pattern) are destined for the bin anyhow as they are not fit for consumption!

My last word

You are not particularly good at reading what people have written.