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best size chamber on fibre


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49 minutes ago, propercartridges said:

well as per title i get asked about 3 inch chambers on  2 and 3 quarter     cartridges    does that missing quarter of inch make a difference on fibre i through the question  open to you people on here and hope for your versions   thanks   george

Won’t your R&D budget stretch to a couple of shells to get the facts for yourself?

 

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hello, back in the days when most i know used spanish side by side having 2/3/4inch chambers we used eley grand prix 65mm no problem, i think a 3 inch chambered shotgun with 70mm cartridges should be the same plastic or fibre, are not the new shotguns designed with a cone breech, where the old shotguns had a slight lip if thats the right word, 

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18 hours ago, Smokersmith said:

Won’t your R&D budget stretch to a couple of shells to get the facts for yourself?

 

thats not a problem i just want some other peoples opinion of what happens in that quarter inch void in the chamber and can the overpowder card twist and hence loose  pressure and therefore not give good ballistics     my grandad  used to say its costs nothing to watch and listen

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Hi,

I posted  a photo of a Hull Super Fast Pigeon cartridges'   wads  a while ago.  It showed that they put two fibre wads in their cartridge, which makes it long enough to obturate  even in a 

3 1/2 " chamber.  I have used a lot of them in a 3 1/2 auto  Bennelli, and they work fine.

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11 hours ago, Perazzishot said:

yes it does, was with Nigel Teague last week, both chamber size and bore make a big difference to fibre.

The ideal combination is 2 3/4 chamber for 2 3/4 shell and 18.3 or 18.4 bore. Anything else in his own personal findings can lead to losing up to 25% of the power of the cartridge.

 a very good answer    thank you very much

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11 hours ago, Perazzishot said:

yes it does, was with Nigel Teague last week, both chamber size and bore make a big difference to fibre.

The ideal combination is 2 3/4 chamber for 2 3/4 shell and 18.3 or 18.4 bore. Anything else in his own personal findings can lead to losing up to 25% of the power of the cartridge.

I would think he was referring to bore size..Browning Crown at true bore according to them works best with Fibre...but I anecdoctally think this is all pretty marginal stuff.......I for example have a 2 3/4 chambered browning and a 3 inch browning.....can you tell any difference with a 23/4 black gold in either no is there difference in down range performane/kills...no.......how the heck is 25% performance difference measured??...Chrono at muzzle?....surely the performance should be judged at 40 yards. Alot of top end guns EELL/Heritages etc have 3 inch chambers and I would think 99% of cartridges put through them are 2 3/4 inch.........Would like to see some science etc...but I sure as hell don't feel 'disadvantaged'  and have always shot Fibre.

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19 minutes ago, dougall said:

I would think he was referring to bore size..Browning Crown at true bore according to them works best with Fibre...but I anecdoctally think this is all pretty marginal stuff.......I for example have a 2 3/4 chambered browning and a 3 inch browning.....can you tell any difference with a 23/4 black gold in either no is there difference in down range performane/kills...no.......how the heck is 25% performance difference measured??...Chrono at muzzle?....surely the performance should be judged at 40 yards. Alot of top end guns EELL/Heritages etc have 3 inch chambers and I would think 99% of cartridges put through them are 2 3/4 inch.........Would like to see some science etc...but I sure as hell don't feel 'disadvantaged'  and have always shot Fibre.

thank you for that reply now can i ask you have you done a pattern test with your two different guns with the different chambers   but using the same carts in the different guns and compared the  pattern to each other as  i had heard this this is why i put the question on here    now mr teague made that above statement who works with barells allthe time

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1 hour ago, propercartridges said:

thank you for that reply now can i ask you have you done a pattern test with your two different guns with the different chambers   but using the same carts in the different guns and compared the  pattern to each other as  i had heard this this is why i put the question on here    now mr teague made that above statement who works with barells allthe time

Yes, I have with 3 different guns, but you already know this. So what's happened as the last time we spoke you suggested I shouldn't waste time at the pattern plate but instead just get out and shoot them.

I found this and posted it back in October. Hope you find it of interest:

Just nicked this from Guns On Pegs and it's written by Peter Schwerdt of EJ Churchill:

"For effective obturation fibre wad shells need to be matched to the length of chamber and shot in barrels that are not over bored. Most modern O/U shotguns sold today are over bored at 18.7 and have 3 inch chambers. The sooner clay shooting authorities ban plastic the sooner they will make guns that will suit the obturation for fibre wad cartridges and improve the cartridge itself to make it even more effective. Until that day plastic will always be better for high bird shooting."

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On 01/02/2019 at 12:33, propercartridges said:

well as per title i get asked about 3 inch chambers on  2 and 3 quarter     cartridges    does that missing quarter of inch make a difference on fibre i through the question  open to you people on here and hope for your versions   thanks   george

Fibre wads can mean the typical a fibre wad all by itself just dropped on the powder maybe compressed a little the shot added and crimped, this is the way many manufacturers do fibre.

  This is cheap and simple but it may or may not impact on performance /velocity / patters this as touched on here already , and can be bore chamber sensitive to some extent in some guns.

  If you want reliable fibre wad ammo that crawls all over plastic wadding even beating it you need to do more to ensure effective gas sealing from the very start of the combustion proses.

  Inverted card cups over powder felt then harder fibre wad section and undershot cards give little if any disadvantage to the plas wads, to such loads if you wrap and buffer things get even better.

 Fibre wadding works as well as the attention to detail you give it, as a wad its no better or no worse, and if you add inverted cups with little else you would have good reason to boast they will work in anything and perform better.  Try a few on your equiptment with inverted cups this is the way to go with fibre wads and in itself is a good place to start to sort out any fibre problems that might exist.

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2 hours ago, propercartridges said:

thank you for that reply now can i ask you have you done a pattern test with your two different guns with the different chambers   but using the same carts in the different guns and compared the  pattern to each other as  i had heard this this is why i put the question on here    now mr teague made that above statement who works with barells allthe time

Nope.

I see shotgun patterns & results as a 3d thing and 2d pattern plates answer different questions.........true choke/POA etc which are chocolate kettles........yes I have shot pattern cards no I have not done so with same load in the 2 guns mentioned...........I have shot thousands of pigeons/partridge/pheasants and cannot tell any difference between the 2.

Nigel Teague (whose 3/8ths I love) knows his stuff and I am in no way trying to undermine his knowledge of barrels/chokes all I am saying is in my experience I cannot tell the difference between 23/4 chamber/3 inch chamber similar guns shooting 2 3/4 length cartridges..and I don't give a rats bottom about plastic wads as  I won't use them.

Of course I would be interested if someone wants to conduct something a bit more scientific but I do think this could be over analysis paralysis.......

 

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I have tons of tests an practical examples too and can say that i've always advocate what Nigel Teague said.  I did not find the same level of loss he argue, but is there, especially with fiber wada. Practical example: I used to shoot load of 1,10g X 25.5g in a 20 bore Beretta A303 with a 70mm chamber, when I moved to the SX3 with 76mm barrel the load did not perform as usual. After some testing (proof, pattern, chrony, etc.) I moved it to 1.20 X 26g and is back to normal in terms of consistent kills. For how silly that might seem to the untrained eye, even with plastic wad 6mm will allow gases to escape through the gaps between the wad base and chamber walls reducing speed and disrupting patterns. If you consider the fiber wad (which doesn't expand as much as plastic) you can see how the loss in efficiency is made ( lot less speed and even more pattern disruptions). 

Edited by Continental Shooter
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5 hours ago, wymberley said:

Yes, I have with 3 different guns, but you already know this. So what's happened as the last time we spoke you suggested I shouldn't waste time at the pattern plate but instead just get out and shoot them.

I found this and posted it back in October. Hope you find it of interest:

Just nicked this from Guns On Pegs and it's written by Peter Schwerdt of EJ Churchill:

"For effective obturation fibre wad shells need to be matched to the length of chamber and shot in barrels that are not over bored. Most modern O/U shotguns sold today are over bored at 18.7 and have 3 inch chambers. The sooner clay shooting authorities ban plastic the sooner they will make guns that will suit the obturation for fibre wad cartridges and improve the cartridge itself to make it even more effective. Until that day plastic will always be better for high bird shooting."

Sounds exactly how Nigel explained it last week wouldn't be surprised if the information and testing had come directly from Nigel Teague!

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25 minutes ago, mk70 said:

Has anyone found a brand of fibre cartridge that preformed better than others.

Would a tighter choke help achieve a better pattern in back bored barrels .

I’m using a 525 for mainly sporting clays 

 

Assuming that the cartridge is OK with the more open choke, then it's probably a 'yes'. But if you have a problem to start with then I've found that going right up to X full made no difference whatsoever.

I've not had a back-bored barrel for a little while now so have little or no interest. It's always been a case of what CAN happen with these barrels and fibre as opposed to WILL happen. Even so, initially this was largely rejected as a possibility by many but there now appears to be a sea change of opinion. One can't help but wonder if the introduction of the Browning Crown facilitated this change in any way.

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1 hour ago, mk70 said:

Has anyone found a brand of fibre cartridge that preformed better than others.

Would a tighter choke help achieve a better pattern in back bored barrels .

I’m using a 525 for mainly sporting clays 

 

Only one way to find out.

I tried my nominal bore Benelli with full choke and fiber wad carts, to say I wasn't impressed is an understatement. Poor breaks and no matter how much I tried to center the pattern on a easy clay the breaks were just small bits, not powder puffs you expect. Half choke and same clay ball of dust. Blew its own pattern with tight choke.

My over bored guns were much the same, plastic works great. Some fiber carts may work better.

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