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4535jacks

Barrel Wall thickness for used gun?

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    I am looking to buy a side by side that i plan to keep long term and so i am looking for longevity.  One gun i looked at, the salesman meaured the barrels and said the minimum reading was 32thou.  

     

    This figure means nothing to me.  Is this a normal minimum barrel thickness for a used gun with plenty of service left?

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    I believe on an English gun, the minimum recommended barrel wall thickness is 19thou.....32thou is fine but is that correctly measured in each barrel?

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    This is a spanish gun.  How should it be measured?

     

    Is there a rule of thumb of barrel wear in thou per 1000 or 10,000 cartridges?

    Edited by 4535jacks

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    Last first. No, it will depend upon the nature of the cartridges and the quality of the gun (barrel steel).

    Have no wish to put words in his mouth, but suspect Panoma is saying that to be done accurately the job requires a degree of skill and the correct tools. Spanish or English, same same. Said equipment is not cheap and a reasonably accurate reading can be obtained by someone experienced in the use of telescopic gauges and a micrometer. Not recommended though if precision is required.

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    1 hour ago, wymberley said:

    Last first. No, it will depend upon the nature of the cartridges and the quality of the gun (barrel steel).

    Have no wish to put words in his mouth, but suspect Panoma is saying that to be done accurately the job requires a degree of skill and the correct tools. Spanish or English, same same. Said equipment is not cheap and a reasonably accurate reading can be obtained by someone experienced in the use of telescopic gauges and a micrometer. Not recommended though if precision is required.

    Yes! A barrel thickness gauge and the knowledge of how to use it properly! Wear from use is not usually significant, thin barrels are usually as a result of removing metal from the bore in order to get rid of pitting!

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    1 hour ago, panoma1 said:

    Yes! A barrel thickness gauge and the knowledge of how to use it properly!

    A few years ago I was interested in buying a secondhand Arietta sidelock from a well known RFD.

     

    “Do you have a note of the barrel wall thickness?”

    “No, but I’ll get somebody to measure it for you.”

     

    A man appeared from a back room with gauges and said “It’ll be about 30 thou”, then he put ONE of the barrels over the gauge post, read the dial at ONE spot (neither rotating the barrels around the post, nor checking at different points along the barrel length) and pronounced “There you are, 30 thou, just as I expected.”

     

    I don’t pretend to be a gunsmith, and was certainly not going to argue with his professional technique, but I didn’t buy that gun and have never bothered to go back to the same dealer.

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    Its all very well talking about wall thickness in general but the material the barrel is made of can be of importance . Especially when talking of older guns .

    For instance it was considered that Greeners barrel steel needed to be heavier than that used by Webley and Scott . Browning used a harder steel than AyA .

    Many light weight English guns left the factory with a .022" wall thickness and bearing in mind the crudity of some measuring equipment of the time may have had walls of .018".

    Some Spanish guns and from experience Arizabalaga  were a prime example were struck and polished to the extent that some  came out with walls of under . 018 " .

    You can measure a barrel and find odd spots some times against the ribs from striking or if dents have been removed that are several thou below the rest of the barrels .

    There is no "minimum" wall thickness . This was an invention of the auction houses as a way of covering themselves ,selling , what some would consider worn out or potentially unsafe guns . The old " buyer beware " get out . 

    When it comes down to it its down to you to decide , dependent on what you are going to shoot through it ie. light or heavy loads and the amount you are going to shoot it , a few ounce loads on a walked up day or a couple of hundred at a clay ground every week . 

    Last comment . When measuring a barrel for wall thickness it needs to be slid up and down and rotated so that 90% of the barrel is covered . With the gauge on a level surface [ very important ] ,in front  of the customer , the same with bore diameters . 

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    The barrel thickness is usualy measured 12 to 15 inches in from the muzzle with a proper guage rotated

    This barrel minimum thickness is only a guide

    Depending on the make of gun

    The barrel wall thickness is when  the gun is new and proofed and is stamped on the gun and there is a set wear allowed for that make of gun before being judged out of proof

    Example say a Spanish gun was proofed new at 32 Thou and today after years of use it measures 18 thou That gun would be deemed out of proof

    Whereas an english gun proofed new at 22Thou and now reads 18 Thou would still be deemed in proof

    Use  and cartridges are also a factor

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    22 minutes ago, sabel25 said:

    The barrel wall thickness is when  the gun is new and proofed and is stamped on the gun

    That is incorrect. The internal bore diameter is marked on the barrels, not the wall thickness.

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    Ba

    9 minutes ago, sabel25 said:

    The barrel thickness is usualy measured 12 to 15 inches in from the muzzle with a proper guage rotated

    This barrel minimum thickness is only a guide

    Depending on the make of gun

    The barrel wall thickness is when  the gun is new and proofed and is stamped on the gun and there is a set wear allowed for that make of gun before being judged out of proof

    Example say a Spanish gun was proofed new at 32 Thou and today after years of use it measures 18 thou That gun would be deemed out of proof

    Whereas an english gun proofed new at 22Thou and now reads 18 Thou would still be deemed in proof

    Use  and cartridges are also a factor

    Barrel wall thickness needs to be measured over its length . On traditional guns  thinnest part of a barrel will be approximately 9" from the muzzle . The idea that if a blockage occurs in the muzzle and the barrel bursts then it will be in front of the leading hand .

    Wall thickness is NOT stamped on the barrel at proof .Some  Continental proofs mark barrel weight but that dose not apply in the UK .ie in Belgium even boring a choke could deem a gun out of proof , as this has reduced weight .

    Wall thickness has no bearing on a guns proof status under UK Rules of Proof , ONLY if the bore size has been increased above the set specific diameter of that bore , Metric proof since the 80's has meant increments of . 02mm or .008" .guns proofed prior to this still use sizes under the previous rules .

    There is however the adage use by responsible gun trade members that a gun can be "visibly out of proof" . That gun in its present state will not be accepted for Re-Proof  so is therefore "out of proof" . This can be and often is ignored by those who interpret the law to their advantage .

    There are numerous other factors which can effect proof status   .

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    9 minutes ago, JJsDad said:

    That is incorrect. The internal bore diameter is marked on the barrels, not the wall thickness.

    Yes but by measuring the wear on the wall thickness a gunsmith can determin how much larger the bore size has increased through wear

    Maybe i did'nt word it right

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    25 minutes ago, Gunman said:

    Ba

    Barrel wall thickness needs to be measured over its length . On traditional guns  thinnest part of a barrel will be approximately 9" from the muzzle . The idea that if a blockage occurs in the muzzle and the barrel bursts then it will be in front of the leading hand .

    Wall thickness is NOT stamped on the barrel at proof .Some  Continental proofs mark barrel weight but that dose not apply in the UK .ie in Belgium even boring a choke could deem a gun out of proof , as this has reduced weight .

    Wall thickness has no bearing on a guns proof status under UK Rules of Proof , ONLY if the bore size has been increased above the set specific diameter of that bore , Metric proof since the 80's has meant increments of . 02mm or .008" .guns proofed prior to this still use sizes under the previous rules .

    There is however the adage use by responsible gun trade members that a gun can be "visibly out of proof" . That gun in its present state will not be accepted for Re-Proof  so is therefore "out of proof" . This can be and often is ignored by those who interpret the law to their advantage .

    There are numerous other factors which can effect proof status   .

    Makes perfect sense to me, but does leave me somewhat confused. Is there not another 9" but this time from the breech which relates to barrel internal diameter?

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    4 hours ago, wymberley said:

    Makes perfect sense to me, but does leave me somewhat confused. Is there not another 9" but this time from the breech which relates to barrel internal diameter?

    Yes, I understand the internal bore diameter is measured at 9inches from the breach.

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    As far as I am concerned I'd want to know what the thinnest part of the barrels were and how things. This 22" thou 9" from here and there means nothing if at 11" it's paper thin.

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    30 minutes ago, figgy said:

    As far as I am concerned I'd want to know what the thinnest part of the barrels were and how things. This 22" thou 9" from here and there means nothing if at 11" it's paper thin.

    Aren't we on about two different things - design dimensions being one and condition being the other?

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    Depends on how the dimensions were measured at the time of making. 

    Who knows what the design dimensions were, all I've read about the London gun trade in the early 1900's were that they took the barrels down to what they felt handled right, sometimes going a bit too far.

    Nobody wanted a numb handling heavy gun.

    Even today if two different people measured a gun with the same equipment, chances are they'd get different measurements.

    Edited by figgy

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    Can I please put one misconception to bed . Shooting a shotgun with normal loads using conventional components will not wear a barrel out , Shoot 100,000 rounds and the ware factor will be so slight that it will be hard to measure .

    Lack of cleaning allowing surface pitting will have an effect and can lead to some ware , as can polishing bores with abrasive , but again these amounts are so small .

    Repairing damage such as lifting dents ,removal of pitting internal and externally can and will have a greater affect on both  bore size and wall thickness .

    On 01/12/2018 at 20:25, 4535jacks said:

    I am looking to buy a side by side that i plan to keep long term and so i am looking for longevity.  One gun i looked at, the salesman measured the barrels and said the minimum reading was 32thou.  

     

    This figure means nothing to me.  Is this a normal minimum barrel thickness for a used gun with plenty of service left?

    I answer to the original post .032" is very acceptable if it is the minimum .I would ask that on the receipt for the gun that the bore sizes , wall thicknesses and choke sizes are clearly stated . 

    If you then want to get an independent appraisal from an experienced person and there is a difference of more than .002" then take it back . This allows for different gauges as I do know that from using a multiple of equipment that some small differences are possible .

    As a matter of interest what is the gun you have in mind as there are other factors to bear in mind if buying for long term  

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    32 thou is pretty thick - Many guns were never even made that thick originally.

    More important is proof status - an area in which you should never assume, ive seen some fine looking guns well out of proof. When you buy a gun take it to someone trustworthy with kit and experience to tell you whats what.

    Its also alarmingly common in the trade to be given completely bogus figures, assurances from those who don't know what they are assuring you of, and people applying the wrong rules of proof to a particular gun... Ive had some apparently genuine confusions - but ive also spoken to dealers who have put calipers around the muzzle end to measure wall thickness and told me its "about 1mm" Again this is just my experience in the trade - a lot of folk sell guns without knowing the responsibilities of doing so - the same can be said for buyers.

    Ive been sold a gun in the trade which i received measured and found to be out of proof "Well it was cheap for a reason" was the response i got from him. Id name and shame but its been a few years and i cant honestly remember who that chap was.

    Even those of us who know how to measure things up properly would never have an issue with the gun being checked over, by another competent individual if the buyer wanted to make absolutely certain.

    Edited by demonwolf444

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    On 03/12/2018 at 09:52, Gunman said:

    Can I please put one misconception to bed . Shooting a shotgun with normal loads using conventional components will not wear a barrel out , Shoot 100,000 rounds and the ware factor will be so slight that it will be hard to measure .

    Lack of cleaning allowing surface pitting will have an effect and can lead to some ware , as can polishing bores with abrasive , but again these amounts are so small .

    Repairing damage such as lifting dents ,removal of pitting internal and externally can and will have a greater affect on both  bore size and wall thickness .

    I answer to the original post .032" is very acceptable if it is the minimum .I would ask that on the receipt for the gun that the bore sizes , wall thicknesses and choke sizes are clearly stated . 

    If you then want to get an independent appraisal from an experienced person and there is a difference of more than .002" then take it back . This allows for different gauges as I do know that from using a multiple of equipment that some small differences are possible .

    As a matter of interest what is the gun you have in mind as there are other factors to bear in mind if buying for long term  

    I am looking at a Gunmark sabel 25.  Sadly can't quite afford a Churchill XXV.

    Edited by 4535jacks

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    11 hours ago, 4535jacks said:

    I am looking at a Gunmark sabel 25.  Sadly can't quite afford a Churchill XXV.

    I had one of the Sabel 25 sidelock churchill rib 12bores Cracking little gun and used nothing but 28g cartridges through it Hull three crown paper cases were my favoured choice

    Bought it new in 1980 but sold it earlier in the spring of this year as it was'nt getting used also my AYA no.2 got sold too  To free up space and stick to O/U's

    There's still some on the market and the prices are coming down compared to a few years back as SXS are not in fashion these days

    Good luck with your search

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    Have good look around .Personally I would go for the AyA over a Sable as they are still made and spares if they should ever be needed are plentiful .About 2 years back a shop sold a nice AyA 25 best boxlock for £350 , a very good deal in my opinion.

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    36 minutes ago, Gunman said:

    Have good look around .Personally I would go for the AyA over a Sable as they are still made and spares if they should ever be needed are plentiful .About 2 years back a shop sold a nice AyA 25 best boxlock for £350 , a very good deal in my opinion.

    Although Arrieta went into admin and closed their doors They are still going to make them in a smaller company they bought in 2012 Pedro Arrizabalaga who make hand built guns

     

    So i would think that spares should be obtainable Having said i owned mine for 37 years and it was never in a gunsmiths for anything, never had any problems

    Arrieta supplied sxs for William Powell

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    My local gunsmith is happy he can still get spares and if need be I am happy to machine my own.  I too would love an AYA over an Arrieta but the AYA XXV sidelock is significantly more than I have agreed to pay for the Arrieta.

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