Choke gauge and an observation.

[Scully]

Nephew told me he didn't think the shotgun I sold him ( a Winchester 8500 Trap ) was choked as tight as it states on the gun, so after buying it back off him and doing a round of 100 clays with it the other weekend, which was thoroughly enjoyable, I bought one of the above. I was a tad disappointed to discover he was right, and that instead of being choked Full and Extra Full, it is in fact ( according to the gauge ) choked at half and three quarters! I can only assume those clays I literally turned to dust were with the tighter barrel. 

What I thought was a Perazzi half choke is in between half and three quarters, the Teague in the other barrel is a half, which tally's with both the choke and gauge, and another Winchester 101 Field I always thought of as fixed at quarter and half is actually cylinder and quarter!

Despite some not being what I believed them to be, and even though I would have preferred the 8500 to have been choked as marked, I can't say I'm too disappointed as I have to admit being impressed with just what you can achieve with open choke when I look back at what I've done with these guns. It's been a bit of a revelation to me actually.

I was convincingly clattering some far off crossing clays with that half and three quarters last weekend, and was discussing today with a couple of mates just how impressive that cylinder and quarter choked 101 has been when I recall some of the birds I've shot with it over the years. Some of my most memorable birds have been killed dead in the air with that cylinder barrel on syndicate days. The more I think of it the more I'm impressed with just what can be achieved with cylinder. I have no doubt the right cartridge plays a part too. 

[bornfree]

The 8500 will be over bored at 18.6mm so a standard choke gauge will not read correctly.

[7iain7]

Just now, bornfree said:

The 8500 will be over bored at 18.6mm so a standard choke gauge will not read correctly.

+1

[Dave at kelton]

The only way to assess choke accurately is using a micrometer gauge so you can measure bore and choke dimensions.

As to your observation I agree. At normal ranges little or no choke gives far better patterns. Many of my antique guns have little or no choke and kill all the better for it.

[Scully]

19 minutes ago, bornfree said:

The 8500 will be over bored at 18.6mm so a standard choke gauge will not read correctly.

Fair enough. So where does that leave my 8500? Any ideas if it's reading half and three quarters? 

[bornfree]

It will be tighter than the gauge shows

[Scully]

21 minutes ago, bornfree said:

It will be tighter than the gauge shows

Jolly good. Thank you. 👍

[Hamster]

It takes an exceedingly good shooter to makes sense of true Full choke, the notion that anyone whose gun is choked 3/4 - Full minces everything he hits is simply not true, an awful lot of chippy breaks are the norm when average shots wield tight guns. 

Half on the other hand is an exceedingly capable combo and can and will produce vapour at mid range and crushing kills at longer ranges than most of us can hit them at to begin with (whilst retaining a fairly forgiving margin of error), if I were ever lucky enough to buy a Trap 8500 the first thing I'd do is fit half/three quarter or open it up to that if it was a fixed choke. 

[Stonepark]

1 hour ago, Dave at kelton said:

The only way to assess choke accurately is using a micrometer gauge so you can measure bore and choke dimensions.

As to your observation I agree. At normal ranges little or no choke gives far better patterns. Many of my antique guns have little or no choke and kill all the better for it.

The only way to assess choke acurately is to pattern the gun at 40 yards and meet the minimum pellet density percentage required.

Nominal measurements are an approximate reference, nothing more.

 

 

 

 

[JohnfromUK]

8 hours ago, Stonepark said:

The only way to assess choke accurately is to pattern the gun at 40 yards and meet the minimum pellet density percentage required.

Nominal measurements are an approximate reference, nothing more.

This is the correct answer.  30 inch circle drawn afterwards around the centre of the pattern.

Also the measurement must be the degree of constriction - not just the diameter at the choke.  That gives a good guide, but the actual pattern achieved will vary with ammunition characteristics as well as the barrel boring.

[wymberley]

12 hours ago, Stonepark said:

The only way to assess choke acurately is to pattern the gun at 40 yards and meet the minimum pellet density percentage required.

Nominal measurements are an approximate reference, nothing more.

 

 

 

 

This has always been the case but is becoming more relevant as increasingly one can never be sure exactly what the barrel diameter is going to be. I posted about this a while back and it's now also necessary to check the wheel tapper's hammer. Knowing exactly what the barrels measured I got a plug gauge to check out several chokes and it wasn't making any sense. Consequently, I checked the gauge - there's a clue there, Scully.

[shalfordninja33]

14 hours ago, Scully said:

Nephew told me he didn't think the shotgun I sold him ( a Winchester 8500 Trap ) was choked as tight as it states on the gun, so after buying it back off him and doing a round of 100 clays with it the other weekend, which was thoroughly enjoyable, I bought one of the above. I was a tad disappointed to discover he was right, and that instead of being choked Full and Extra Full, it is in fact ( according to the gauge ) choked at half and three quarters! I can only assume those clays I literally turned to dust were with the tighter barrel. 

What I thought was a Perazzi half choke is in between half and three quarters, the Teague in the other barrel is a half, which tally's with both the choke and gauge, and another Winchester 101 Field I always thought of as fixed at quarter and half is actually cylinder and quarter!

Despite some not being what I believed them to be, and even though I would have preferred the 8500 to have been choked as marked, I can't say I'm too disappointed as I have to admit being impressed with just what you can achieve with open choke when I look back at what I've done with these guns. It's been a bit of a revelation to me actually.

I was convincingly clattering some far off crossing clays with that half and three quarters last weekend, and was discussing today with a couple of mates just how impressive that cylinder and quarter choked 101 has been when I recall some of the birds I've shot with it over the years. Some of my most memorable birds have been killed dead in the air with that cylinder barrel on syndicate days. The more I think of it the more I'm impressed with just what can be achieved with cylinder. I have no doubt the right cartridge plays a part too. 

I shot a simulated game day in the summer and had inadvertanly flicked the barrel selector to shoot the the half choke first followed by the quarter, the longest range clays I broke that day were using the quarter choke, I'd only realised I was shooting the barrels the other way around on the last drive. Following that i'm using Skeet and Quarter with 30gm No7 for my driven shooting this year and it's been every bit as successful. I'm convinced that many people use too much choke for their standard of shooting and would help themselves by opening up a bit.

[JohnfromUK]

The issue is complex. 

No 7 shot can give a good pattern with few gaps out to a considerable range, even in an open gun .......... but striking energy per pellet is low and consequently it requires more 'strikes' on a live quarry for a clean kill.  (On clays, this is less important, as the breaking energy is low and a lightly chipped target is still a 'kill' whereas with live game you are obviously looking for a clean real kill).  No 7, 7 1/2, or 8 are popular choices for clays.

Conversely, at longer ranges, live quarry needs more striking energy than No 7 might have, and so No 7 may be too light - moving to 6, or 5 gives more energy per pellet ......... but a less dense pattern, so choke is used to 'tighten' the pattern - but being tighter, putting it in the right place is that much more critical.

There is no 'one size fits all' answer.  For clays, generally smaller shot is preferred with choke chosen (for those who have the option) to suit the range and orientation of the target.  The more choke, the more accurately the pattern has to be placed, but the lower the chances of the clay going through a 'hole' in the pattern.  For live quarry, striking energy is important, so No 6 or 5 (or even 4) is often used - in combination with some choke to give both a suitably dense pattern, but also sufficient striking energy to give a clean kill on the quarry concerned at the range likely.

Then of course - a given gun/choke will behave differently with different cartridges, wad types, muzzle velocities etc ........ and though the pattern plate tells you a lot, the real 'pattern' is a shot string longer that it's diameter - and the target is moving.

Conclusion : shoot what works for you are enjoy it - don't worry too much about the choke because there are too many things to worry about - the two most important (in my view) being to put the pattern in the right place and (for live quarry) know your limitations (range and ability) and don't take shots that are likely to be too far for a clean kill.

 

Edited November 19, 2018 by JohnfromUK

[wymberley]

The problem is is how do you define a gap? Let's say that we're putting 150 pellets (7s) from an oz load in the 30" circle, how many gaps - let's say the size of a 5" diameter circle and which don't overlap - would you expect to find in an average quality pattern?

[Scully]

6 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

The issue is complex. 

No 7 shot can give a good pattern with few gaps out to a considerable range, even in an open gun .......... but striking energy per pellet is low and consequently it requires more 'strikes' on a live quarry for a clean kill.  (On clays, this is less important, as the breaking energy is low and a lightly chipped target is still a 'kill' whereas with live game you are obviously looking for a clean real kill).  No 7, 7 1/2, or 8 are popular choices for clays.

Conversely, at longer ranges, live quarry needs more striking energy than No 7 might have, and so No 7 may be too light - moving to 6, or 5 gives more energy per pellet ......... but a less dense pattern, so choke is used to 'tighten' the pattern - but being tighter, putting it in the right place is that much more critical.

There is no 'one size fits all' answer.  For clays, generally smaller shot is preferred with choke chosen (for those who have the option) to suit the range and orientation of the target.  The more choke, the more accurately the pattern has to be placed, but the lower the chances of the clay going through a 'hole' in the pattern.  For live quarry, striking energy is important, so No 6 or 5 (or even 4) is often used - in combination with some choke to give both a suitably dense pattern, but also sufficient striking energy to give a clean kill on the quarry concerned at the range likely.

Then of course - a given gun/choke will behave differently with different cartridges, wad types, muzzle velocities etc ........ and though the pattern plate tells you a lot, the real 'pattern' is a shot string longer that it's diameter - and the target is moving.

Conclusion : shoot what works for you are enjoy it - don't worry too much about the choke because there are too many things to worry about - the two most important (in my view) being to put the pattern in the right place and (for live quarry) know your limitations (range and ability) and don't take shots that are likely to be too far for a clean kill.

 

I may regret starting this thread 😀as in my opinion it’s only as complex as anyone wants to make it. I don’t get hung up about choke at all as I know from years of experience that misses are very seldom down to choke. I only bought the gauge to get an idea of what the 8500 was choked at. 

I like a bit of choke as I like to see definite breaks and kills, but wouldn’t feel at a great disadvantage at a shoot ( either game or clays ) with wide open or full chokes for either, although I acknowledge full for the former under normal circumstances isn’t usually desirable. 

A complex and anal study of choke  may be interesting to many, but it won’t make anyone a better shot. 

 

[JohnfromUK]

6 minutes ago, Scully said:

it’s only as complex as anyone wants to make it.

I entirely agree.  I have a cupboard full of guns and only one is 'changeable choke' - and that only because an earlier owner had it 'Teagued'.  I have never changed them despite having a box full.  I don't know without looking up what my guns are - other than nothing more than 1/2, and only a muzzle loader and an old hammer gun are 'true' cylinder.  Everything else is between IC and 1/2 (two guns have spare barrels that are in one case full & full and the other skeet and skeet I think)  Doesn't bother me at all, but my point was there is no 'correct' answer to how much choke you need.

Edited November 19, 2018 by JohnfromUK

[Walker570]

11 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

This is the correct answer.  30 inch circle drawn afterwards around the centre of the pattern.

Also the measurement must be the degree of constriction - not just the diameter at the choke.  That gives a good guide, but the actual pattern achieved will vary with ammunition characteristics as well as the barrel boring.

100%  agree.     For interests sake I have been shooting full choke in both barrels for the past two seasons, Richard Gray of Affordable Days suggested I open up a bit .....no don't be daft , I'm not shy....he meant the chokes, so I put in the #4 marked chokes in my Yilditz 410 for a day at Catton and truly believe I was killing more birds and better as a result.  I have gone back a step to the #3 set and last week killed a lot of good partridge and also some tree top skimmers when a back gun on a walk and stand day.  I do believe for general every day shooting the tendency to use heavily choked barrels in wrong....but heh!!!! confidence is a great killer ..whatever floats your boat and it doesn't sink.

Edited November 19, 2018 by Walker570