14 million in poverty

[12gauge82]

43 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Is it a problem ? 

When has there been a time, world wide , when this wasnt the way things have been?
Think of a time, a region, or a race, when there was true equality.
It never happened, maybe in some communist wet dream, but the reality of it is, when weve tried to level the playing field, its  usually ended up with a bloodbath, before eventually reverting back to the same old system.
And theres a reason for that, its because its a STABLE system, I dont like it or agree with it, but mans inherent ability to destroy himself is largely kept in check by it, we crave leaders.
So those leaders are going to exercise one of mans other less fragrant qualities, abuse of power.
We see it EVERY DAY , we moan about it, and dream of fixing it, then go back to sleep and vote the next bunch in.
Rinse and repeat.

The difference, and this is what this debate is all about, is we believe WE live in this enlightened liberal generation, WE can fix these issues .
We wring our hands at the worlds injustices , allay our guilt with rhetoric , and promise ourselves that tomorrow we WILL do something about it.
Then we go back to sleep.

Can't argue with that other than to say it doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for better.

[Hamster]

11 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

I was just merely following your lead 

😘 Thanks for gathering up all that in one post but it all kinda works against you !! 🤓 🤔 

I am the one who repeatedly asks people where they got the numbers from for their self serving assumptions !! 

[Whatmuff]

2 hours ago, amateur said:

Ok so she's now single and looking for somewhere to live. She can't afford anywhere in the South East. Rewulf says she can move to Sheffield where she can afford but travel to Bromley? Are you for real?? Do you have any idea of the living costs in the Southeast? Or the shortage of nurses in the NHS? And you can't put two and two together? And Chelsea? Really! So the whole south of England goes up in value to Chelsea prices then that's fine? Push everyone else out and move in the rich because that's the way it is? Let's hope the hospitals in the South East can be sustained with staff.

If you price everyone out of a District/County then how do you suppose you find people for the lower paid jobs? I grew up in Kent and my entire family is there, so I should just move North instead of the Government dealing with the issue and inflating the housing market for investors. 

 

[Hamster]

49 minutes ago, bostonmick said:

I don't need to interview people. If you lived in boston you could see for yourself the town is full everyday of unemployed and single mothers. The jobcentre entrance is like a drinking and smoking club. On a recent trip to the local tip with a trailer load of waste I got talking to the weighbridge guy and he works 5.5 days a week for just under £400. A week has three children he is the only one in his street working but the only one who watches free view.all the others have one of them dishes on the wall. However I would not really count it as an interview. Just someone a bit peed over the system. Or do you think he should give up any self respect and join them

Thanks, so it's based on your immediate experience with one low wage hard working man, the job centre and the local tip, in other words about as representative of the overall picture of reality as a drop of water in a lake. 

I never forget a cartoon mocking Arthur Scargill fighting mine closures back in the day when a tiny caption in the corner showed a sign at the entrance to a mine which read : It's the pits. Them papers were corrupt even then and truth be known probably a hundred years before that, subliminal brainwashing and demonising anyone who dares speak for the common man. 

[Whatmuff]

28 minutes ago, yod dropper said:

I'm okay. I'm also living in poverty by most of the definitions. I think a sense of proportion is missing, your extreme poverty is not nearly of the same magnitude as that of people around the world, such as those literally, as in actually, who are born on and live on the streets of say, India. A good test would be to see if places would readily be swapped. If not, then I don't think they can be the same. Perhaps, there is poverty, extreme poverty, really extreme poverty, even more extreme poverty than that through to the poorest of all.

Er, no. Below inflation perhaps but not a freeze. Family in 3 diverse areas of the public sector and there has been no pay freeze.

I'll take the left wing Guardian as my source if that's okay. 3.1% in the last 12 months.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/oct/16/uk-pay-growth-unemployment

What are you on about? Here are the historical rates. 

http://inflation.iamkate.com/

That'll do for now.

 https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2018/sep/10/civil-servants-pay-stagnated-decade-real-rise

Well this article from your source "The Guardian" says otherwise to the freeze that never happened or wages not being worse off from inflation. Or by me infact who has received a wage that has been frozen. I can't even give you the time of day.

That'll do for now.

Edited November 17, 2018 by Whatmuff

[Mungler]

58 minutes ago, Hamster said:

How does moving away from Bromley help anyway ? Surely that would entail higher travel costs and who says moving XX minutes away would mean they get to buy a house for what their mortgage lenders will lend them ? It's not exactly asking for a helicopter to Chelsea is it. 

 

IIRC home ownership in Germany is about 50%, France 60% and the UK is the highest pushing 70%.

But both countries, Germany 18% and France 16%, have lower poverty than the UK.

 

[Hamster]

Just now, Mungler said:

 

IIRC home ownership in Germany is about 50%, France 60% and the UK is the highest pushing 70%.

But both countries, Germany 18% and France 16%, have lower poverty than the UK.

 

So ? Having watched documentaries on German people's habit of renting it means nothing beyond the fact we differ culturally on many things but I bet they can afford to rent. 

[Mungler]

Just now, Hamster said:

So ? Having watched documentaries on German people's habit of renting it means nothing beyond the fact we differ culturally on many things but I bet they can afford to rent. 

Eh? They can afford to rent but not buy?

 

[Hamster]

Just now, Mungler said:

Eh? They can afford to rent but not buy?

 

Both, the programme explained why they felt under no pressure to buy. Owning a home here has long been seen as a way of ensuring we have enough to pay for our old age and funeral ! Need I remind people of Maxwell, Green and his ilk robbing us even of our pensions ? 

[Rewulf]

5 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Can't argue with that other than to say it doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for better.

Of course, everyone (for the most part) wants things to be better, make the world a better place.

But capitalism doesnt work like that, you have to climb over others to get ahead, and pretty much world wide , this is the system we are stuck with.
But thats not the point, when I hear a report about poverty, its usual a casual manipulation to achieve something.
Usually something that is NOT beneficial to those people at the bottom of the social pile.

Ill give you an example, our good friend george soros.
He invests billions in 'projects' that are designed to promote liberal agendas, equality and to combat poverty, a man of peace ?
His Open society orgs have fingers in many pies, but yet his profits rise expotentially .
Good business man , or master manipulator of markets ?
He invest heavily in black lives matter, antifa, anti Brexit and pro migrant foundations, some of the most divisive and de stabilising forces affecting western society.
Man of peace, just wants everyone to get along ?
Not really, he plays on markets losing value, not gains.

But its the casual manipulation of peoples thoughts and actions that are the real issue.
Whilst we think we are doing the right thing, the upper echelons are reaping the rewards.

[Mungler]

Just now, Hamster said:

Both, the programme explained why they felt under no pressure to buy. Owning a home here has long been seen as a way of ensuring we have enough to pay for our old age and funeral ! Need I remind people of Maxwell, Green and his ilk robbing us even of our pensions ? 

Random.

So they’ve got plenty of money to rent (your words) but not to buy (which is just like renting but after a number of years you get to own it) 😀

 

[Rewulf]

9 minutes ago, Hamster said:

Them papers were corrupt even then and truth be known probably a hundred years before that, subliminal brainwashing and demonising anyone who dares speak for the common man.

Yet still we read them, and reports about poverty based on THEIR interpretation of poverty.

[Hamster]

4 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Random.

So they’ve got plenty of money to rent (your words) but not to buy (which is just like renting but after a number of years you get to own it) 😀

 

It's only "random" when it doesn't suit you. Yes they can go through their entire lives renting because they feel under no pressure that the land lord can just keep raising the price and for all you and I know it's considerably cheaper than buying. If you're  interested I am sure you can dig up the old documentaries on them. 

3 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Yet still we read them, and reports about poverty based on THEIR interpretation of poverty.

This report wasn't written by them  hence the outcry. 

Edited November 17, 2018 by Hamster

[Mungler]

No, drawing in Maxwell and Green into a point about the German population renting and not buying is entirely random.

I think there’s lower home ownership in Germany and Switzerland probably because property prices are so high.

Interestingly though it suggests you can rent and not be in poverty, and so rounding back to the nurse, perhaps she should rent in Bromley 😝

 

[bostonmick]

10 minutes ago, Hamster said:

Thanks, so it's based on your immediate experience with one low wage hard working man, the job centre and the local tip, in other words about as representative of the overall picture of reality as a drop of water in a lake. 

I never forget a cartoon mocking Arthur Scargill fighting mine closures back in the day when a tiny caption in the corner showed a sign at the entrance to a mine which read : It's the pits. Them papers were corrupt even then and truth be known probably a hundred years before that, subliminal brainwashing and demonising anyone who dares speak for the common man. 

The common man. Now there's a joke. Have you never watched those programmes on TV you know the on benefits type. All these people have a house or flat to live in paid by the state money paid to them weekly for food etc. Most go to the shops in their cars the children are watching cartoons on sky TV. The parents smoke to calm their nerves from the stress of the poverty they are suffering due to society that rewards those who try. But only gives aid to those who don't. There was a thread on here a little while back about people not wanting to work. Do you count these in the 14 million. And I have spoke to others who are on jsa and other benefits a d they are by no means poverty stricken.you would have to go far from our shores to see real poverty.

[Whatmuff]

9 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Random.

So they’ve got plenty of money to rent (your words) but not to buy (which is just like renting but after a number of years you get to own it) 😀

 

Completely different which is why the property market will fail. 

To rent you need maybe 1 month's rent upfront, then (SE for example) average 3 bed = £1000 pcm.

To buy a 3 bed home you could be looking at £350 000 so to get a mortgage for that you'll need at least 35k in savings and to be on around 80k a year? How can you compare the two? And the entire South East is priced like this. 

[Yellow Bear]

13 minutes ago, Hamster said:

Both, the programme explained why they felt under no pressure to buy. Owning a home here has long been seen as a way of ensuring we have enough to pay for our old age and funeral ! Need I remind people of Maxwell, Green and his ilk robbing us even of our pensions ? 

You forgot Gordon Brown - he did it big time to just about everyone with a private pension,

[Hamster]

1 minute ago, bostonmick said:

The common man. Now there's a joke. Have you never watched those programmes on TV you know the on benefits type. All these people have a house or flat to live in paid by the state money paid to them weekly for food etc. Most go to the shops in their cars the children are watching cartoons on sky TV. The parents smoke to calm their nerves from the stress of the poverty they are suffering due to society that rewards those who try. But only gives aid to those who don't. There was a thread on here a little while back about people not wanting to work. Do you count these in the 14 million. And I have spoke to others who are on jsa and other benefits a d they are by no means poverty stricken.you would have to go far from our shores to see real poverty.

Just worked out what ills ya, you just can't detach yourself and this topic from "people on benefits", are some of them part of the problem, yes of course, do they represent a huge part of the equation, of course not, they're just the handiest stick to hand to fend off the reality some don't want to face. 

[Mice!]

1 hour ago, Hamster said:

 👏 👍 Indeed it is and criticism duly accepted and noted but it was somewhat on purpose because it's no more  assumptive and ludicrous than : 

"but they didn't gripe how it wasn't fair, we were brought up wanting to work not sponge off the state"

which is the gist of an awful lot of what has come to define the responses to this thread and which you sadly failed to spot. 🙄 🤔

How is what you quote assumptive and ludicrous? It's absolute fact because its how i was brought up. If you grow up being told you have to make do because money is always tight then you want more, you get a education and a trade and work funky shifts so you can earn more.

[Hamster]

1 minute ago, Mice! said:

How is what you quote assumptive and ludicrous? It's absolute fact because its how i was brought up. If you grow up being told you have to make do because money is always tight then you want more, you get a education and a trade and work funky shifts so you can earn more.

It was the "sponging off bit I meant to highlight."

[Mungler]

3 minutes ago, Whatmuff said:

Completely different which is why the property market will fail. 

To rent you need maybe 1 month's rent upfront, then (SE for example) average 3 bed = £1000 pcm.

To buy a 3 bed home you could be looking at £350 000 so to get a mortgage for that you'll need at least 35k in savings and to be on around 80k a year? How can you compare the two? And the entire South East is priced like this. 

 

But that’s the point, they rent in Germany (Germany has less recorded poverty than the UK) and so the nurse (which is where all this started) should rent.

[bostonmick]

3 minutes ago, Hamster said:

Just worked out what ills ya, you just can't detach yourself and this topic from "people on benefits", are some of them part of the problem, yes of course, do they represent a huge part of the equation, of course not, they're just the handiest stick to hand to fend off the reality some don't want to face. 

You sir must feel the warm glow of superiority each time you donate great sums to help those worthy causes. Or is it just your warm duvet keeping you warm while you sleep without a care

As the advert says. The harder you work the luckier you are. 

[Hamster]

2 minutes ago, bostonmick said:

You sir must feel the warm glow of superiority each time you donate great sums to help those worthy causes. Or is it just your warm duvet keeping you warm while you sleep without a care

I don't feel superior, in fact I just feel worried thinking about what the future holds for our kids. 

Edited November 17, 2018 by Hamster

[Whatmuff]

1 minute ago, Mungler said:

 

But that’s the point, they rent in Germany (Germany has less recorded poverty than the UK) and so the nurse (which is where all this started) should rent.

But I don't understand how she can afford to? Have a look at the rental market in the South East. You can't on 22grand. Let's just say she's single as there are plenty of single nurses struggling to find a place to live. Let alone raise a family 

[Mungler]

Yes Bromley is an expensive place. Her and her husband should look at somewhere else and then consider commuting.

I don’t think I could afford to live there; indeed I couldn’t and so I don’t.

When I worked in London (Barbican) renting or living anywhere near there was not financially viable. I wasn’t jealous of the people who did mine you...

 

 

Edited November 17, 2018 by Mungler