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Tightest patterning cartridge


EMT
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3 minutes ago, wymberley said:

:good:

In the words of the song, "you can't have one without the other". Yep, the pattern is critical but it is still no good without penetration. The biggest factor for penetration is velocity so, as ever, there is a compomise needed - sufficient of both pattern and velocity - too much bias towards either does not work well.

That's why I reload using #4 (heavier projectile retains energy better)

It's a bit like throwing a hand full of rice and a hand fiull of bricks.

Less projectiles ,but which cause the most damage?

 

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39 minutes ago, gotgcoalman said:

That's why I reload using #4 (heavier projectile retains energy better)

It's a bit like throwing a hand full of rice and a hand fiull of bricks.

Less projectiles ,but which cause the most damage?

 

Can certainly recognise Cookoff's input here - he's right , of course. But it does depend on the quarry size - no matter how much energy per pellet you still need sufficient of them with enough poke to be certain of hitting and damaging a vital organ. Keeping it simple by putting to one side the boundary layer and any threshold requirement, which penetrates further, the No 6 with 1450 at the muzzle or the No 4 with 1075 at the muzzle at 50 yards?

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Little powder, much lead, shoots straight kills dead as the saying goes. Why because you are keeping the speed down and not blowing the pattern. There seems to be a current preoccupation with speed and people now wonder why they have punchy cartridges which are okay in a heavy o/u but not the game gun described. I try to stick with 28 or 30 gm and a traditional cartridge like impax or Grand Prix as I do not shoot at extreme range and they pattern well.

The data is grand prix and impax 1296 ft/sec. compare with say hull high pheasant at 1450ft/sec. subsonic is 1126 ft/sec max so why not stick with impax or Grand Prix or their equivalents? I do accept that the only proof of pattern is at the plate but would start on this gun with the slower cartridges.

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On 17/02/2019 at 10:18, Grandalf said:

The twenty bore kicks like a mule with these up the spout.   They shoot well, very well, but my shoulder is now undergoing damage control treatment...

(Silver pigeon gun).

Admitiadly I use the 30g 5’s in my 12 bore as the 32g loads are too lively for me 

Edited by alastair0903
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2 hours ago, wymberley said:

Can certainly recognise Cookoff's input here - he's right , of course. But it does depend on the quarry size - no matter how much energy per pellet you still need sufficient of them with enough poke to be certain of hitting and damaging a vital organ. Keeping it simple by putting to one side the boundary layer and any threshold requirement, which penetrates further, the No 6 with 1450 at the muzzle or the No 4 with 1075 at the muzzle at 50 yards?

 1.27 inches for No6 and 1.45 inches for No4 into ballistic gel at 50 yards according to Shotshell Ballistic Calculator

On 17/02/2019 at 15:51, EMT said:

Thank you for all your help and advice.

When I had them measured there was .002 in the right and .010 in the left so just over cylinder and 1/4. I would normally shoot 1/2 and 1/2 in my O/U and was a bit worried I might have a few gaps in the pattern with the cylinder barrel past 25 yards. 

I will get a few boxes of the cartridges you have all recommended and give them a go. I will try and take some photos and report back with my findings. 

What was the pellet count within 30 inches at 40 yards for your favourite cartridge for each barrel?

Nominal measurements are a guide, not a definitive and until you pattern the gun, with your favourite cartridge, it could be shooting cyl/cyl or full/full or anywhere inbetween. Before trying a myriad of cartridges, take your current prefered cartridge and pattern it, you might not have a problem.

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36 minutes ago, Dave at kelton said:

Little powder, much lead, shoots straight kills dead as the saying goes. Why because you are keeping the speed down and not blowing the pattern. There seems to be a current preoccupation with speed and people now wonder why they have punchy cartridges which are okay in a heavy o/u but not the game gun described. I try to stick with 28 or 30 gm and a traditional cartridge like impax or Grand Prix as I do not shoot at extreme range and they pattern well.

The data is grand prix and impax 1296 ft/sec. compare with say hull high pheasant at 1450ft/sec. subsonic is 1126 ft/sec max so why not stick with impax or Grand Prix or their equivalents? I do accept that the only proof of pattern is at the plate but would start on this gun with the slower cartridges.

Which is exactly why I've changed to Fiocchi PL32 No.6 as it seems that the slow speed (1240) gives me an even better pattern in the Baikal than the Sporting Pigeon Fiocchi's I was previously using.

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In my No 4 & No 2, 4 cartridges stand out as patterning well, death ray performance and light on the shoulder.

For game, Hull Imperial 28g 6's, Lylvale Supreme Game 30g, 5 & 6's and  Lylvale Power Pigeon 6's ( UK 5-1/2 ).

For pigeon NSI 28g 7-1/2 ( UK 7 ).

For a true picture you'll have to get some cheap rolls of wallpaper and do some pattern testing.

In recent year Impax have gone a bit fierce perhaps to compete in the speed war.

 

 

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I would use the NSI 28g 7 on partridge and early season pheasants no problem. In cyl and quarter.

Have you considered getting it teagued with thin wall chokes. Or selling it and buying another with tighter chokes if you want to shoot high birds.

Your chokes are ideal for normal.biirds on syndicates and farm shoots. 

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9 hours ago, Dave at kelton said:

Little powder, much lead, shoots straight kills dead as the saying goes. Why because you are keeping the speed down and not blowing the pattern. There seems to be a current preoccupation with speed and people now wonder why they have punchy cartridges which are okay in a heavy o/u but not the game gun described. I try to stick with 28 or 30 gm and a traditional cartridge like impax or Grand Prix as I do not shoot at extreme range and they pattern well.

The data is grand prix and impax 1296 ft/sec. compare with say hull high pheasant at 1450ft/sec. subsonic is 1126 ft/sec max so why not stick with impax or Grand Prix or their equivalents? I do accept that the only proof of pattern is at the plate but would start on this gun with the slower cartridges.

Could not agree more, and furthermore it is a preoccupation that seems even more apparent with rifles. I see more and more a quest to push bullets as fast as humanly possible in an effort to flatten trajectory ("I can hold dead on from 0yds to 350yds" blah blah blah), I also see (more and more) deer turning up with the front end written off with massive great holes in them and bruising spread from throat to ribcage.

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10 hours ago, Stonepark said:

 1.27 inches for No6 and 1.45 inches for No4 into ballistic gel at 50 yards according to Shotshell Ballistic Calculator

What was the pellet count within 30 inches at 40 yards for your favourite cartridge for each barrel?

Nominal measurements are a guide, not a definitive and until you pattern the gun, with your favourite cartridge, it could be shooting cyl/cyl or full/full or anywhere inbetween. Before trying a myriad of cartridges, take your current prefered cartridge and pattern it, you might not have a problem.

Without checking I was going to suggest that they'd both be the same, but with just 0.18" in it, that's close enough.

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Guest cookoff013

big shot usually patterns tigher top some extent, it would need more energy to disrupt the flightpath. (that was my understanding,) 

my loads i select and the model i sometimes talk about is 1200-1250fps

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1 hour ago, cookoff013 said:

big shot usually patterns tigher top some extent, it would need more energy to disrupt the flightpath. (that was my understanding,) 

my loads i select and the model i sometimes talk about is 1200-1250fps

Yep, you can see why. If Gotgcoalman could maintain his pattern proportionally, then at  50 yards 1&1/8 oz of 4s will have the necessary to drop a cock pheasant cleanly - or even if he couldn't quite do so as there is some leeway but energy is at about the limit if one accepts the recognised penetration requirement.

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Guest cookoff013

i used the lyman guide for energy at distance with a 1300fps model, and looked at #6 at 40yards and read the energy. then went back to the table and #4 at 1050fps and read so that the numbers exceed the #6 1300fps mv. 
that for a near equivalency, there was a discrepency between sammi fps and british shotsizes and speeds at 2.5M, but it worked out as comparable.

 

i just read a table.

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On 16/02/2019 at 22:36, Walker570 said:

I use felt wads and have regulated my load, checking patterns each slight change until I arrived at the one I use now. My problem is that the word is that Vectan SP3 is going to be difficult to get after 29th March if the EU decide to be awkward. I will be stocking up as soon as I can find some so should be OK for another couple of seasons.

What you running sp3  in .410?

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Yes, works very well.  Started with the recipe listed in the Folkestone Engineering handout and very slightly adjusted till I reached what my gun enjoys.   19.7g of SP3 over powder card and 12mm felt wad(Folkestone)  18.7gram #7s which allows  nice tidy crimp.  Picked up a tub from Sporting Supplies today  so with what I already have, I have enough for summer pigeon shooting and next seasons game.

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51 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

Yes, works very well.  Started with the recipe listed in the Folkestone Engineering handout and very slightly adjusted till I reached what my gun enjoys.   19.7g of SP3 over powder card and 12mm felt wad(Folkestone)  18.7gram #7s which allows  nice tidy crimp.  Picked up a tub from Sporting Supplies today  so with what I already have, I have enough for summer pigeon shooting and next seasons game.

H110 works ok and try lil gun not used it in .410 yet but like it in 20 bore.

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Guest cookoff013

probably the tightest patterning cartridge are the slower ones. 

it is assumed, and i really mean, "i assume" slower / faster powder / low powder charges do produce tighter patterns. 

i did tinker with a 42g subsonic but never tested it on paper, just in a pressure barrel. it has always been a contraversial issue for me with shotsize selection, in some circles a #7.5 can knock down a pigeon,

i selected 4s and 2s for shooting rabbits once. the 36g cartridges performed beyond expectation. actually pulled some pretty stellar shots. 

there is a common sense approach, and the chance of wounded game and not retrieving the game when wounded. i tended to go heavyer after ground game (because they have stronger leg power to run away), but birds are different, and can go lighter in shotsize. 

i spoke to a guy once who hadnt a clue about cartridges, his mate was selling them to him. he had tons of problems, he applied for fac shotgun because he couldnt kill rabbit. i found out after questioning him, 24g clay loads.  when he probably would have done better with more substantial loads. after i gave him half a box of 4s, he had more success. 

 

the key question is tightest patterning cartridge vs cartridge size v shotsize

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