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Sec 1 firearms


TomV
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52 minutes ago, TomV said:

My renewal is up in a few months, im in the process of doing the paperwork. In an ideal world Id like to apply for sec 1 at the same time as my Sec 2 renewal. Do you have any recommendations for booking stalking opps?

Not off hand as I don't have the problem of having to book stalking but do know they are out there.  The Yorkshire Deer Stalkers have a good reputation, good place to start.  All down to how far you are willing to travel.  Lowther Estates used to do some commercial days but the stalker there I knew has since retired. He has some ground but do not know if he is taking stalkers out. I will enquire. He is a very experienced solid guy. Lake District lads on here probably know him.

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30 minutes ago, raphael262 said:

of course , but would they give any tom **** and harry a 308 if he has a letter from a farmer asking him to shoot fallow even if he has no

experience ? i think not 

All according to how the '''Tom Richard or Harry'' presented themselves and what the farmer's views where.  It has to start somewhere.  As a person born and bred on a farm I am very sure a farmer is not going to just plick any Tom Richard or Harry off the streets. The applicant is going to be checked out believe me, probably more thoroughly than the police.

 

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Home office guide lines are Good reason not Good  experience if you apply for a CF rifle for Deer on land you got permission on and the land owner want them gone  and he only grant you a RF  is there is a chance that person will try to shoot them with the RF  

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16 hours ago, Walker570 said:

It has not ceased to amaze me how the shooting fraternity , in particular rifle shooters have dream walked into a situation where more and more restrictions are put on them.

Initially you need to have some stalking and that can be a piece of property which has deer and on which you have permission to shoot  OR you can phone round the commercial stalkers offering days and book some stalking with them producing letters/e mails to that effect.   No requirement for expensive DSC couses or any other courses.  If you book with a pukka pro stalker he/she will have you shoot a group before venturing out. If they don't then they are not worth their salt and find someone else. 

You don't need a DSC this or that to kill a deer, plenty of books and toutube videos will show you how, but if you have gutted a rabbit then a deer is just that bit bigger and checking out the condition of the animal is no different whatsover if you intend eating the rabbit.

I spent many hours guiding people and I had one or two who couldn't wait to tell me they had passed their DSC2 but after just 15 mins on the ground I would not have let them out of my sight and made my mind up they should not be in possesion of a firearm.  

1.  Get some ground(not easy)

2.  Book some stalking  (very easy) tell the Pro that you are a beginner and willing to learn.  Usually you will learn a lot in your first outing.

All very true

Plus, there is a lot of merit in joining a club. I can shoot at one of mine six days a week and the club is affiliated to NRA, NSRA and MLAGB so has access to all their facilities. The big plus though is networking. You meet lots of new and useful people and once they get to know and trust you many things, including advice, invitations and introductions are possible. 

Booked stalking is the way to go, to be honest its the only way unless you are very well connected.

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3 minutes ago, Rim Fire said:

 I agree a club is one way but has its pitfalls one being you cant use expanding ammunition also you cant use a moderator because you dont need it for club shooting or that is how it used to be 

Not any more.
No restrictions on expanding, and mods are actually preferred at my clubs, with no issue of reason on ticket.

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18 minutes ago, Rim Fire said:

Thats better again then are all clubs the same

 

 

The sec 5 restrictions on expanding ammo no longer exist, so unless a club specifically prohibits use, then that should be good across the board.

Same again with mods, unless a club has a good reason to want more noise, then moderating even .22lr is preferable, and a perfectly good reason to acquire .

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BUT if the applicant does not wish to shoot at paper but wishes to hunt, then an application to join a club is a false reason is it not. 

If you do not already have permission to shoot on a suitable piece of property then the only way is to spend some money and book some days and i would suggest with a number of different Pro's because then you will get all sorts of different approaches to the subject and is a great grounding for whne you do acquire your own ground.

Unfortunately the Forestry Companies have now gone down the DSC route for insurance purposes just to cover thei own backs and various money spinners are now emerging for upgrades etc etc. so it may be a necessity to take the courses as expensive as they are, just to satisfy some insurance criterior.

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5 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

BUT if the applicant does not wish to shoot at paper but wishes to hunt, then an application to join a club is a false reason is it not. 

If you do not already have permission to shoot on a suitable piece of property then the only way is to spend some money and book some days and i would suggest with a number of different Pro's because then you will get all sorts of different approaches to the subject and is a great grounding for whne you do acquire your own ground.

Unfortunately the Forestry Companies have now gone down the DSC route for insurance purposes just to cover thei own backs and various money spinners are now emerging for upgrades etc etc. so it may be a necessity to take the courses as expensive as they are, just to satisfy some insurance criterior.

Before you start shooting live quarry you need to practice on paper, zero , get familar with the rifle , scope , ammo ?

I get nothing out of punching paper for the most part these days, but I like to be confident with my set up down the range, with what could actually be the 1 or 2 shots I might take in the field.
Its not so bad if you are using a modded .22lr , but anything louder and it can be a bit impractical to zero at you perms.

If  ALL he wants to do is stalking, then fair enough, but unless he gets perms with deer on, those opportunities could end up expensive and few.

Like has been said , clubs are a good source of contact, knowledge and experience, and a place to practice, to get those moments in the field, right first time.

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44 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Before you start shooting live quarry you need to practice on paper, zero , get familar with the rifle , scope , ammo ?

I get nothing out of punching paper for the most part these days, but I like to be confident with my set up down the range, with what could actually be the 1 or 2 shots I might take in the field.
Its not so bad if you are using a modded .22lr , but anything louder and it can be a bit impractical to zero at you perms.

If  ALL he wants to do is stalking, then fair enough, but unless he gets perms with deer on, those opportunities could end up expensive and few.

Like has been said , clubs are a good source of contact, knowledge and experience, and a place to practice, to get those moments in the field, right first time.

My thoughts were to join a club to get experience, exposure, of different calibres, practice zeroing etc. So I think the point about the club is an important one. Would I have to have some evidence to show stalking is booked or just making steps to book? Any help on the wording of the reasoning would be appreciated. I've got to get my application in this week 

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5 minutes ago, Rim Fire said:

you will need to book a couple stalks to prove to them you are serious and have all the paper work to prove it receipts dates and any other correspondence you have   

I can understand, in the first instance perhaps I should put in for a RF for use at a club to gain experience and then maybe look at getting a variation once I have further experience

Edited by TomV
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The range days arranged on here are a good start.  I don't intend to sound like a smart **** but although I have been asked to go, I really have shot so many rounds at targets (over 14yrs a day a month sniper practise, plus a day a month, indoor range work with handguns)  that I can do without it BUT for a new rifle starting out then i think joining like minded folk on the PW range days is an excellent idea.  Booking a few stalks and being honest and upfront with the Pro Stalker will ensure he gets a sensible close range shot to start him off and progress from there.  As far as shooting a rifle is concerned a great deal of practise can be had with the diminutive 22RF and with mod fitted  you can practise anywhere you have a safe background.

A mod on your deer/fox rifle will allow you to check zero in half a dozen shots or less.  Any more should be at soft and furry things.  I can do it on my 12 1/2 acres and don't cause any disruption to my neighbours.

Edited by Walker570
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1 hour ago, Walker570 said:

BUT if the applicant does not wish to shoot at paper but wishes to hunt, then an application to join a club is a false reason is it not. 

If you do not already have permission to shoot on a suitable piece of property then the only way is to spend some money and book some days and i would suggest with a number of different Pro's because then you will get all sorts of different approaches to the subject and is a great grounding for whne you do acquire your own ground.

Unfortunately the Forestry Companies have now gone down the DSC route for insurance purposes just to cover thei own backs and various money spinners are now emerging for upgrades etc etc. so it may be a necessity to take the courses as expensive as they are, just to satisfy some insurance criterior.

I’d seriously question anyone insisting on DSC or whatever if I was already insured via my shooting organisation. I’ve always stated it is merely an **** covering exercise, and an exercise which none of the organisations will actively oppose as most of them stand to gain financially from running such courses with so called acrediatation. 

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49 minutes ago, TomV said:

I can understand, in the first instance perhaps I should put in for a RF for use at a club to gain experience and then maybe look at getting a variation once I have further experience

Excellent plan.
But that kiboshes your plan of getting the app in this week.
You need to be a full member (probation served) of a club first.

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1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Excellent plan.
But that kiboshes your plan of getting the app in this week.
You need to be a full member (probation served) of a club first.

didn't realise I had to be a full member first! That would be typically a few months Im guessing. If I booked a couple of stalking opps then that might constitute good reason?!

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8 minutes ago, TomV said:

didn't realise I had to be a full member first! That would be typically a few months Im guessing.

Yes, you have to be a full member and probationary period is usually around 6 months. My FEO still requested a competency email from our rifle secretary and a full list of attendance during probation period, but after receiving the email granted everything I asked for.

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15 minutes ago, TomV said:

didn't realise I had to be a full member first! That would be typically a few months Im guessing. If I booked a couple of stalking opps then that might constitute good reason?!

Yes definitely, you might get away with 3 months at some clubs due to your SGC.

Be aware there is usually an attendance minimum.

I wouldn't rely on a couple of booked stalks as your reason either.

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12 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Yes definitely, you might get away with 3 months at some clubs due to your SGC.

Be aware there is usually an attendance minimum.

I wouldn't rely on a couple of booked stalks as your reason either.

I know of at least 5 shooters who got there CF rifles and only use them on booked stalking no ground of there own with deer on 

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44 minutes ago, Rim Fire said:

I know of at least 5 shooters who got there CF rifles and only use them on booked stalking no ground of there own with deer on 

Im sure its do able, but you have to put yourself in the position of firearms licencing, man shows evidence of booked stalks, no visible evidence of experience in calibre.
Are they really going to issue him with a ticket to buy a .243 or .308, just like that ?
Maybe some force areas will, but times change and those areas are rapidly dwindling.

At least with some range time he could say, I have fired those calibres, I understand rifle safety, I understand about backstops and range/ballistics.?
Or do they just let people loose with 2-3000 ft lb rifles with a 2 mile killing range ?

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just spoken to local FAO, I'd need to be a full member at a club before they'd consider an application. As for .240 & above calibre would need to show knowledge and experience before they'd consider. Dont think I'll be able to put in for my section 1 at the moment. All seems fair and reasonable. He did mention that if you can go out with anyone to gain experience would stand you in a better position

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12 minutes ago, Rim Fire said:

They are putting obstacles in your way which are not  in the home office guide lines just making up the rules as they go along and we are accepting them

 

I'm not a full member of a club, I assume being a provisional member would be not accepted grounds? I have some limited experience of .22rf & .17hmr only. I think West Yorkshire FAO have always taken that view about experience. If they are wrong I would challenge it, but I'd like to be 100% clear on why they are going against guidance

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