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How far will a shotgun kill game.

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    DC is Gamebores field expert and often turns up with unprinted cartridges and cartridges with test load stamped on them.

    Often DC does not know what they are but is paid/sponsored to give feedback on cartridges tested. The ones he finds kill well at extreme range will then be provided for 2 o3 extreme shoots. This recently has been a 44g 4 I am lead to believe!

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    That awkward moment when even actual photo's of patterns which prove the inevitability and influence of luck prove futile. 

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    8 minutes ago, Perazzishot said:

    I'm not getting embroiled in this again.

     

    But I'm going to ask a simple question to all these "cartridges experts" how many of you have consistently shot on, picked up on, beated on or attended any extreme shoots?

    If you saw birds being killed consistently over 60 yard and upwards would it change your mind?

     

    60 yards is not an issue. I have killed enough pigeons at that range. 50% more than that, is. Like I have said before, there is no doubt in my mind that spectacular looking shots happen all the time, with 1 or 2 pellet strikes. Unfortunately, there will be plenty hit with 1 or 2 pellets (undetected by the gun below) that will fly on and not be picked. Judging by how thick and fast the birds come, the waiting guns would not keep their eyes on an apparently missed bird, for long.

    15 minutes ago, Perazzishot said:

    DC is Gamebores field expert and often turns up with unprinted cartridges and cartridges with test load stamped on them.

    Often DC does not know what they are but is paid/sponsored to give feedback on cartridges tested. The ones he finds kill well at extreme range will then be provided for 2 o3 extreme shoots. This recently has been a 44g 4 I am lead to believe!

    That is fine, but what makes those cartridges different /special. There are only so many variables to be played with.

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    18 minutes ago, Perazzishot said:

    The moment smart ***** posters can't answer a simple question and resort back to squares of paper to support their arguments! 😘

    If resorting to factual realities makes you upset then call me a smart posterior. 

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    pickers up job Motty which like I said before can be anything up to 1 km behind on extreme shoots with packs of dogs and sweep back to the guns. Number 4 shot is preferred as the striking damage and bleed out usually proves very quickly fatal. These shoots will instruct and guide on cartridge choice and supply suitable loads if required.

    As on the other thread the original claim I pointed out was extreme birds are killed/classed as over 50 yards and they are killed up to 90 yards. The constant reference to 90 is what is being used to drive this argument. Videos, personal experience, and independent clay shoots all say that a well practiced shooter can hit and kill targets at 90 yards. You have actually just agreed with me in a round about way.

     

    A square bit of paper which I have brought up a few times does little to represent shot pattern on a flying bird once you get past 40 yards. 

    As a matter of interest I was invited to a shoot yesterday, i only fired 14 shots all day on a 150 bird day as the team were happy to shoot 15-25 yard pheasants all day so the drives were provided accordingly and I actually saw more poor shooting than I have for a long time the average age of the team was 60 and they'd shot like this all their lives and they thought they were high birds. They were in some cases using 36/5s. They were breaking wings, feathers out the backend runners all over the place. Most were shooting s/s. The few I did shoot were ones they had left as they were too high to kill. Despite me killing 10 pheasants dead they were all deemed as lucky shots as at 50 yards a shotgun no longer has a pattern and it would be preferred if i didn't shoot them at the height i was. They were 40 yards high maximum. 

    So we have perception and reality and we will all disagree at some point. 

     

     

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    7 hours ago, welshwarrior said:

    So do you count people Dave Carrier who have custom loaded cartridges in bespoke guns and show it done on film or do they also pay for special effects?

    no what you see on film is what happens, but I watch all dave carrie films and he generally uses black golds in his mk38/ mk60 choked 3/4 3/4 both barrels    unless gamebore send him some heavier loads to test and most of them birds are around 60 65 yards that he brings down which is perfectly doable but I said 70 yards and over is getting into silly territory

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    19 minutes ago, Perazzishot said:

    pickers up job Motty which like I said before can be anything up to 1 km behind on extreme shoots with packs of dogs and sweep back to the guns. Number 4 shot is preferred as the striking damage and bleed out usually proves very quickly fatal. These shoots will instruct and guide on cartridge choice and supply suitable loads if required.

    As on the other thread the original claim I pointed out was extreme birds are killed/classed as over 50 yards and they are killed up to 90 yards. The constant reference to 90 is what is being used to drive this argument. Videos, personal experience, and independent clay shoots all say that a well practiced shooter can hit and kill targets at 90 yards. You have actually just agreed with me in a round about way.

     

    A square bit of paper which I have brought up a few times does little to represent shot pattern on a flying bird once you get past 40 yards. 

    As a matter of interest I was invited to a shoot yesterday, i only fired 14 shots all day on a 150 bird day as the team were happy to shoot 15-25 yard pheasants all day so the drives were provided accordingly and I actually saw more poor shooting than I have for a long time the average age of the team was 60 and they'd shot like this all their lives and they thought they were high birds. They were in some cases using 36/5s. They were breaking wings, feathers out the backend runners all over the place. Most were shooting s/s. The few I did shoot were ones they had left as they were too high to kill. Despite me killing 10 pheasants dead they were all deemed as lucky shots as at 50 yards a shotgun no longer has a pattern and it would be preferred if i didn't shoot them at the height i was. They were 40 yards high maximum. 

    So we have perception and reality and we will all disagree at some point. 

     

     

    I will agree that there are some terrible shots that shoot on an average game shoot. Conversely, I would imagine that it is only well above average shots that would attend a high bird shoot.

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    58 minutes ago, Perazzishot said:

    I'm not getting embroiled in this again.

     

    But I'm going to ask a simple question to all these "cartridges experts" how many of you have consistently shot on, picked up on, beated on or attended any extreme shoots?

    If you saw birds being killed consistently over 60 yard and upwards would it change your mind?

     

    Let's quickly gloss over the fact that you probably are and move on to your final question. Most certainly; when faced with the evidence witnessed with ones' own eyes it would be impossible to do otherwise. Talking of questions, there's one you never did answer in the other thread. Yes, as was mentioned you will see wounded birds at a 'normal' driven shoot. However, here it will in all probability be down to an inaccurate shot for whatever reason and is highly unlikely that it was caused by the Gun being 'outgunned'. Should this be the case and one is overstretched on one of these "ultimate" shoots what should be a sporting activity ceases to be so. A wounded bird at low level is unintentional and can be corrected with practice: At high level in addition to the marksmanship element it could also be considered to be foreseeable collateral damage which is assessed to be of no consequence and due to the birds being beyond the capability of the gun  - please note the lower case 'g'. This in turn can easily be defined as 'indifference to suffering', ie, cruelty.

    On the other thread I gave a well known definition of 'maximum effective range'. This is based on reason and ensures that there is sufficient pattern density/pellet energy on each and every shot. Failure to ensure this as far as is reasonably possible takes the word 'sportsmanship' out of the equation and has its place taken by 'cruelty'. Consequently, could I refer you back to that original thread and ask you yet again for an answer to my question:

    This definition has kept us on the straight and narrow for decades. How would you re-word it?

    "The maximum effective range of a gun in relation to a given kind of game is the greatest range at which it is reasonably certain that a clean kill will be made by a truly aimed shot."

    I think it is prudent to ask because all the evidence I have seen is that there is insufficient pellet density to meet the definition given above. Given the evidence that this is not the case would alter opinions on the matter, but until something reasonable is forthcoming you're going to continue to be up against it.

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    Wymberley

    And that has held us in good stead over the generations. I could take you to watch a young man who I must say shoots consistently and I mean 3:1 and less and he leaves me in awe of his capabilities and he keeps pushing that marker season upon season. To witness is a joy, but he has done by sheer volume of shooting amongst a good few others I have watched, I'm not at that level but getting there. 

    I think modern day cartridges are the biggest factor and having been trialing some 40/4 from George over the last few shoots I too have been very impressed in the killing power of these.Had a lot more dead in the air shots with proper crumpling effect.

    George has built his cartridges and they are used a lot in the shooting we do as they are almost ineffective out to 35 yards as  there is very little pattern to that point and he is holding the pattern in the cup. Having opened up a 40/4 last night the wad only has 2 petals.

     

    Having started shooting extreme birds using RC's I'm well aware of what you are saying about effective kills as I and other guns could see and hear my birds being hit not falling but pickers were retrieving them, it was at this point another gun gave me a slab of George's cartridges, everything was the same, speed, recoil but the difference was birds were now being killed dead in the air. I couldn't believe the difference between 2 36/4 cartridges. I will also confess when I originally watched these other guns pulling down ducks, pheasants and partridge that previously I would have said out of range I knew i had entered another league.

    This is why I'm asking if anyone commenting has been to one of these shoots. 6 years ago I would have agreed with everything being said. I've shot for 34 years and an ex keeper so certainly not naive when it comes to shooting and average around 70,000 cartridges a year currently.

     

    Edited by Perazzishot

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    36 minutes ago, wymberley said:

    Let's quickly gloss over the fact that you probably are and move on to your final question. Most certainly; when faced with the evidence witnessed with ones' own eyes it would be impossible to do otherwise. Talking of questions, there's one you never did answer in the other thread. Yes, as was mentioned you will see wounded birds at a 'normal' driven shoot. However, here it will in all probability be down to an inaccurate shot for whatever reason and is highly unlikely that it was caused by the Gun being 'outgunned'. Should this be the case and one is overstretched on one of these "ultimate" shoots what should be a sporting activity ceases to be so. A wounded bird at low level is unintentional and can be corrected with practice: At high level in addition to the marksmanship element it could also be considered to be foreseeable collateral damage which is assessed to be of no consequence and due to the birds being beyond the capability of the gun  - please note the lower case 'g'. This in turn can easily be defined as 'indifference to suffering', ie, cruelty.

    On the other thread I gave a well known definition of 'maximum effective range'. This is based on reason and ensures that there is sufficient pattern density/pellet energy on each and every shot. Failure to ensure this as far as is reasonably possible takes the word 'sportsmanship' out of the equation and has its place taken by 'cruelty'. Consequently, could I refer you back to that original thread and ask you yet again for an answer to my question:

    This definition has kept us on the straight and narrow for decades. How would you re-word it?

    "The maximum effective range of a gun in relation to a given kind of game is the greatest range at which it is reasonably certain that a clean kill will be made by a truly aimed shot."

    I think it is prudent to ask because all the evidence I have seen is that there is insufficient pellet density to meet the definition given above. Given the evidence that this is not the case would alter opinions on the matter, but until something reasonable is forthcoming you're going to continue to be up against it.

    👍👍

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    1 minute ago, gotgcoalman said:

    Do you have any "George"  carts left?

    Can you split one if you do so we can see how the differ?

    you live round the corner from him, pop down and get some.

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    1 hour ago, Perazzishot said:

    George has built his cartridges and they are used a lot in the shooting we do as they are almost ineffective out to 35 yards as  there is very little pattern to that point and he is holding the pattern in the cup. Having opened up a 40/4 last night the wad only has 2 petals.

     

    Having started shooting extreme birds using RC's I'm well aware of what you are saying about effective kills as I and other guns could see and hear my birds being hit not falling but pickers were retrieving them, it was at this point another gun gave me a slab of George's cartridges, everything was the same, speed, recoil but the difference was birds were now being killed dead in the air. I couldn't believe the difference between 2 36/4 cartridges.

    Never say never, maybe we are all about to witness a once in a lifetime event whereby a little obscure enthusiast has managed to concoct a product thought hitherto impossible even by companies specialising in ammo production for hundreds of years. What is the name of these things ? Presumably since you (and others in the super squad) had been shooting 70-80 yarders with reggler shells already 😁  then these are bound to make 90 yarders practically a mere formality, 150 yards here we come. 

    Judging by George keeping his promise (not) to send me some clay shells to test I doubt he'd entertain sending me a slab any time soon. 😜 😑

     

    Edited by Hamster

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    3 minutes ago, Hamster said:

    The answer to defy physics lay in two petals. ✌️ 

    You really are getting tiresome.

    But knowing what I do about you from other posters and people on the clay circuit I'm not the only one who has an opinion on you Hamster. 

     

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    2 hours ago, Perazzishot said:

    I'm not getting embroiled in this again.

     

    But I'm going to ask a simple question to all these "cartridges experts" how many of you have consistently shot on, picked up on, beated on or attended any extreme shoots?

    If you saw birds being killed consistently over 60 yard and upwards would it change your mind?

     

    I think the problem is the word consistently.

    Ratios of 6 or 10 to 1 don’t scream of consistency. Especially from practiced shots spending 50+ days or more shooting  over a slab a day.

    Why are the ratios SO poor? Yes ... they’re a long way away and very difficult. BUT the facts are simply that there are huge gaps in patterns that means that luck becomes involved. That’s the whole picture that you may choose to agree or ignore.

    I know many who pattern their guns are awesome shots at distance .... because they know what there kit can and can’t do.

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    14 minutes ago, Perazzishot said:

    you live round the corner from him, pop down and get some.

    It was a simple request.

    If we could see the internals.

    powder load/shot cup then I would fabricate some to prove or dispel the 90 yard theory.

    so are you telling me Asda sell them?

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    Pattern fails before power. This has stood the test of time and if it was easily achievable (or even just achievable to have pattern remaining at range with power fading out before it became an ineffective pattern) then you can bet your house that the big cart makers would have produced "80 yard"  shells and they would be selling like hot cakes for all those macho men that need range to justify a shot

    I'm not one for the mythical shot string as we are talking milliseconds and the pattern plate gives a very good indication of down range effect. 

    Under 60 with a tight choke and proportionate  load with a skilled shooter then yes all day.

    Over that and you are in the realm of lady luck which is not something I entertain. Yes a single pellet retains sufficent energy at range to kill if in the right place but to be sure of such a hit you need a lot of pellets and that is something we do not achieve, even with modern carts.

    Mr digweed says the same or very similar in an article i posted before. he is quite literally a multi world champion clay and outstanding game shot with all the shooting someone can handle. Why argue over it, the odd 90 yard lucky shot with  50g no 4 load? It's that such an achievement over a 50 yard bird with 36g of 5 or 6? How many birds are wounded and suffer that wouldn't be if the gun dialed down the range from silly to  realistic? 

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    16 minutes ago, Smokersmith said:

    I think the problem is the word consistently.

    Ratios of 6 or 10 to 1 don’t scream of consistency. Especially from practiced shots spending 50+ days or more shooting  over a slab a day.

    Why are the ratios SO poor? Yes ... they’re a long way away and very difficult. BUT the facts are simply that there are huge gaps in patterns that means that luck becomes involved. That’s the whole picture that you may choose to agree or ignore.

    I know many who pattern their guns are awesome shots at distance .... because they know what there kit can and can’t do.

    just about spot on 

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    13 minutes ago, gotgcoalman said:

    It was a simple request.

    If we could see the internals.

    powder load/shot cup then I would fabricate some to prove or dispel the 90 yard theory.

    so are you telling me Asda sell them?

    http://propercartridges.com

    He's in Consett, if you give him a call and arrange to visit the factory you will never leave once he gets chatting to another cartridge fanatic, if you take some home loads with you he will chromo them for you too. He will give you a great insight to his philosophy of what he builds and how he and why he does. He is also a very very good high bird shot. 

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    20 minutes ago, gotgcoalman said:

    It was a simple request.

    If we could see the internals.

    powder load/shot cup then I would fabricate some to prove or dispel the 90 yard theory.

    so are you telling me Asda sell them?

    No need to.

    "Having opened up a 40/4 last night the wad only has 2 petals."

    "your painstaking dissection of a cartridge is a pointless and worthless excercise."

    Such a contradiction in terms from the same source negates the validity

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