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Lloyd90

Teds progress

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So what did he get wrong?

you hunted him on a runner he couldn’t find I’m assuming that he was on a blood scent 

then later when he picked up a blood scent and went on to hunt it and find it 

I’m thinking the fault here is your not reading the dog and you have to gain some trust I’m sure his body language changed when he found the scent of the runner 

have you trained him to be steady to deer ? 

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There is nothing wrong with the dog by the sounds of it. He may be better than you think. You need to tune into him and likely danger scenarios a bit more.

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I did say Lloyd that on a shoot day it all goes out the window.

Ted seems to have done well in all, he is still young and learning. Never met dog yet that at one time or another hasn't pegged a bird. Or chased a deer even if recalling straight away off it.

Keep up with it and he will be good dog.

Best way to ruin a good dog take it beating. I and friends start the season with very good dogs, by the end the dogs know the land and where birds are likely to be etc and start to think they know best. This is where stopping on whistle is key.

 

 

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39 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

So what did he get wrong?

you hunted him on a runner he couldn’t find I’m assuming that he was on a blood scent 

then later when he picked up a blood scent and went on to hunt it and find it 

I’m thinking the fault here is your not reading the dog and you have to gain some trust I’m sure his body language changed when he found the scent of the runner 

have you trained him to be steady to deer ? 

 

He pee’d off having a chase when out of sight and then later he might have picked the scent (although I don’t think he did I think he just went on a jolly) but he can’t just fly off as he pleases 🤷‍♂️

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26 minutes ago, figgy said:

I did say Lloyd that on a shoot day it all goes out the window.

Ted seems to have done well in all, he is still young and learning. Never met dog yet that at one time or another hasn't pegged a bird. Or chased a deer even if recalling straight away off it.

Keep up with it and he will be good dog.

Best way to ruin a good dog take it beating. I and friends start the season with very good dogs, by the end the dogs know the land and where birds are likely to be etc and start to think they know best. This is where stopping on whistle is key.

 

 

 

Bang on mate, I guess I just take it to heart. 

 

He was going very well on the last part, flushed plenty birds and sat lovely until he peed off. 

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8 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

 

Bang on mate, I guess I just take it to heart. 

 

He was going very well on the last part, flushed plenty birds and sat lovely until he peed off. 

Lloyd , youre answering some of your own questions about ted  , flushed plenty of birds , youre working a young dog had him out how many hours , stamina and deafness comes into it , how long would a run be in a trial then job done , don't expect to much of ted , little and often as they say every day is a training day .

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Lloyd I have driven home home after s shoot with my chest puffed out at how well my dog worked and comments off others on how good he was. On the flip side I've also driven home almost biting my own tongue off with frustration at how bad he was, like a naughty kid on blue smarties. Gotten him home and told my wife of all the woes of my day. She has on occasion said I thought I'd give him a treat last night and fed him god only knows left overs. Dog was like a coiled spring. That don't happen anymore but he still has his moments as they all do.

Main thing is enjoy it and take pride in the good points forget the bad points and just keep.on training him.

Edited by figgy

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2 hours ago, figgy said:

Lloyd I have driven home home after s shoot with my chest puffed out at how well my dog worked and comments off others on how good he was. On the flip side I've also driven home almost biting my own tongue off with frustration at how bad he was, like a naughty kid on blue smarties. Gotten him home and told my wife of all the woes of my day. She has on occasion said I thought I'd give him a treat last night and fed him god only knows left overs. Dog was like a coiled spring. That don't happen anymore but he still has his moments as they all do.

Main thing is enjoy it and take pride in the good points forget the bad points and just keep.on training him.

^^^^^ This. Mine has many faults but its so much better to have him with faults than trying to flush and pick up birds without him. :lol:

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For what's it's worth and this is only my opinion and not meant any criticism at all as I am well aware of training a dog. 

I would not let Ted work freely in tall cover if you cannot see him, that in itself gives you a problem. 

I would also be reluctant to send him for any runner's just yet as he is still only a nipper. 

Take a short step back and practice the stop whistle untill you are completly confident he will stop every time. 

So far I think you have done really well with Ted you just need to polish the rough bit's your almost there. 👍👍

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Was he out all day? Thats quite a long, tiring day for a young dog around 16 months old now (I guess) 

Maybe he started to get tired. I find that effects my spaniel a lot, if he gets tired it all goes to pot. 

Maybe worth trying just doing a couple of drives until hes more established. I don't think he done bad, especially for his age! 

Edited by Pigeonshooter22

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On 28/10/2019 at 17:16, Pigeonshooter22 said:

Was he out all day? Thats quite a long, tiring day for a young dog around 16 months old now (I guess) 

Maybe he started to get tired. I find that effects my spaniel a lot, if he gets tired it all goes to pot. 

Maybe worth trying just doing a couple of drives until hes more established. I don't think he done bad, especially for his age! 

No mate, after chasing in the first few mins he spent the main part on the lead, then had a 2-3 min run when he flushed, then the final bit when he went awol.

 

We were out from about 10-1pm 

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Not much happening lately, just practicing the stop whistle and getting out after Ted and ensuring he stops exactly where I blew it... and ensuring that **** is firmly parked on the floor, none of this hovering nonsence. 

 

I have no idea how harsh or firm or whatever others are when teaching this, but can only assume I have not been firm enough. To be fair 99% of the time he is stopping bang on, on the spot, so is mostly being given lots of praise and fuss... it's hard to train for it going wrong when he keeps doing what he is supposed to in test conditions :/ 

 

On brighter news, Teds mother ran in a trial today, she was in a 3 dog run off for 1st place but placed 3rd so the run off wasn't as good as her main runs, but still very good. If she had placed 1st she would have been made up to a FTCH... bit of luck for next time perhaps. 

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On 31/10/2019 at 20:42, Lloyd90 said:

Not much happening lately, just practicing the stop whistle and getting out after Ted and ensuring he stops exactly where I blew it... and ensuring that **** is firmly parked on the floor, none of this hovering nonsence. 

 

I have no idea how harsh or firm or whatever others are when teaching this, but can only assume I have not been firm enough. To be fair 99% of the time he is stopping bang on, on the spot, so is mostly being given lots of praise and fuss... it's hard to train for it going wrong when he keeps doing what he is supposed to in test conditions  

 

On brighter news, Teds mother ran in a trial today, she was in a 3 dog run off for 1st place but placed 3rd so the run off wasn't as good as her main runs, but still very good. If she had placed 1st she would have been made up to a FTCH... bit of luck for next time perhaps. 

A friend looks up to a well known gundog trainer, who apparently says to use the stop whistle around feed time as well. He'll put their feed down and stop them on the way to the bowl, then stop them while eating etc. I tried it on my young spaniel for the first time this morning to see how he got on.. and he sat each time.. his stop whistle is honestly 99% perfect,  yet he'll still try and chase if he can or it flies low. Its just training that 1% when excitement is so high, its so difficult to proof commands in all these situations to make them 100%... A old fashioned picker upper told me all his have just learnt as they get older if they fly theres no point chasing so stop or turn themselves, if only.. 

Excellent about his mum! 

Edited by Pigeonshooter22

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OK TIN HAT TIME. The (proper) use of an E collar may help in this situation as the dog knows you have no control over him at a distance.

If used correctly an E collar will only be applied once or twice before the dog gets the message and then its taken of the dog a put and away in a draw to collect dust.

Its not a short cut but it could be better than for ever getting on the dogs case every time you go out or deciding to leave the dog at home.

Only my take on this.

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4 hours ago, scutt said:

OK TIN HAT TIME. The (proper) use of an E collar may help in this situation as the dog knows you have no control over him at a distance.

If used correctly an E collar will only be applied once or twice before the dog gets the message and then its taken of the dog a put and away in a draw to collect dust.

Its not a short cut but it could be better than for ever getting on the dogs case every time you go out or deciding to leave the dog at home.

Only my take on this.

 

Tin hat indeed ... funny how some will think nothing of giving a god a scruffing, a wack or an ear pull, but not want to use an e-collar. 

 

At present I am avoiding using one, as I worry that if associated with game could put the dog off. However I am open minded about their (correct) use... and know many American's use them to good effect, when used properly. I really do stress when used properly for anyone who ever reads this thread and thinks an e-collar is what they need... DO NOT GET ONE unless you know 1000000% what you are doing. 

 

As for deer chasing... well if that continues I can not see many other options, as it is very difficult to setup that sort of situation in training. I will continue to proof the stop whistle in the hope that this will continue in every situation. To be fair on his most recent chase I did not even see him so could not stop him or recall... I do wonder if he would have stopped it told... I would rather he just didn't chase again and not have to find out :lol: 

 

I believe Martin Deeley (an American) does a lot of guidance on the correct use of an e-collar however I haven't read or seen much of it, as said at present I am continuing to work extensively on the basics. There is a very long thread over on the gundog training forum about e-touch (collar) training, I am a few pages in but plenty more to read. 

7 hours ago, Pigeonshooter22 said:

A friend looks up to a well known gundog trainer, who apparently says to use the stop whistle around feed time as well. He'll put their feed down and stop them on the way to the bowl, then stop them while eating etc. I tried it on my young spaniel for the first time this morning to see how he got on.. and he sat each time.. his stop whistle is honestly 99% perfect,  yet he'll still try and chase if he can or it flies low. Its just training that 1% when excitement is so high, its so difficult to proof commands in all these situations to make them 100%... A old fashioned picker upper told me all his have just learnt as they get older if they fly theres no point chasing so stop or turn themselves, if only.. 

Excellent about his mum! 

 

Yes mate, I also find that... mine will also sit 100% even when eating... however when he has flushed a bunch of birds, adrenaline is pumping and shots are going off, the ears go deaf an its very tempting... its very very hard to replicate those situations... you can throw dummies and balls past a dog until the cows come home but its not the same proofing. 

 

I have seen some lads train HPR's where they just release bird after bird for the dog to chase, until it learns it can't catch and stops trying... spaniels however, I feel are the eternal optimist :lol: 

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Not much to update, we have been doing some training up the mountain's of Wales, hunting through Bracken for balls, using a remote powered rabbit on a line to simulate a flush and the starter pistol to which Ted has been 100% steady. 

 

I think rough shooting isn't as hectic as a driven shoot as there aren't artificial numbers of birds with so many at once. Although I paid to join a driven shoot this year, I am missing this Saturday to instead drive down to West Wales where I have been invited on a days rough shooting instead. 

 

I hope it is good as I have been offered a spot on the syndicate for next year. It is a small rough shoot that has been setup by lads who want to train their dogs rather than just being focused on the shooting so we shall see how we get on :) 

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On 25/10/2019 at 22:30, redleg in kale said:

Lloyd no criticism intended, over the last eight /nine months you and ted have come  on leaps and bounds in both learning and mistakes, now you have come to a point you have to decide trialing or shooting dog .make no mistake they are both different animals  . field trialing  you will always be on the very edge that's the way the spaniel is trained ,as they say a failed trialing dog  can make a excellent shooting dog but not vice versa , you have put a lot of work into ted upto now go along the trialing lines he is still a young dog if he does not make it youll have a good shooting dog just don't mix them both at this stage in his training.  

This is correct. If you plan to actively campaign him in trials, resist the urge to shoot over him yourself. Even with someone watching him, if he takes a step, moves, loses focus can you really trust your partner to read him like you can and correct it?  Standing on a peg and trialling are different sports, if you want a utility dog, you’ll need to accept he’s unlikely as a jack of all trades to be a master of trials. 

Ted is still very young despite his experience. You enjoy your training and that is clear. My advice: leave him behind this season, trial him next year and if you decide not to continue on the trialling you’ve got a wonderful peg dog, beating dog and picking up dog you can enjoy for the next 10 seasons. If you shoot over him now, you may find yourself in two seasons time wondering had you’d not been so keen to use him, if he’d be a FTW etc?. 
 

 

 

 

Edited by wj939

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On 31/10/2019 at 20:42, Lloyd90 said:

Not much happening lately, just practicing the stop whistle and getting out after Ted and ensuring he stops exactly where I blew it... and ensuring that **** is firmly parked on the floor, none of this hovering nonsence. 

 

I have no idea how harsh or firm or whatever others are when teaching this, but can only assume I have not been firm enough. To be fair 99% of the time he is stopping bang on, on the spot, so is mostly being given lots of praise and fuss... it's hard to train for it going wrong when he keeps doing what he is supposed to in test conditions  

 

On brighter news, Teds mother ran in a trial today, she was in a 3 dog run off for 1st place but placed 3rd so the run off wasn't as good as her main runs, but still very good. If she had placed 1st she would have been made up to a FTCH... bit of luck for next time perhaps. 

You’re now at the stage he’s largely learnt a difference in training and proper shooting. Knock full days driven shooting on the head, he’s over excited. Allow some more time to mature and focus on doing live training days and rough shooting. You’ll have chance to proof the dog in a live, but also controlled shooting environment. Again, don’t be too keen to shoot over him yourself. I’ve not seen one handler yet who can shoot well and watch his dog simultaneously. 

one faultless drive and back in the box is better than one faultless drive and three with faults. 
loving the read, keep posting! 

Edited by wj939

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18 minutes ago, wj939 said:

You’re now at the stage he’s largely learnt a difference in training and proper shooting. Knock full days driven shooting on the head, he’s over excited. Allow some more time to mature and focus on doing live training days and rough shooting. You’ll have chance to proof the dog in a live, but also controlled shooting environment. Again, don’t be too keen to shoot over him yourself. I’ve not seen one handler yet who can shoot well and watch his dog simultaneously. 

one faultless drive and back in the box is better than one faultless drive and three with faults. 
loving the read, keep posting! 

 

Cheers mate 👍🏻 

That’s why I’ve sacked off my days driven shooting this sat and am instead driving down to West Wales where I won’t shoot I will only be working the dog. 

The bloke running it is a very experienced trialler so hopefully all goes to plan :) 

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i'm reading your posts and looking at all the mistakes i made with mine ,took a lot of work to try and put it right.

you think you have control till you end up in a pile of birds and it all goes to rat ****.

looks like your on the right track protecting the dog before its too late.

friend of mine keeps saying if it was easy everyones dog would be brilliant :)

keep it up i enjoy your reports.

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Not a lot to report back lately. 

 

I spend a lot of today on the road, had the dog in a flight pen, getting him back steady. Hunting him around with birds being flushed nearby.

 

 

Short lesson then out in the real field hunting, Ted knows the difference between out in the real field and not. Hunting thick cover he flushed a pheasant and tried to chase but was quickly caught and dragged back. 

Then hunted on for a bit through some thick cover and he had a good contact flush. He stepped (perhaps to get a better view... yeah right) ... but stopped and sat well. He was praised and lead on end of lesson. 

 

 

I am sure it would be easier to just had a dog that chases game, doesn't stop to the flush or shot and runs in... at least he would progress well with his hunting :lol: 

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On 27/10/2019 at 13:50, B725 said:

For what's it's worth and this is only my opinion and not meant any criticism at all as I am well aware of training a dog. 

I would not let Ted work freely in tall cover if you cannot see him, that in itself gives you a problem. 

I would also be reluctant to send him for any runner's just yet as he is still only a nipper. 

Take a short step back and practice the stop whistle untill you are completly confident he will stop every time. 

So far I think you have done really well with Ted you just need to polish the rough bit's your almost there. 👍👍

This 😊

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On 25/11/2019 at 00:09, Lloyd90 said:

Not a lot to report back lately. 

 

I spend a lot of today on the road, had the dog in a flight pen, getting him back steady. Hunting him around with birds being flushed nearby.

 

 

Short lesson then out in the real field hunting, Ted knows the difference between out in the real field and not. Hunting thick cover he flushed a pheasant and tried to chase but was quickly caught and dragged back. 

Then hunted on for a bit through some thick cover and he had a good contact flush. He stepped (perhaps to get a better view... yeah right) ... but stopped and sat well. He was praised and lead on end of lesson. 

 

 

I am sure it would be easier to just had a dog that chases game, doesn't stop to the flush or shot and runs in... at least he would progress well with his hunting  

Hi Lloyd 

If you can get him back in the flight pen a few times I'm sure it will help. 

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Part 25: Back in the race.

 

 

2 hours and 30 mins drive this morning to deepest darkest West Wales, where I had been invited for a day training and shooting over the dogs.

First up was Ted as we did young dogs first. I hunted him through a small field where he found a bird, but it seemed reluctant to flush. He found it, pushed it out of cover and it walked off in-front of him at a leisurely pace. I blew the stop and he sat and just watched the bird walk off  I then gave him the hunt command in the opposite direction, and he listened to me lovely, took off hunting well. We did a bit of a loop around and tried to get onto the bird again. This time Ted found it after doing a big circle and he went into a full blown point, he had found it but it didn't move again. I gave him encouragement and he pushed it out of cover again but it would not fly. He however remained very steady and just watched it off again. He was given lots of praise and hunted on in the opposite direction.

After a small hunt down some reedy wet ground, he then flushed another bird, this time with a solid flush where he drove the bird out  bird was hit hard and he didn't even look like he considered moving. He was rewarded by being sent for the retrieve, which he picked very well and delivered back to hand, releasing on command 

After this I put him away in the car for a bit to cool his head off and give him a break. I then picked up my 20 bore and I got to shoot a few birds over other people's dogs whilst they worked them  I missed the first bird... good training for the dog to think the birds don't always get hit (that's my excuse) ... however I hit several after that so wasn't too embarrassed.

After this I got Ted out again for another run, he had his head in the game now and hunted a patch of reeds very well, he was pulling a bit and I told him off and he tightened up, and had a cracking hunt for me. We came right to the end of the patch and nothing had flushed, so thought there were no birds in this spot, only for Ted to dive head first into a big clump of cover right at the end and drive a bird out right off his nose. I was taken by surprise and whilst fumbling to get out of the way of the gun, spat my whistle out of my mouth...although not to worry... Ted had parked his bum flat on the ground the moment he pushed out the bird  ... sometimes he makes it look like it's easy  the bird was hit nicely and came down about 20 yards out.

In-order to break the chain of his thoughts, instead of sending him for the bird, I called him into heel first, he rushed over to my side and after a pause was sent and picked the bird no bother, which was then retrieved to hand and released on command.

After this, I hunted him on a bit and one of the lads threw out a dead bird that Ted only saw coming over, the gun fired a shot so he thought it was hit, and I left him on the drop, walked out and picked it myself. I then walked back to him, put the lead on and gave him lots of praise.

I put him away in the car with lots of praise and fuss given  ... now to just carry on from that success and keep building on it. You could see after his birds he was buzzing, shaking with adrenaline, so keeping him from bubbling over will be something I will have to look out for.

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Result :good:great control and the training is paying off. 

I shot three today and each time dog retrieved them but I have to use my voice and stopping is not in the equation. In the hide on Monday and he retrieved all birds waiting to be told to go and then taking directions from my hand signals for the hard ones in the field behind.

Well done on your efforts. 

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