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Graham M

Are side by side guns obsolete

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    5 minutes ago, matone said:

    You only have to look at the terrible stance of people shooting `gun up` at any clay pigeon ground to see why they would struggle ,other than with rifle like,aimed shots looking up a single sight plane.

    Interesting - and I agree ...... but there is more to this in my view.  I will try and explain my 'theory'.  Firstly - I must admit to being very much in the 'average and a bit variable' category rather than a fine consistent shot.

    Shooting a light dynamic s/s is a joy but it has to fit well, and for most of us (and it is not only our size and shape, but also the gun mount style we have adopted) that means the drop and especially cast have to be very close to 'dead right'.  When I shoot my s/s (normal 'go to' gun is an older AyA No 1) - I don't see the gun, barrels, rib, bead at all.  I KNOW that if I mount it correctly it will put the pattern where I am looking and all will be (should be) well.  As I watch the target move across the sky, I mount my gun and pull the trigger.  A personal 'demon' is going away birds with little apparent 'movement' which make me focus on the gun - usually resulting in a miss.  However I find a s/s that doesn't fit is hard to shoot with - especially if the cast is wrong.

    Conversely, an o/u that doesn't fit well I can shoot passably with because it doesn't 'disappear' in the way a s/s does.  And that applies even to well fitted o/u guns.

    My theory is therefore that for the many who buy a gun in a shop based on the normal gun shop 'fitting advice' (where it is usually pronounced a good fit if he looks like getting a sale without having to offer too much discount!) can usually learn to shoot their o/u.  They do this my adjusting their mount to make sure they can 'see' up the rib and 'see' the bead.  Hence the discussions that go on about what the best size/type/colour of bead is and what type/width/design of rib is fitted.  A friend of mine was sold (when he was a beginner) a gun cast for the left shoulder - when he is right handed being told by the vendor it fitted well. 

    I don't think this is nearly as easy with a s/s, which for me anyway is a much faster more dynamic and natural technique.  I have different ribs on different s/s guns, but I MEVER notice either the rib or bead when shooting them.

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    7 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

    All competition guns seem to be O/U these days so it seems so.

    There are specific s/s competitions - and those who do well there would be hard to beat anywhere  It is certainly possible to shoot very well with a s/s, but I agree that the o/u has 100% domination in most competitions.  But they are specialist tools whereas most s/s are game guns.  The old 'live pigeon' shooters all used s/s, though not many o/u were around then.

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    O/U's came into the U.K. Shooting scene as Clay/target guns, and became popular because they were the best tool for the job, they then transitioned into the general live shooting field. The SBS was designed to shoot live quarry.......it was built for the job.....I wouldn't use a driver to chip a golf ball...........

    Probably a bad example as the result would probably be the same! Lol! 😖

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    For about 6 months I shot a Greener live pigeon S x S.

    Was doing alot of Rough Shooting at the time.

    I really could shoot  very well with it but it must have weighed about 8lbs and was a pain to lump around.

    Once you got swinging it you didn't have to worry about follow through as it did it for you.

    I'm sorry I didn't shoot a couple of rounds of DTL or Sporting with it as I'm sure it would have faired well.

     

     

     

     

    Edited by Robertt

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    2 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

    O/U's came into the U.K. Shooting scene as Clay/target guns, and became popular because they were the best tool for the job, they then transitioned into the general live shooting field. The SBS was designed to shoot live quarry.......it was built for the job.....I wouldn't use a driver to chip a golf ball...........

    Probably a bad example as the result would probably be the same! Lol! 😖

    That is correct - with exceptions/complications;

    There were from circa 100 years ago (and still are) a few very expensive British o/us intended for game shooting (think Purdey, Woodward, Boss, Westley Richards, Beesley, Lancaster who all made them).  They pre-dated the clays o/u popularity.  Geoffrey Boothroyd wrote a book on the British ones I believe.

    Early clays took over from 'live pigeon' which many famous gunmakers supplied competition guns for - all well known British makes plus AyA who still make competition grade s/s (see AyA model 56), and many other continental makers.  Augustin Aranzabal (boss of of AyA) and I believe Ignacio Ugartechea were both champion 'live pigeon' shots (the sport remained legal overseas after it was banned here).  Early clays competitions were designed to take the place of live pigeon shooting.  As far as I know live pigeon competitions were nearly always shot with s/s.

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    8 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

    That is correct - with exceptions/complications;

    There were from circa 100 years ago (and still are) a few very expensive British o/us intended for game shooting (think Purdey, Woodward, Boss, Westley Richards, Beesley, Lancaster who all made them).  They pre-dated the clays o/u popularity.  Geoffrey Boothroyd wrote a book on the British ones I believe.

    Early clays took over from 'live pigeon' which many famous gunmakers supplied competition guns for - all well known British makes plus AyA who still make competition grade s/s (see AyA model 56), and many other continental makers.  Augustin Aranzabal (boss of of AyA) and I believe Ignacio Ugartechea were both champion 'live pigeon' shots (the sport remained legal overseas after it was banned here).  Early clays competitions were designed to take the place of live pigeon shooting.  As far as I know live pigeon competitions were nearly always shot with s/s.

    They were and invariably long barrelled SxS's

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    Shot at Christmas on a pheasant shoot and side by sides outnumbered o/u have shot one for a number of years now for all my game shooting and would never go back far more pleasant to use.

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    On ‎10‎/‎01‎/‎2019 at 23:57, Graham M said:

     Do all new shooters want a Rambo type semi-auto with a dozen shots in the magazine or what 

    Aaargghh the R word!

    I enjoy immensely my section 1, multi shot, shotguns. For the sport they are intended for, they are the right tool for the job. I use a 3 shot pump for rough shooting, empty chamber and 2 in the magazine, a safe way to carry in the field, For clays I use semi autos, pumps and double guns as the mood takes me, all my doubles are side by side, mostly historic over a hundred years old. I do not own an over and under as (personally) I find them unwieldy. I enjoy all my shooting activities in a safe manner, I take all gun usage seriously and enjoy the company of like-minded individuals in whatever sport we are partaking. I do not (with the exception of safety related issues) criticise others within the shooting arena, there are enough doing that already

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    Interesting original post which i think is true unfortunately Most new shooters going to clay grounds get handed a o/u and are told its easier to use which is probably true S/S have dropped in price But will never get rid of my aya no3 magnum love shooting it Also have browning auto but prefer the s/s Just something nice putting 2 cartridges into the s/s and closing it 👍

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    Interesting thread

    Fashions come and go then return  ie music  dress sense  house designs and so on

    For years the 16g was well out of fashion and nearly extinct along with the dinasaurs

    Now look what's happening There is a big reasurgance of the 16g along with the cartridge companies following on and Browning flooding the market with their new B525 16g and other companies following on and more companies will bring their models out very shortly ( just keep an eye on Beretta )

    I think it was Braithewaites Mid last year that quoted that nearly all guns sold in thier first six months of trading were nearly all 16g shotguns

    The sxs will make a similar comeback in the future when all these new   o/u advocates suddenly think their guns are getting heavier and heavier and all look similar to the gun next to them on either side and decide they want something different like a nice English style gun that does'nt weigh like an anchor and looks stylish and traditional like their forfathers used to use and something they were brought up with as a kid shooting with their dad or grandad as i was

    I myself sold my last two sxs in the last year to concentrate on my o/u shooting as i kept reverting to my sxs's

    I use a 16g o/u amonst other o/u but am now looking at english 16g sxs's as it's inherent in me and cannot get it out of my system

    Another observation i have come aware of is these new kids on the block  Although nice to see young kids entering the shooting scene

    But they have been on coached clay shoots  ( paid for by dad or grandad and are on the short list for the olympics ) come to driven days full of **** on how good they are and go on to suggest they will wipe ones eyes and are not open to advice then fall flat on their ****

    Shooting clay discs does not make one a good shot on live game as has  been proved out on the field time and time again

    Edited by sabel25

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    Interesting.  My son (11) has started shooting this year and has no interest in clayshooting and only wants to shoot Vermin and game but has been taken clay shooting as a way to learn, he’s been taught by the local gun smith who is an excellent game coach and he is making progress, is safe and will be coached on peg at this years keepers day.

    He’s shortly going to be strong enough for a double to replace his single 20 bore, so .. ou or sxs?

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    11 minutes ago, PPP said:

    He’s shortly going to be strong enough for a double to replace his single 20 bore, so .. ou or sxs?

    My inclination would be to let him choose (probably in conjunction with his coach).  If he has what he thinks is most suited - it will be better for his confidence - and confidence is important.  I would not try to 'push' him to either.

    6 hours ago, sabel25 said:

    Shooting clay discs does not make one a good shot on live game as has  been proved out on the field time and time again

    That is certainly very true!

    Edited by JohnfromUK

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    On 11/01/2019 at 09:50, panoma1 said:

    They are not obsolete! Best SBS guns are still very much sought after, lower grade, foreign, butchered, altered, pitted, thin barrels, carp woodwork and shortened barrels with little or no chokes.....are not!

    I would be in the market for an English, best, SLE, (or BLE) 12 or 20 in top original condition, if anyone has one knockin about? 😇

    Pm on the way

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    I shoot game with a sxs wear tweeds etc all traditional. It's nice to wear and shoot a suitable gun.

    If was going modern fabrics walked up type game shooting like in mainland Europe I'd use a semi auto as it's light to carry.

    Oy time I use over and under is if it's a biggish day late season where I'll be banging lots of 32g carts through a gun. I just don't want the gun getting hammered or my shoulder.

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    7 hours ago, sabel25 said:

    Now look what's happening There is a big reasurgance of the 16g along with the cartridge companies following on and Browning flooding the market with their new B525 16g and other companies following on and more companies will bring their models out very shortly ( just keep an eye on Beretta )

     

    I hope you’re right although I haven’t noticed the cartridge companies expanding their range. I shoot clays with a mate (he uses a 16g, me a 12g) and we both take regularly take our side by sides for a bit of fun. Try getting a 65mm Clay cartridge for a 16g! I think Hull do one but at double the price of 12g. To be honest I’d love a 16g but cost is prohibitive for me at the moment.

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    OBSOLETE NO But definitely OBSOLESCENT!

    There will always be followers of the SXS especially the older hand made beauties. 

    I just cant see why the 16g is to become popular. Just sold mine. Cartridges are a stupid price compered with 12g

    I hear the argument that 16 is so light and handy and can shoot satisfactory loads but most are at least 6pounds in weight. I have a 125 year old 12g hammergun that also weighs in at 6 pounds and can shoot 12g loads!

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    I have shot for most of my life with side by sides, having owned (and now regretted selling, mainly for financial reasons) some lovely English guns. It is only in the latter years that I've used O/Us and find that I shoot reasonably well with them, if not a bit better than previously. As Dave at Kelton has rightly said, the fit of an O/U is not quite so critical as that of a SxS so I suspect that my SxSs were not quite right in terms of fit, exacerbated probably by my shooting style, or lack of it. In the early days, however, we didn't even know too much about chokes, let alone gun fit, but just made do with what we had.

    My 16g Lincoln Prestige (proper scaled down action) and my 20g Macnab Highlander are my 'go to' guns, but the 16g AYA still has its place when walking up or I feel the need to 'itch' the side by side 'scratch'. For me, the side by side still retains the pleasure of ownership, feels lively in the hand and is a joy to use. I couldn't and have never been without at least one in the cabinet.

    There are some real bargains to be had right now in the S/H SxS market so no excuse for everyone not to own one (or two).

    So if anyone has an old 16g Dickson round action that is taking up space in their cabinet going for peanuts, please let me know. One can but dream.

    OB

    Edited by Old Boggy

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    My  S XS stable takes in 3 grades of British made shotguns, all in 12 bore.    

    (1)  Army and  Navy hammer gun marked (K Quality) ie keeper quality made in 1898 and thanks to Glasgow University I know it cost £7 new.  I bought it from a keeper friend in 1960 for £15 and until 3 years ago it had only cost me 3d (about 1 1/2 pence for a firing pin spring)  three years ago the forend loop needed re-soldering which cost £70.

     

    (2)  W R Pape of Newcastle what appears to be a top quality boxlock ejector with sleeved barrels built in 1914

     

    (3)  Pride of place and oldest is John Dickson round action from 1889 No 1 of a pair  but not built as a pair, rumour has it that No 2 saw service with WW2 home guard and disappeared. The Dickson R/A is a most understated gun , unsurpassed by even London Best.   Superb balance and handling and virtually a self opener they dont come any better in my opiNION.

     

    Blackpowder

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    1 hour ago, Old Boggy said:

    I have shot for most of my life with side by sides, having owned (and now regretted selling, mainly for financial reasons) some lovely English guns. It is only in the latter years that I've used O/Us and find that I shoot reasonably well with them, if not a bit better than previously. As Dave at Kelton has rightly said, the fit of an O/U is not quite so critical as that of a SxS so I suspect that my SxSs were not quite right in terms of fit, exacerbated probably by my shooting style, or lack of it. In the early days, however, we didn't even know too much about chokes, let alone gun fit, but just made do with what we had.

    My 16g Lincoln Prestige (proper scaled down action) and my 20g Macnab Highlander are my 'go to' guns, but the 16g AYA still has its place when walking up or I feel the need to 'itch' the side by side 'scratch'. For me, the side by side still retains the pleasure of ownership, feels lively in the hand and is a joy to use. I couldn't and have never been without at least one in the cabinet.

    There are some real bargains to be had right now in the S/H SxS market so no excuse for everyone not to own one (or two).

    So if anyone has an old 16g Dickson round action that is taking up space in their cabinet going for peanuts, please let me know. One can but dream.

    OB

    As an aside, an elderly gentleman farmer of my acquaintance has shot all his days with a 16 bore Dickson round-action that was made for his mother.

    I was speaking to him last month about the gun and he told me that it was manufactured to specification with a full-length tapered left barrel and a "normally" choked muzzle-constriction right barrel, although I cannot for the life of me work out why?

    I will catch up with him in the next week or two, and would like to have a look at the gun, and will also have a blether with Mark next time I am up in Dunkeld to see if he can dig anything up in the Dickson records.

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    19 minutes ago, Jonno243 said:

    As an aside, an elderly gentleman farmer of my acquaintance has shot all his days with a 16 bore Dickson round-action that was made for his mother.

    I was speaking to him last month about the gun and he told me that it was manufactured to specification with a full-length tapered left barrel and a "normally" choked muzzle-constriction right barrel, although I cannot for the life of me work out why?

    I will catch up with him in the next week or two, and would like to have a look at the gun, and will also have a blether with Mark next time I am up in Dunkeld to see if he can dig anything up in the Dickson records.

    Ball/slug in left, shot in right.

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    33 minutes ago, Blackpowder said:

    My  S XS stable takes in 3 grades of British made shotguns, all in 12 bore.    

    (1)  Army and  Navy hammer gun marked (K Quality) ie keeper quality made in 1898 and thanks to Glasgow University I know it cost £7 new.  I bought it from a keeper friend in 1960 for £15 and until 3 years ago it had only cost me 3d (about 1 1/2 pence for a firing pin spring)  three years ago the forend loop needed re-soldering which cost £70.

     

    (2)  W R Pape of Newcastle what appears to be a top quality boxlock ejector with sleeved barrels built in 1914

     

    (3)  Pride of place and oldest is John Dickson round action from 1889 No 1 of a pair  but not built as a pair, rumour has it that No 2 saw service with WW2 home guard and disappeared. The Dickson R/A is a most understated gun , unsurpassed by even London Best.   Superb balance and handling and virtually a self opener they dont come any better in my opiNION.

     

    Blackpowder

    Any chance of a photo of your Pape. I had a 16g Best quality boxlock Pape BLE built in 1901 and also another BLE built in 1911.

    No doubt that you have received details of your Pape from the current owner of the Pape records, Rodney Ford.

    OB

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    1 hour ago, MrPhantom said:

    I hope you’re right although I haven’t noticed the cartridge companies expanding their range. I shoot clays with a mate (he uses a 16g, me a 12g) and we both take regularly take our side by sides for a bit of fun. Try getting a 65mm Clay cartridge for a 16g! I think Hull do one but at double the price of 12g. To be honest I’d love a 16g but cost is prohibitive for me at the moment.

    Personally, I can't see it. It is now getting increasingly difficult to get any 12 bore game cartridges in 7s. I'm guessing but can well imagine that there is a bigger demand for 7s in 12 than there is for anything in 16 bore. Additionally, it's of no consequence how many new 16s flood the market if the relatively few who fancy one can't either obtain or afford to buy anything to feed it. For the 16 to flourish the cartridge makers will need to see a greater profit from making those rounds than they do with the  12 bore 7s at the moment and I reckon that demand isn't going to see that occur.

    It's many years since I shot there, but back along in Germany the 16 was the German 12. Can't help but wonder that if any UK producers export cartridges there, how much do they charge for the 16s should they still be as popular as previously.

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    Well I have given it to a member of the syndicate for his son to use. He is a big lad and wanted a S/S so hopefully he will like the gun.

    Apologies to the lad who thought I was criticising his semi-auto. It wasn't a criticism of the type of gun, just the styling of those that I saw on the wall of the gunshop; very aggressive looking things with 8 shot magazines. If you can't hit it with the first two shots what use are the other six :P (yes i know that they are used in practical shotgun comp's)

    I suppose it's  going on through all types of shooting where tradition seems to be pushed away in favour of modernity........ nice wooden stocks being replaced by plastic. Don't get me wrong a composite stock can be better in a rough environment, but some of the nasty plastic articles that I see on some rifles are nothing more than money saving rubbish that are fitted just so that the manufacturers can say that they actually come with a stock. Most people replace them with something better. 

    Now, looking forward to that nice English S/S.:good:

     

     

     

     

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    My 16g SxS is my favourite gun. It's almost criminal what you can pick up a SxS for. 

    I find o/u very good if the target follows a consistent path.. Correcting any error in swing can be harder than with a SxS. 

     

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