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winchester 101 hard to break


chrisp
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I have a winchester 101 that i bought recently ,im very happy with it and seem to shoot well with it 

Only problem is when i have fired both barrels the guns very hard to break (shes easy enough to open when ive only fired one barrel)

Is this normal for a 101 ?

Thanks

 

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Several thing spring to mind .

Broken or sticking striker  / Cases swelling in the chamber , worn extractors   /  Action not cocking quickly enough on opening , this is a not uncommon fault due to wear on the cocking cam which can also have the gun not cocking fully   /loose forend   / barrel wings hard down on the action . Plus a couple of other things that could be a problem . 

Never mind all the advice about taking the stock off and oiling , get it to a competent gunsmith for a good check over . As you have only recently bought it you do not know what , if anything  ,has been done to the gun previously which can cause problems if not done correctly .

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8 hours ago, figgy said:

Sound advice from a gunsmith. Shame you sold all your gear Gunman you could have made a few Bob off folk on here doing odd jobs in your retirement.

Thought about it but all the fuss of licencing , security etc plus the fact I had had enough of gun work and wanted to play with other things .

Dont mind offering advice but thats all these days . 

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I was about to start a thread to ask for advice on a similar problem on a 100 year old SxS.

An English boxlock DTNE, it was being awkward to open after both barrels were shot. If either barrel was shot as a single it was just fine.

 

Would the above diagnosis apply also?

 

 

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Similar but there are differences .

Possibly  a timing problem , that is that the gun is not  starting to cock as soon as the gun is broken .This can be caused by wear on any one of the bearing surfaces on the cocking dogs . It could also be a loose forend .Signs of this are the strikers dragging in the primer .

Another thing to check is that the extractors are not loose or worn and that the extractor cam is functioning correctly when  lifting the extractor .

There is the simple fact that the gun may not like the cases you are using , in so much they are expanding into the chamber so the cam is struggling to lift them , OK with one but two is to much . Add as it an old gun the chambers may need to be re profiled to suit modern cartridges as older guns made for roll turn over cases had a shorter cone and tended to be tight at the front ends . This is assuming the chambers are not pitted at the front ends which can also be a problem .

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Cheers, I will try other cartridges and cast my eyes over anything I can. This first happened today when I took it out for a round of clays. It was fine last week, though thinking about it I was using the same carts then.

I will get it looked at if it persists.

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 A similar thing occurred to a friend's Merkel, changed cartridges, problem sorted. At least a change of cartridges is an easy test.

If it works, you could do the same as him and give me all the offending cartridge make, I shove em through the auto, no problem  !  😄

Edited by Westley
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I used to own a best quality Pape BLE which by design had what I think was known as a single cocking dog (perhaps Gunman can correct me on that) instead of two individual cocking levers protruding from the knuckle of the action. This meant that when both triggers were fired, the pressure in cocking the springs was double, acting on one lever only to cock both springs and seemed excessive. It was OK when only one trigger was fired. I don't think that there was anything at all wrong, but was by design. It appeared that the leverage required was quite great as the single 'dog' did not protrude from the action knuckle but was under and at the front of the action (if that makes sense). Again, perhaps Gunman can confirm what I believe to be the case. There was no doubt a patent taken out for this. I was once told or read (I think In a Dig. Hadoke book) that the 'single cocking dog' was only used on better quality boxlocks, but was never totally convinced as the design seemed a little less straight forward than normal.

OB

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14 hours ago, Westley said:

 A similar thing occurred to a friend's Merkel, changed cartridges, problem sorted. At least a change of cartridges is an easy test.

If it works, you could do the same as him and give me all the offending cartridge make, I shove em through the auto, no problem  !  😄

I had it with a Merkel o/u.  Bottom striker dragging.  Gunsmith adjusted it - (I think the cocking lever) slightly and all is now well.  Mine was worse on some cartridges, but noticeable on all (that I tried).

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6 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

I had it with a Merkel o/u.  Bottom striker dragging.  Gunsmith adjusted it - (I think the cocking lever) slightly and all is now well.  Mine was worse on some cartridges, but noticeable on all (that I tried).

Is your gun the sidelock version  ?  His is now working perfectly with Gamebore, Eley and Express cartridges.

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40 minutes ago, Westley said:

Is your gun the sidelock version  ?  His is now working perfectly with Gamebore, Eley and Express cartridges.

Yes, in fact I have two sidelocks, the 'top of the range' (mechanically) 303E and the 203E, which has similar sidelocks, but a simplified closure and less complex ejector.  The 203 gave the probem, which required adjustment to ensure that cocking started immediately on the very first movement of opening the gun.  IF it was slightly delayed, the bottom barrel firing pin dragged on the primer.

The 303 is a delightful gun, lovely handling and as smooth as silk to operate - better even than an SO Beretta.  Sadly my 303 has a single trigger and I HATE single triggers.  The 203 has similar handling and double triggers, but the opening and closing is a little less 'smooth'.  Both are very good value second hand compared to a Beretta SO.

Sidelock O/U guns are not common.

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I agree entirely with what you say, in fact it was me who taught the lad to shoot, from firing his first shot.  He started with an old Miroku game gun, but always wanted a decent game gun as he had now progressed into joining a game syndicate. He looked at B25 Brownings and EELL Beretta's and even the SO Beretta's, but then I found the Merkel at a local gunshop and he just loved it. He is now quite an established game shooter and has been to some of the top shoots in the Country.  Job done, I think  !

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I took it out today and there were a few times when it was hard to break.

I would fire both barrels,  move the top lever quite normally but then I had to use more force than is right to break the gun. Once broken it opened smoothly and the empty carts seemed to be easy enough to pull free.

It did this on 2 different clay loads, but behaved when I shot some game loads.

 

I'll use it for this weekend's Beaters day, see how it goes.

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It's a side by side in my case.

I did look at the primers, no sign of dragging.

 

EDIT:  I took another look with powerful magnifying glass at the cases saved after the tricky openings and some primers do have fine scratches.  I wish I kept other cases from when there were no problems as a comparison. I'll make sure to do so and see what I find.

Edited by John_R
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