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JohnfromUK

Article on Fibre versus Plastic

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    Perhaps it would be a good first step for the commercial cartridge manufacturers to offer an incentive, in the form of a reduction in price of fibre wad cartridges, or is it just the shooting public who have to fund environmental responsibility?

    And maybe the commercial boys could put some money and effort into developing an environmentally friendly, easily obtainable, safe, reasonably priced, non toxic cartridge?

    But my guess is they won't, as business takes precedent over the environment!

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    32 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

    Perhaps it would be a good first step for the commercial cartridge manufacturers to offer an incentive, in the form of a reduction in price of fibre wad cartridges, or is it just the shooting public who have to fund environmental responsibility?

    And maybe the commercial boys could put some money and effort into developing an environmentally friendly, easily obtainable, safe, reasonably priced, non toxic cartridge?

    But my guess is they won't, as business takes precedent over the environment!

    This is already in action, Gamebore are owned by Kent Cartridges, Gamebore manufactures bismuth shot in the UK and sends it to Kent in North America who manufacture Bismuth cartridges and sell them at the same price as steel cartridges in the North American market! 

    We are being ripped the **** out of in the UK

    Gamebore also manufacture steel shot fibre wad cartridges and sell them in Denmark for various types of shooting not just the 32g 3” duck loads we have on offer. 

     

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    So when they're forced by laws or popular demand they can supply them.

    Typical business of see what the market can stand and squeeze a bit more.

    Hope when we're out of Europe we can get more from round the world like Asia. They already make lots of the non toxic shot and base metal. Have been known for powders for thousands of years so some decent low cost shells shouldn't be to much to ask for.

    See what the likes of Gamebore etc all do then.

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    21 hours ago, johnnytheboy said:

    This is already in action, Gamebore are owned by Kent Cartridges, Gamebore manufactures bismuth shot in the UK and sends it to Kent in North America who manufacture Bismuth cartridges and sell them at the same price as steel cartridges in the North American market! 

    We are being ripped the **** out of in the UK

    Gamebore also manufacture steel shot fibre wad cartridges and sell them in Denmark for various types of shooting not just the 32g 3” duck loads we have on offer. 

     

    I would like to see proof of that cheap bismuth.

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    On 09/02/2019 at 21:41, johnnytheboy said:

    Kent in North America who manufacture Bismuth cartridges and sell them at the same price as steel cartridges in the North American market! 

    Your comments would appear to be wildly at odds with the Kent USA website !

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    On 09/02/2019 at 21:41, johnnytheboy said:

    This is already in action, Gamebore are owned by Kent Cartridges, Gamebore manufactures bismuth shot in the UK and sends it to Kent in North America who manufacture Bismuth cartridges and sell them at the same price as steel cartridges in the North American market! 

    We are being ripped the **** out of in the UK

    Gamebore also manufacture steel shot fibre wad cartridges and sell them in Denmark for various types of shooting not just the 32g 3” duck loads we have on offer. 

     

    This is because of the antiquated CIP regulations for steel shot, I guess Denmark aren't signed up to it. The strange thing is I have bought Remington Nitro Steel in this country with no issues which does not conform. Yet Gamebore will not sell these cartridges to us as we are governed by CIP

     

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    hello, i think we would all be more inclined to use a fibre wad cartridge being shooters who recognize the use of plastics and the detriment to the environment yet i am sure the price for a cheap pigeon cartridge does have a bearing for many, even now so many use a clay 7.5s including myself although i do not shoot much these days, do home loaders find buying plastic or fibre wads a difference in price, ???

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    Yes there is a difference in price, more that you need an overpowder card to sit under the wad. I pay £36 per 1000 for fibre and plastic are about £26

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     You will find fiber and plaswads are priced nearly the same .Have a look on clay game web site.So the likes of game bore are charging use to set up theirs presses for fiber.Thats not  a 1 off it’s every time you buy felt wad cartridges.be it 1000 or 1 box when they bring out this high performance high pheasant load that’s in the pipe line thay will bump the price up even more .

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    Commercial loading machinery can be run much faster loading plastic wads, two or three times faster than when loading fibre. Bought by the container load plastic wads are much cheaper to buy than fibre wads. To produce the volume of cartridges that they need to sell to stay in business the manufacturers have to load predominantly plastic. People only want cheap most of the time. 

    When I used to help out in my mate's shop more than half the people who walked in the buy cartridges first words would be to ask "what's the cheapest...………."

    Edited by Vince Green

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    If gamebores re loading machines are incapable of keeping up when loading fiber .Gamebores answer is put the price up let the shooters pay more .It should be investing better machines or more of them .thay could use some of their vast profits to do this..Before I retired  I worked on machines producing a product .Summer was always a busy time we were asked to work very long hours including weekends.when they invested in modern machinery .We only needed to run 4 days.A lot of our competitors had to close down.

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    35 minutes ago, dipper said:

    If gamebores re loading machines are incapable of keeping up when loading fiber .Gamebores answer is put the price up let the shooters pay more .It should be investing better machines or more of them .thay could use some of their vast profits to do this..Before I retired  I worked on machines producing a product .Summer was always a busy time we were asked to work very long hours including weekends.when they invested in modern machinery .We only needed to run 4 days.A lot of our competitors had to close down.

    it's not just gamebore and it's not just the machine

    try fitting a tight fiber wad into a hull and see if it drops down straight away; most time than not it won't 

    in a factory chain this can cause all sorts of issues and requires more manual intervention than plastic wads will; this also translate in more personelle required to assist in the production

    Aslo, fiber wad require an extra bit of powder to maintain the same pressure/speed as a plastic wad.

    all this drives the fiber wadded cartridges price higher than it does for plastic wad shells.

     

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    20 hours ago, JJsDad said:

     

     

    Your comments would appear to be wildly at odds with the Kent USA website 

     

    There is no prices on the Kent website! 

    We were over their shooting the premium steel cartridges, they were roughly £18-20 a box granted they were 3’ Steel but my opinion is you need to go heavier with steel to get effective range. The bismuth are about £23 a box for 32g 5s, Just cartridges are charging £38 for the same cartridge here in the UK, these cartridges. So a cartridge where the shot is manufactured in the UK and shipped 3800 miles to another manufacturer is £15 a box dearer! 

    This is what the uk consumer should be fighting against! 

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    18 hours ago, Continental Shooter said:

    it's not just gamebore and it's not just the machine

    try fitting a tight fiber wad into a hull and see if it drops down straight away; most time than not it won't 

    in a factory chain this can cause all sorts of issues and requires more manual intervention than plastic wads will; this also translate in more personelle required to assist in the production

    Aslo, fiber wad require an extra bit of powder to maintain the same pressure/speed as a plastic wad.

    all this drives the fiber wadded cartridges price higher than it does for plastic wad shells.

     

    Firstly a plastic wad will not drop down inside a case, It has to be pushed in and seated properly.

    Secondly a fibre wad needs less powder to maintain the same speed and pressure as it doesn't have a compression section like most plastic wads. This is why they perceive to recoil a bit harder.

    The only difference is the 2 part wad needed. And this could be sorted very easily. If or course they really wanted to.

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    6 hours ago, Diss4111 said:

     Firstly a plastic wad will not drop down inside a case, It has to be pushed in and seated properly.

    Secondly a fibre wad needs less powder to maintain the same speed and pressure as it doesn't have a compression section like most plastic wads. This is why they perceive to recoil a bit harder.

    The only difference is the 2 part wad needed. And this could be sorted very easily. If or course they really wanted to.

    For the first point: true, it doesn't fully fall in but it fits in to allow the piston to push it through with minimal and more precise effort.  I am sure George (Propercartridges) could be more precise in confirming this.  I would also advise to watch this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzK3a6JR7z4 pass through to 7:15 and watch till 7:21.  you cna see how easy is to pus a plastic wad in and why is used so widley by manufacturer.  Fiber wad cannot achieve that.

    Second Point: i assume you have actual proof that this is the case? all my tests prove, given very few exceptions, the exact opposite of what you're saying but i am open to see something to the contrary.  This is of course using the same recipe and components including closure height.

    As for the recoli; this is regulated by Newton's 3rd law and is got definitely nothing to do with wads; if you don't believe me .... trust the man himself.

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    I have just been watching this Dave Carrie video of him at the Gamebore factory. They are using a machine there, which they claim is the fastest in the world and it just loads fibre wads. Its running at 15,000 per hour. 

     

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    9 hours ago, Diss4111 said:

    Secondly a fibre wad needs less powder to maintain the same speed and pressure as it doesn't have a compression section like most plastic wads. This is why they perceive to recoil a bit harder.

     

    Not true.

    Plastic needs less powder as it has a more efficient gas seal.

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    If you look at #### pricing, for fibre, wads are similar in price to plastic (£25 v £21 per thousand) but over powder card is £7 per thou which is not needed for plastic, add 10% more powder and you easily get £10 per thousand more in retail cost or £5 per thousand to manufacturer.

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    13 hours ago, Smokersmith said:

    Not true.

    Plastic needs less powder as it has a more efficient gas seal.

    Really? That's not my findings from reloading. Plastic loses energy compressing the piston section. With the exact same load a plastic wad is slower.

     

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    This is a very interesting debate and we can all voice our concerns and opinions , but the fact remains we are a captive market . We have some saying that fibres are more expensive to produce and slower to manufacture , but then we have Gamebore saying their machine loading fibres is the fastest available .

    None of this explains the extortionate prices charged for Game cartridges .

    " We only do small production runs ", "Obviously we use a greater amount of shot" etc., etc., 

    Total marketing rubbish , we sadly are just being ripped off .

    The performance between Fibre and Plastic wadded cartridges is negligable , if we all shot fibres we would have a level playing field and be helping the environment in reducing plastic litter, paper cases are also viable and cheap enough to buy .

    But manufacturers want less hassle and easy money.  

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    I’ve never used cartridges manufactured by George.Everyone who has tried them seems happy with them.If thay became widely available.I will try a couple of thousand.And a lot of people I know would use them.So come one George let’s have more outlets

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    1 minute ago, dipper said:

    I’ve never used cartridges manufactured by George.Everyone who has tried them seems happy with them.If thay became widely available.I will try a couple of thousand.And a lot of people I know would use them.So come one George let’s have more outlets

    Contact George and get a delivered price from him!

    All very easy to do.

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