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Sec 1 firearms


TomV
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18 minutes ago, TomV said:

I'm not a full member of a club, I assume being a provisional member would be not accepted grounds? I have some limited experience of .22rf & .17hmr only. I think West Yorkshire FAO have always taken that view about experience. If they are wrong I would challenge it, but I'd like to be 100% clear on why they are going against guidance

Correct, you need to get through your probation period.

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57 minutes ago, TomV said:

I'm not a full member of a club, I assume being a provisional member would be not accepted grounds? I have some limited experience of .22rf & .17hmr only. I think West Yorkshire FAO have always taken that view about experience. If they are wrong I would challenge it, but I'd like to be 100% clear on why they are going against guidance

Guidance is just that, they can interpret it how they like , you should try Nottinghams quirks !
For clarification, this is the part of the HO guidance relevant.

13.32 An applicant who wishes to shoot deer should name land which has the likelihood of the appropriate deer species being present, and an invitation, booking or authority to shoot. This is not necessary where a person already holds a deer legal rifle for an established reason. Many deer stalkers will rely on invitations to shoot on payment rather than be hired or paid to do so and may not be able to shoot regularly or frequently, though others may be permanently employed, for example, Forestry Commission staff. Hunting large animals with powerful rifles requires particular skill, and applicants should generally have some experience of firearms.

Now whilst Im not doubting that people have been given Sec 1 tickets with just some booked stalks as their 'good reason' a first application with no prior knowledge of deer calibres is going to struggle, IF you did the DSC ,they MIGHT relent, you at least have some experience, or go on the stalks, borrow a gun under supervision.
Personally, unless stalking is your primary motivation to get into Sec 1, I would start off small and work up, approach some clubs and see what they offer, probation times are at the clubs discretion..
I would also have a read through the HO guidelines and trim what knowledge is relevant to you from it.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/518193/Guidance_on_Firearms_Licensing_Law_April_2016_v20.pdf

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The c/f course at £100 was pushed by Avon as demonstrating sufficient experience and knowledge for a c/f ticket to be issued. Having also completed the DSC1 there is very little firearms work involved compared to the c/f course. 

If you look closely at Stalking Directory there are occasions when sponsored DSC courses are made available. 

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Like most things in the firearms licencing world it depends on your specific police force a lot of the time. I know of people in a few forces who got granted centre fire from the off for vermin control i.e. fox. 

Certainly from my experience in Thames  Valley and a friend in Bedfordshire they seem to go for a graduated approach especially for pest control i.e. get a .17HMR/ ,22LR so some time with that and then put in for a .223 etc for fox.

I recently got my .243 for deer off the back of paid stalks but this was after having a centre fire for two years for fox and 4 paid stalks + a letter from the guide I had been using that he had observed me stalking and I was competent. A friend is looking to get into stalking with me and he is signed up for DSC1 and several paid stalks before he even thinks about applying as his previous fac experience was with cadets. 

Having been lucky enough to have permissions to put my FAC on (after a few years of shotgun and air rifle work) if I was going to go again I would look for a club initially that I fitted well with and then move on from there. Once you have your ticket its seems a lot easier to progress to other calibres and bits of the hobby than going big straight off.   

 

Not saying it right and fair but with the wollyness of the guidance i.e. for big calibres it does state experience of firearms and generally that put s a blocker for going straight for deer calibre with no experience. 

Edited by Zetter
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5 hours ago, Zetter said:

Like most things in the firearms licencing world it depends on your specific police force a lot of the time. I know of people in a few forces who got granted centre fire from the off for vermin control i.e. fox. 

Certainly from my experience in Thames  Valley and a friend in Bedfordshire they seem to go for a graduated approach especially for pest control i.e. get a .17HMR/ ,22LR so some time with that and then put in for a .223 etc for fox.

I recently got my .243 for deer off the back of paid stalks but this was after having a centre fire for two years for fox and 4 paid stalks + a letter from the guide I had been using that he had observed me stalking and I was competent. A friend is looking to get into stalking with me and he is signed up for DSC1 and several paid stalks before he even thinks about applying as his previous fac experience was with cadets. 

Having been lucky enough to have permissions to put my FAC on (after a few years of shotgun and air rifle work) if I was going to go again I would look for a club initially that I fitted well with and then move on from there. Once you have your ticket its seems a lot easier to progress to other calibres and bits of the hobby than going big straight off.   

 

Not saying it right and fair but with the wollyness of the guidance i.e. for big calibres it does state experience of firearms and generally that put s a blocker for going straight for deer calibre with no experience. 

Depends what the FEO had for breakfast, mine was many years ago in Thames Valley, not only did I get Centrefire but also Open on first grant!

Nothing stands still but I'll bet I'm not the only person ever to get Open and CF on first grant in TV.

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I've found a stalking opportunity which will give me some experience. By the time my sec2 certificate is to be renewed I could have done a few days by then. Would this give me good grounds for a grant? Should I put in on this basis?

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16 minutes ago, TomV said:

I've found a stalking opportunity which will give me some experience. By the time my sec2 certificate is to be renewed I could have done a few days by then. Would this give me good grounds for a grant? Should I put in on this basis?

If you are able to demonstrate that you have an ongoing commitment to stalking by supplying documentation of past and future bookings, then I see no reason why not.

I know plenty of people who only stalk in the highlands a few days a year and have a rifle solely for that purpose. They have never shot a rimfire in their life and are not interested in vermin shooting, stalking is their passion and they had no problem getting a fac for that very purpose.

Don't be in a hurry to get your own rifle. Spend time and your money actually stalking, then in time applyfor your own. Commitment to your chosen sport is what the police are looking for.

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6 minutes ago, CharlieT said:

Don't be in a hurry to get your own rifle. Spend time and your money actually stalking, then in time applyfor your own. Commitment to your chosen sport is what the police are looking for.

Exactly right.

Until you show that commitment however, you cant apply for anything.

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2 hours ago, TomV said:

I've found a stalking opportunity which will give me some experience. By the time my sec2 certificate is to be renewed I could have done a few days by then. Would this give me good grounds for a grant? Should I put in on this basis?

You need good reason for any rifle, if you have good reason then you should be able to get one.

Sorry, but this sounds more and more to me like you just want a rifle and are looking for routes to get you one!

:hmm:

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TomV, how many days stalking have you booked since we have discussed this?  That is the only way around this predicament if you FEO says you need experience.  Keep records of shots taken and even photos of result in a note book and get each visit signed off by the person taking you out. It doesn't HAVE to be a professional stalker. I put in a letter for a young farmer who owned the ground and over which I had shot most of my calibres in the previous 20yrs. He had been refused a 243 but ok'd for a 223 .... I know  I know whats the difference ..none when it comes to safety, but I gave the background of the applicant and the fact that I had advised him and low and behold his application was cleared.    You the applicant just have to do a bit of footwork and pleased to hear that you have started.    KEEP WRITTEN AND PHOTOGRAPHIC RECORDS OF YOUR STALKS and yes put in your application. You have shown committment and to my mind they would be seriously nit picking to refuse you your FAC, particularly since they believe and authorise you to have a shotgun.

 

 

Edited by Walker570
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13 minutes ago, Dekers said:

You need good reason for any rifle, if you have good reason then you should be able to get one.

Sorry, but this sounds more and more to me like you just want a rifle and are looking for routes to get you one!

:hmm:

I was hoping to put in for coterminous certificate, if it means waiting until such time I have more experience I'm happy to wait 

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15 hours ago, TomV said:

I was hoping to put in for coterminous certificate, if it means waiting until such time I have more experience I'm happy to wait 

??????????????

Why do you want coterminous, what GOOD REASON do you have for acquiring a rifle, loads of people get rimfires and centrefires without courses, certificates, booked days, experience, whatever!

You need good reason primarily!

If you want to go stalking then make a case for it, get some land and/or book some paid days, and apply.  If you want target then join a club, if you want both do both!

In very simple terms getting a shotgun is easy, you can have one unless the police can show good reason why not, you can't have a FAC unless YOU can show good reason why!

 

 

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You do know that you can go ‘co-terminus’ at any time, just that you will be paying out a little bit more - but if your serious about getting into Stalking then the price difference is a drop in the ocean to what you will spend on kit and Stalks.

Dont be in a rush as maybe your FEO will question it, the same as some on here have too?

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