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New Ceasar Guerini guns


figgy
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9 hours ago, Gordon R said:

I find CG Impact's rather personal pop at Hamster a bit silly. Hamster knows his stuff and CG Impact does nothing to suggest he isn't a troll. Clueless springs to mind.

Thank you :) obviously I make mistakes or at the very least fail to correctly convey what I'm trying to say but in the main I tend to only engage in subjects I know a bit about (usually from direct experimentation).

Beretta for example do more than one factory comb measurement yet have traditionally chosen to market the lower one into this country, this despite the fact that so many people have mentioned the lower comb is not helping things 😐  why they don't read the social media reports or respond to them is anyones guess. I do know that CG for instance failed to even call back (as promised) several times so perhaps they are all so busy they fail to see the importance of the small details. 

I firmly believe that if and when a manufacturer starts seriously offering a slightly higher comb version of their competition models, that the take up would surprise everyone. 

9 hours ago, Fishing Richie said:

I've been reading this thread and totally agree with Gordon R above.

Thank you :) 

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14 hours ago, figgy said:

Just watched The Gun Shop at the shooting show on the GG stand. The gun only has gold leaves. The pictures I saw on Instagram they looked copper colour on the bottom of the action.

The price of £9700.00 is crazy for the same internals as a the other models bar the Invictus.

Have to agree  figgy  I think it's a bit too far both in style and price  Too much gold for me personaly

But maybe it is all part of their strategy  allowing for the fiasco with EU  By the time these guns come to market the £ might be worth half it's value Hence their price :lol:

Be interesting to see how many of these fly off the shelf as it's a big hike up from the likes of the Apex , Forum or Invictus

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4 hours ago, Hamster said:

I firmly believe that if and when a manufacturer starts seriously offering a slightly higher comb version of their competition models, that the take up would surprise everyone. 

 

What surprises me about the lack of response from the distributor is that CG makes a standard rib height trap version of all their competition guns including sideplated Invictus models and the stocks on them have less drop than the sporters. According to the main website they also have the same multichoke barrels as the sporters. I've had limited contact with A-I, mainly in having the gun serviced, but thus far they've always been helpful and accommodating.

I'd bet Ian Coley's or Greenfield's could get a trap gun on demo or organise to have one taken to an open day.

 

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15 minutes ago, Westward said:

What surprises me about the lack of response from the distributor is that CG makes a standard rib height trap version of all their competition guns including sideplated Invictus models and the stocks on them have less drop than the sporters. According to the main website they also have the same multichoke barrels as the sporters. I've had limited contact with A-I, mainly in having the gun serviced, but thus far they've always been helpful and accommodating.

I'd bet Ian Coley's or Greenfield's could get a trap gun on demo or organise to have one taken to an open day.

 

Initial contact was made through Greenfields but after several weeks when nothing seemed to arrive (despite promises) I called them myself, throughout the painful process they repeatedly failed to call back either myself or Scott and I was told in no uncertain terms that they do not do a Trap stock for the Invictus, I was also told by at least one person that something about the action on this model meant that existing Monte Carlo type of trap stocks fitted to their "ascent" models couldn't be fitted (I believe that would have been too high and therefore unsuitable in any case), I know this because I have fitted the 682EX stock onto a std 682E for a giggle and the sight picture is beyond comical. 

I was also told (in a kind of sales spiel) that with the Invictus they had taken into account the fact serious comp shooters tend to like a slightly higher comb and that the model would be perfectly to my liking as is 😐  unfortunately I knew that wasn't the case because I can tell a low stock from 10 paces never mind one whose picture you could clearly see on their web site ! 

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This is the Invictus V but every gun in the entire range has this configuration available: http://www.caesarguerini.it/eng/Over-and-under-competition-shotguns/Invictus-V-Sporting-Trap

Similarly the Ascent option is available right across the range so there's no problem with the Monte Carlo stock either.

#totallyconfused

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1 hour ago, Westward said:

This is the Invictus V but every gun in the entire range has this configuration available: http://www.caesarguerini.it/eng/Over-and-under-competition-shotguns/Invictus-V-Sporting-Trap

Similarly the Ascent option is available right across the range so there's no problem with the Monte Carlo stock either.

#totallyconfused

This all happened about a year ago, perhaps they now do a Trap version although I've yet to see one in the flesh or in magazine article tests.

Interestingly there is no picture of either the std or V spec Invictus Trap models on their website !

Edited by Hamster
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I came to discover clay pigeon shooting after I retired and have only been shooting for about 12months. After taking a lot of advice, reading loads and trying a lot of guns for fit, I finally purchased a 12 month old Beretta 690 Mk 111 Sporter. It was a perfect fit and I loved shooting it. However, after a few months it developed a fault where the 2nd barrel occasionally  wouldn't fire. The trigger couldn't be pulled. This got worse so it was sent back to the distributers for repair. Apparently one of the firing springs had failed. It came back after a couple of weeks but the same thing started to happen again. I then lost confidence in the gun and took it back to the gunshop and after again trying various guns, settled on a 12 month old Caesar Guerini Apex. The gun fitted me just as good as the beretta and I really enjoy shooting it. Being from an engineering background I can see the quality and craftsmanship in both manufacturers. However, with the Beretta the 3 year warranty is not transferable so you only have the warranty given by the shop who are selling  to you. Caesar Guerini give a 10 year warranty and this is transferable from owner to owner for the 10 year period. I confirmed this by contacting A.I. the distributer who I must say I had no problem contacting and getting information from.

As I have said I've only been shooting a short time so I don't know the names of the top competion shooters and what guns they use but if it's like most other sports, golf, tennis, football etc, the top men/women are sponsored. You may be able to buy the same named clubs, rackets etc as the professionals but don't be fooled into thinking you're getting the same equipment. Their equipment is tailored to them. I would have thought that this would be the same in shooting (but I stand being corrected as I have already said I know nothing about the top names). Also it's my belief that if a someone gets to the the top of his/her game using a particular brand then many others follow believing that his/her success is because of the equipment used. Sorry for the length of this post but I think that there are good and bad guns in all makes and models as in other equipment. If you're happy with what you're using why bother with what others think.

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3 hours ago, Hamster said:

This all happened about a year ago, perhaps they now do a Trap version although I've yet to see one in the flesh or in magazine article tests.

Interestingly there is no picture of either the std or V spec Invictus Trap models on their website !

CG's major market has always been America where trap is the most popular discipline, consequently they've built trap guns since day one. Perhaps A-I chose not to stock trap variants for lack of demand here, but what I would do is ring them and ask to speak to Mike Mansfield. He seems to make the commercial decisions and appears to know the products thoroughly. I have to say that I've found him quite communicative and I'm sure he'd clear things up. Some months ago I was there waiting whilst mine was being serviced and Mike showed me some tasty guns (I got a free hat too). He indicated that they will get any standard gun added to the next shipment and even arrange special builds.

 

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Thought this might be of interest to some people, earlier on a clay shooting group on FB in answer to the question

I am shooting over the top of clays, I have an adjustable comb on my beretta, do I need to raise the comb or lower the comb

we have several predictable "answers" from bread and butter shooters and the following from a world champion and renowned coach :

Ben Husthwaite My initial thoughts would be to raise it. But could be a multiple of things wrong and nothing to do with comb height .... but 9/10 it will need raising

It seems to go against the grain but I dare say he knows a thing or two about clay shooting. 

 
Edited by Hamster
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3 hours ago, Hamster said:

Thought this might be of interest to some people, earlier on a clay shooting group on FB in answer to the question

I am shooting over the top of clays, I have an adjustable comb on my beretta, do I need to raise the comb or lower the comb

we have several predictable "answers" from bread and butter shooters and the following from a world champion and renowned coach :

Ben Husthwaite My initial thoughts would be to raise it. But could be a multiple of things wrong and nothing to do with comb height .... but 9/10 it will need raising

It seems to go against the grain but I dare say he knows a thing or two about clay shooting. 

 

That's very interesting. I would have said to lower it but I'm only a worse than mediocre shot with a shotgun (a bit better at .22 target rifle). I tend to shoot over the top and prefer to see virtually no rib on my Browning 325. Am I doing it wrong? How does a higher comb help if you are shooting over the top? Grateful for an explanation.

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Think of it as a notched rear sight and a post foresight on a rifle or pistol.  If you raise the rear sight ( the comb ) which is the only moveable sight, then you have to raise the muzzle ( foresight ) to get the same sight picture as you had before, meaning your shot will go higher. 

If you put a comb raiser on your shotgun it would mean that when you put your cheek on the same place as before, and the butt in the same place as before, you see more rib because you have in effect canted your muzzle up ever so slightly, but it will make a significant difference 30 yards out where your target is. I think! 😀

Someone will have explained it better than me by the time I get back. Off to Malmo, then Crabtree. Have fun. 👍

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10 hours ago, Cumbrian said:

That's very interesting. I would have said to lower it but I'm only a worse than mediocre shot with a shotgun (a bit better at .22 target rifle). I tend to shoot over the top and prefer to see virtually no rib on my Browning 325. Am I doing it wrong? How does a higher comb help if you are shooting over the top? Grateful for an explanation.

This is one of those subjects that can literally take a whole chapter onto itself so not really easy to explain in a sentence, you need to have shot (and missed) thousands of targets, preferably with different guns. 

Ultimately most misses are the result of poor technique, inappropriate method,  poor address, poor pick up, poor application, poor timing, poor lots and lots of things rather than just simple comb height (or indeed "gun fit"). If a man/woman is good enough to have conquered all the little things mentioned, then he/she will invariably hit the target even if the comb is a little on the low side. 

What Ben is cleverly alluding to here is that the obvious is unlikely to be the core reason for this chaps misses over the top. Yes you could raise the comb and on paper at least it will cause the pattern to shift upwards somewhat but his real problems are almost certainly elsewhere. How does Ben know this ? Because the question itself is giving away the chaps knowledge and skill level. 

I posted this because it lends credence to my own oft said and held belief that most combs on most guns are too low for most people. Having a comb that is higher (than what you think you need) can, in the long run, dial out soooo many minor and major faults that "shooting over the top" is less likely simply because.

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12 hours ago, Cumbrian said:

That's very interesting. I would have said to lower it but I'm only a worse than mediocre shot with a shotgun (a bit better at .22 target rifle). I tend to shoot over the top and prefer to see virtually no rib on my Browning 325. Am I doing it wrong? How does a higher comb help if you are shooting over the top? Grateful for an explanation.

In addition to the comments by Hamster above, one of the most common faults is people lifting their head off the stock and when they lift their head they almost always shoot over the top as they lift the muzzle to retain the same sight picture that they are used to seeing.

A higher comb means the eye is less occluded and you have a better field of view, the need to lift your head reduces and so you keep on the line of the target.

You could also just be like Graham Stirzaker, another multiple world champion, and pick up any gun you like and shoot it without fuss or worry, his cheek is never welded onto the stock so doesn't care about the comb height, he's simply aware of the relationship between gun and target and lets talent (lots of it) and timing do the rest.

Going off topic a little bit that is why pattern plates are really a bit rubbish to establish gun fit, they are static and people aim at them and never peek over the top.  A rising incomer or going away target is much better as you still have to move the gun and you get a much more natural behaviour.

 

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4 minutes ago, grrclark said:

In addition to the comments by Hamster above, one of the most common faults is people lifting their head off the stock and when they lift their head they almost always shoot over the top as they lift the muzzle to retain the same sight picture that they are used to seeing.

A higher comb means the eye is less occluded and you have a better field of view, the need to lift your head reduces and so you keep on the line of the target.

You could also just be like Graham Stirzaker, another multiple world champion, and pick up any gun you like and shoot it without fuss or worry, his cheek is never welded onto the stock so doesn't care about the comb height, he's simply aware of the relationship between gun and target and lets talent (lots of it) and timing do the rest.

Going off topic a little bit that is why pattern plates are really a bit rubbish to establish gun fit, they are static and people aim at them and never peek over the top.  A rising incomer or going away target is much better as you still have to move the gun and you get a much more natural behaviour.

 

Excellent post. Well said.

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Many thanks to Hamster for his helpful response, which does make sense to me. I know that I often fail to respect the fundamentals of swing and lead and tend to see the clay as a static target, such as  I am used to at the small bore range. (In my part of the world, very, very few small bore shooters seem even to dabble  in clay pigeon shooting, which is probably a tribute to their good sense in not mixing disciplines. I'm sure that there are some that can combine the two successfully, but I am not one of them, and I am loathe to give up either.)

Another point, which seems to apply to me at least, is angle of pitch. I have smoothed out the toe of the plastic butt plate on my 325, which I think has helped me get the barrels to point less skyward. And when I was using a new 525 recently I found that the new rubber recoil pad had a (relatively) bulging toe that I could not easily get on with, so much so that I had to sell the gun and revert to my old 325. 

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  • 1 month later...

Also, as far as gold leaves go, remember it's a new gun -- the Invictus V also has a 'gold pheasant' when sold in the US, and it's silver in the UK. For all we know, the gun will be plain and decent by the time it's sold here. But, yeah, ~10k for one is a bit silly. Altho, I DO like a bit of creativity on the forend as they did!

Personally, I've been shooting my V "sporting" for over 3 years, and I'm still delighted with it. It looks fine on game, and fine on clays, and I'd never consider changing -- it's also the best value of the range IMO, considering that to get a /good/ sideplated gun in the other big names would cost several grand more.

As far as comb height, I don't know, they feel very, very, very similar to krigoff to me, in fact, even the palm swell grip, and other stock dimensions -- to me, with little experience of shooting K -- looks rather similar, almost like someone inspired themselves from the other :-) :-)

Now as far as the 'high rib' guns, I never got it either, I tried the Ascent a couple of times but coudn't hit a barn door with that configuration. Must be a trap thing.

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Buze they are so similar to a k80 super sport its uncanny.

I had Kreighoff friend bought a Invictus ascent sporting with all self changeable and adjustable bits. I said if my gun broke in a comp I could use his to finish with little noticing the difference to me they were that close in balance and fit. Also more sensible price for what is two tubes and a trigger group with hammers all made by machines.

Let's not forget the machining time will be similar for most manufacturers and cost won't be that dissimilar for the materials. 

I think the last few years the big makes have been at it with pricing for guns and cartridges.

G&g are jumping on that bandwagon too.

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