Want to Give yourself an Instant Wind Up?

[12gauge82]

32 minutes ago, henry d said:

Good choice of words. You say we need overwhelming evidence to lock someone up but also assert that it is not uncommon for someone to kill again and that is a miscarriage of justice and you use that to reinforce the life means life or capital punishment route. If someone is capable of being rehabilitated then you have removed their possibility of being a positive member of society at some stage because they might reoffend.

 

The difference is  unless you know who will and won't reoffend, which of course you don't you are in effect gambling with innocent peoples lives. 

34 minutes ago, henry d said:

 

Life for a life is also interesting, would people who advocate the same rule for those who kill someone using their car when under the influence, bad driving, speeding etc? Same as the young people who carry a knife, they don`t intend (generalisation) to go and kill someone, they take it to deter someone, its similar to getting into my car after a skinful (I don`t) and I unintentionally kill someone.

Again there's a difference, to be convicted of murder, it needs to be proved that you intended to kill someone, if you accidentally run someone over through bad or dangerous driving, no intent is needed. 

[Lord Geordie]

3 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

You've answered my question with further questions.

If the man that does the asking of the questions receives an answer that contains more questions, then the man that does the answering of said questions is surely questionable! Savvy?

[The Mighty Prawn]

It was just so depressingly pointless, a bit of handbags at dawn which escalated into a murder over less than 3 minutes

Too many bad boys worried about 'disrespect' and only too prepared to throw their lives away as a result

It was wonderful editing though of the copper saying in any joint enterprise someone always cracks, cue cutting between increasingly nervous looking scrotes, and sure enough one of them offered the whole thing up on plate - asking for some deal shows just how far removed they are from reality, too many american lawyer shows!

[henry d]

50 minutes ago, The Mighty Prawn said:

It was just so depressingly pointless, a bit of handbags at dawn which escalated into a murder over less than 3 minutes

Too many bad boys worried about 'disrespect' and only too prepared to throw their lives away as a result

It was wonderful editing though of the copper saying in any joint enterprise someone always cracks, cue cutting between increasingly nervous looking scrotes, and sure enough one of them offered the whole thing up on plate - asking for some deal shows just how far removed they are from reality, too many american lawyer shows!

Spot on

[Raja Clavata]

1 hour ago, Lord Geordie said:

If the man that does the asking of the questions receives an answer that contains more questions, then the man that does the answering of said questions is surely questionable! Savvy?

parse error in comment... </stop> 🙂

[Rewulf]

Weve done all this in the knife crime thread.
You can always guarantee one thing though, you could have the most vile crime, the most pointless murder, or the most prolific repeat offender, they could literally stand there in the dock (if they get captured) and say 'Im just bad to the bone, I will never stop committing crime' and someone will step forward to stick up for them , and say 'Its not really their fault, its the way they were bought up/they have 'issues' '   Excuses.
Everyone is responsible for their own actions, time to stop blaming 'society' or government for peoples ****ty behaviour and criminality.

The buck has to stop somewhere, and it stops with YOU.

[Scully]

4 hours ago, henry d said:

Good choice of words. You say we need overwhelming evidence to lock someone up but also assert that it is not uncommon for someone to kill again and that is a miscarriage of justice and you use that to reinforce the life means life or capital punishment route. If someone is capable of being rehabilitated then you have removed their possibility of being a positive member of society at some stage because they might reoffend.

Life for a life is also interesting, would people who advocate the same rule for those who kill someone using their car when under the influence, bad driving, speeding etc? Same as the young people who carry a knife, they don`t intend (generalisation) to go and kill someone, they take it to deter someone, its similar to getting into my car after a skinful (I don`t) and I unintentionally kill someone.

What is rehabilitation? I don't believe for a second that anyone can be rehabilitated; you can take that murderer out of that environment, but they're still a murderer. 

I know quite a few extremely violent folk who have 'changed' or 'mellowed' as some put it, due to them being removed from a certain environment, or their environment changing, such as when they become parents for example, but that person hasn't changed, only their circumstances; and as we all know, circumstances can change in a heart beat. 

If someone got into their car drunk or sober with the intention to kill someone, then yes, a life for a life would apply. There are plenty of young people who carry knives with just such an intention; it's their choice and as far as I'm concerned in such circumstances you have to be prepared to suffer the consequences.....the only snag at the moment is that there are no consequences worth mentioning, and certainly none which deter the carrying of knives. 

 

[henry d]

39 minutes ago, Scully said:

What is rehabilitation? I don't believe for a second that anyone can be rehabilitated; you can take that murderer out of that environment, but they're still a murderer. 

In that case even a shoplifter cannot be rehabilitated, I`m sorry that just doesn`t make sense. Rehab, particularly in this case, is restoration to a normal functioning person in societ. If you look up the VRU/CIRV in Glasgow you will see plenty of ex offenders who now assist rehabilitating violent gang members and they have a 50% success rate with those willing to attend and a 25% of those refusing. Most substance abuse rehab centres believe they are a success if they reach 15-20% with their clients. In each case the person can be labelled as a junkie/alkie or murderer/violent offender, but if they are not offending/using then they are rehabilitated.

Here`s the story of the VRU in Glasgow I recommend watching the video with Callum in it and listening to what he says.

I`m also quite  very happy to say that I actually know one that was rehabilitated (attempted murder with a samurai sword) and he is still not offending and his mentor was the prison chaplain his short story is here, or get his book for the full tale.

 

55 minutes ago, Scully said:

There are plenty of young people who carry knives with just such an intention;......

The majority take them out hoping never to use them, a quick flash of the blade to say; "I also have a blade" as per Callum above and Azzan the young guy who died.

[Scully]

If you take a shoplifter out of their environment and out of the circumstances which led to them shoplifting, then you can call it rehabilitation, if you like, but what happens If that persons circumstances change and they find themselves once again in that environment? How do we change each and everyones circumstances? Are the people you mention in fact rehabilitated or simply not offending at the moment? 

11 minutes ago, henry d said:

In that case even a shoplifter cannot be rehabilitated, I`m sorry that just doesn`t make sense. Rehab, particularly in this case, is restoration to a normal functioning person in societ. If you look up the VRU/CIRV in Glasgow you will see plenty of ex offenders who now assist rehabilitating violent gang members and they have a 50% success rate with those willing to attend and a 25% of those refusing. Most substance abuse rehab centres believe they are a success if they reach 15-20% with their clients. In each case the person can be labelled as a junkie/alkie or murderer/violent offender, but if they are not offending/using then they are rehabilitated.

Here`s the story of the VRU in Glasgow I recommend watching the video with Callum in it and listening to what he says.

I`m also quite  very happy to say that I actually know one that was rehabilitated (attempted murder with a samurai sword) and he is still not offending and his mentor was the prison chaplain his short story is here, or get his book for the full tale.

 

The majority take them out hoping never to use them, a quick flash of the blade to say; "I also have a blade" as per Callum above and Azzan the young guy who died.

Ok, so what do we do with the 'minority' who actually kill someone? What do you suggest, for example, we do with the lad who stabbed to death Jodie Chesney, as some sort of 'initiation ceremony' as some have claimed? 

[henry d]

15 hours ago, Scully said:

If you take a shoplifter out of their environment and out of the circumstances which led to them shoplifting, then you can call it rehabilitation, if you like, but what happens If that persons circumstances change and they find themselves once again in that environment?

A good point, however you are not just taking them away from the circumstances. Sometimes people do not know what the external factors acting upon their lives actually are, they need to be also conscious of them to do something about it, the only person who can bring about change in a person is that person themselves. By allowing them a space to critically reflect and do something positive is called praxis and if a person learns how to do this day to day they can better weather the storms that life sends their way. So in your example above a shoplifter can see they are struggling or perhaps just want something and the process of critically reflecting on what is happening helps them to understand the bigger picture of their situation. They may think about their lack of cash at the time but realise they could get a loan from a family member or that they could wait until they are paid/receive benefit next, they may understand better that the TV ads for the thing they want are just teasers getting them to buy something they don`t really need, they may actually need something (nappies, tampons or food for example) but know that they can go to the foodbank or that a shop/café/church/community centre provides tampons/nappies for free. Before, when they were shoplifting, they had what is called naïve consciousness; where they knew they were poor or that they wanted something, but did not understand the reasons they were poor in the first place or why marketing can have such an effect on peoples habits.

15 hours ago, Scully said:

How do we change each and everyones circumstances?

Generally speaking we can`t, but we can educate those at most risk, or those who have offended. In my field young people get flagged up when there are noticeable changes in their behaviour or they have come to the attention of certain statutory sector agencies, police, housing, education etc but not statutory sector youth work as they are so underfunded they can only do targeted youth work; those who have actually fallen through the gaps and are abused/left home/offending/abusing substances.

15 hours ago, Scully said:

Are the people you mention in fact rehabilitated or simply not offending at the moment? 

Rehabilitated in the main would be my answer but with a different worldview others would say "not offending at the moment". It also asks the question “So why don`t we just lock them all up as they could/will continue to reoffend anyway!” and if that is the majorities viewpoint then they have to pay for the cost of multiple new prisons, staff, and all the running costs.

15 hours ago, Scully said:

Ok, so what do we do with the 'minority' who actually kill someone?

They have to pay for what they did, and obviously the sentence depends on the circumstances of the case.

15 hours ago, Scully said:

What do you suggest, for example, we do with the lad who stabbed to death Jodie Chesney, as some sort of 'initiation ceremony' as some have claimed?

Not going there, no evidence of it just rumour so it is a dead horse and I am not flogging it.

[Rewulf]

16 hours ago, henry d said:

I`m also quite  very happy to say that I actually know one that was rehabilitated (attempted murder with a samurai sword) and he is still not offending and his mentor was the prison chaplain his short story is here, or get his book for the full tale.

'A PRISONER dubbed one of the most violent in Scotland claims being put behind bars saved his life.

Anthony Gielty was just 17 when he was sentenced to 10 years.

The teen was convicted of attempted murder in 2003 after he attacked a man with a Samurai sword in Middleton.

But his reign of terror didn’t end there.

Gielty bullied his way through prison after prison, intimidating the other cons and the wardens, too.

But just as the Scottish penal system was about to issue its punishment of last resort, continuous solitary confinement, he saw the light.'

I cant imagine what 'light' he saw, maybe the 'threat' of climbing the walls and talking himself into insanity played a part ?
So what rehabilitated him, a smooth guiding hand pointing him in the right direction, or the  prospect of a punishment he didnt relish ?

10 minutes ago, henry d said:

Rehabilitated in the main would be my answer but with a different worldview others would say "not offending at the moment". It also asks the question “So why don`t we just lock them all up as they could/will continue to reoffend anyway!” and if that is the majorities viewpoint then they have to pay for the cost of multiple new prisons, staff, and all the running costs.

As opposed to the staff and facilities to 'rehabilitate ' that might work, but in the main , as you know , dont.

 

16 hours ago, henry d said:

The majority take them out hoping never to use them, a quick flash of the blade to say; "I also have a blade" as per Callum above and Azzan the young guy who died.

You know this ? How ?
If its just the 'majority' What about the minority who can and will use them ? Like last night..https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1105797/london-stabbing-knife-crime-latest-news-tooting-high-street-metropolitan-police

Your methods take years to work, do we have years?
How many need to die before we get tough ?
Or you could look at it another way, if they all kill each other, eventually it will all go away ? I dont think so.

[Scully]

19 minutes ago, henry d said:

 

Not going there, no evidence of it just rumour so it is a dead horse and I am not flogging it.

 

Thanks for taking the time, the above however, is a complete and utter cop out!

Whatever his motive, It isn’t a rumour she was stabbed to death. 

What do you propose we do with him Henry? 

[Rewulf]

18 minutes ago, Scully said:

What do you propose we do with him Henry? 

Round the world cruise, nice long African safari ?

Ill go for life in prison with a recommendation he serve at least 45 years, give him some time to think about it, and serve as a deterrent to others 

[henry d]

42 minutes ago, Scully said:

Thanks for taking the time, the above however, is a complete and utter cop out!

Whatever his motive, It isn’t a rumour she was stabbed to death. 

What do you propose we do with him Henry? 

No not a cop out, if it comes to light then we can discuss it.

 

1 hour ago, henry d said:

They have to pay for what they did, and obviously the sentence depends on the circumstances of the case.

Same as this

[Scully]

1 minute ago, henry d said:

No not a cop out, if it comes to light then we can discuss it.

 

 

Yes it is and you know it.  Whatever the motive he deliberately stabbed her to death. 

[Scully]

27 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Round the world cruise, nice long African safari ?

Ill go for life in prison with a recommendation he serve at least 45 years, give him some time to think about it, and serve as a deterrent to others 

I know what I’d do. No prolonged or costly incarceration at the tax payers expense. No risk of some idiots a few years down the line claiming he’s paid his dues, is repentant and rehabilitated, then  releasing him back into society.

Sorted. 👍

[henry d]

12 minutes ago, Scully said:

Yes it is and you know it.  Whatever the motive he deliberately stabbed her to death. 

No it isn`t and the above asks a totally different question. Yes it would appear that he stabbed her deliberately, he didn`t trip over while clening his mums best kitchen knife or whatever, but as yet we don`t know why, so it is futile speculating whether it was a gang initiation.

[Scully]

1 minute ago, henry d said:

No it isn`t and the above asks a totally different question. Yes it would appear that he stabbed her deliberately, he didn`t trip over while clening his mums best kitchen knife or whatever, but as yet we don`t know why, so it is futile speculating whether it was a gang initiation.

I’m afraid it is Henry, and like I said, you know it is. 

I’m not bothered about the motive, and only mentioned it to highlight that particular case. Conjecture or not; I don’t care WHY he did it; the fact remains he deliberately stabbed the poor girl to death.

I doubt that fits comfortably into any liberal thinking scenario. 

 

[henry d]

9 minutes ago, Scully said:

I’m afraid it is Henry, and like I said, you know it is. 

I’m not bothered about the motive, and only mentioned it to highlight that particular case. Conjecture or not; I don’t care WHY he did it; the fact remains he deliberately stabbed the poor girl to death.

I doubt that fits comfortably into any liberal thinking scenario. 

 

Its not a cop out, no one in their right mind or without a reason goes out one day and stabs someone, there is always a reason for something like this happening, sticking your head in the sand and saying you are not bothered or care about reasons why these things happen is totally crass. It was wrong of Sally Challen to kill her husband even after 40 years of abuse, so would you see her hang?

[strimmer_13]

Sally challens in theory has already served her sentence, 40 years of hard abuse. 

[Scully]

1 hour ago, henry d said:

Its not a cop out, no one in their right mind or without a reason goes out one day and stabs someone, there is always a reason for something like this happening, sticking your head in the sand and saying you are not bothered or care about reasons why these things happen is totally crass. It was wrong of Sally Challen to kill her husband even after 40 years of abuse, so would you see her hang?

Well there we go; name calling or answering a question with another is just another cop out in my opinion. I can’t think of any possible extenuating circumstances to explain ( or excuse ) why some lad would stab to death a young woman, although I’m sure given time, you could. 

Crass I can live with, gullibilty not so easy. 

I’ll answer your question Henry when you've answered mine, but we can revisit this one when all the facts are known. 

[treetree]

For those opposed to capital punishment, what reason would you give for it not being used on the likes of Peter Sutcliffe, Fred West, Harold Shipman, Ian Brady, Myra Hindley. 

Given the heinous nature of the crime and the absolute certainty of guilt, what reason for not using capital punishment? 

[Rewulf]

2 hours ago, henry d said:

Its not a cop out, no one in their right mind or without a reason goes out one day and stabs someone, there is always a reason for something like this happening, 

The son of a successful businessman, Anthony had been sheltered from the harsh side of life.

It was normal for him to be playing football on a housing estate one day and shooting grouse on one of the finest moors in Scotland the next.

We can rule out poverty then ?

ANTHONY stood helpless, watching the kicks pound his brother’s head.

Until that point, violence wasn’t something he knew.

But frozen with fear, watching four lanky teenagers set about his 10-year-old twin, his eyes were opened to the world of brutality.

 “That day affected me deeply. The attack, and the cowardice that prevented me from jumping in for him, pierced me to the core.

“After that I started taking a weapon to school. I also made a conscious effort never to back down again. I would never allow myself to be bullied again, no matter what!”

The happy-go-lucky youngster faded into the distance as he turned delinquent, hanging around the streets, drinking and fighting.

His membership with a local boxing club became a brutish badge of honour.

“Many times I’d knock a person out and just leave them unconscious, snoring on the pavement with their eyes still wide open,” Anthony, now 30, remembered.

“The knots in my stomach that had accompanied the prospect of a fight in the early days had disappeared.

“Along with the ‘buzz’ now came a crazed confidence and manic excitement.

“Two primary schools and three high schools later – I was on my way to jail!”

Anthony’s fascination with violence grew and it wasn’t uncommon for him to be in several scuffles of a weekend. During one brawl, he bit off a man’s ear. Unfazed, he spat it out and simply walked away.

Anthony led a double life. By day, he was an apprentice plumber. But come night, he was raiding shops, stealing cars, committing credit card fraud and dealing drugs.

“Every time my mum heard the whirr of the washing machine, she wondered whose blood was being washed from my clothes,” he said.

“At my worst, I was thoroughly evil. It’s disturbing now when I think how normal this was to me.”

So, young Tony decided that to fight the 'bullies' he was going to be king bully..

The attempted murder he was eventually sent down for 10 years for.
By any stretch, a lenient sentence.

A FORMER Scottish boxing champion has been jailed for 15 years after a savage and unprovoked attack on a man with a samurai sword.

Edinburgh fighter George Baigrie, who had been marked out for a glowing boxing career with a list of both Scottish and East of Scotland boxing titles under his belt, was convicted of the attempted murder of a man on his way home from a family celebration on Father’s Day on June 16, this year.

Baigrie, 20, from Edinburgh, and Anthony Gielty, 17, of Whitehill Road, Rosewell, Midlothian, were yesterday jailed at the High Court in Kilmarnock for a total of 25 years.

Lord Hardie jailed Baigrie, who had a previous conviction for assault to severe injury, causing permanent disfigurement and permanent impairment, for 12 years with an extended sentence of three years.

Gielty was sent to a young offenders’ institution for ten years for his part in the attack.

Solicitor advocate John Keenan, for Baigrie, said: "He was a keen amateur boxer and at one stage was due to represent Scotland at the Commonwealth Games.

"He won a string of Scottish and East of Scotland titles. It is regrettable that someone with such a promising sporting career has gone so far off the rails.

He said Baigrie was previously sentenced to 18 months in a young offenders’ institution in June 2000 for a serious assault, which brought his boxing career to an end.

Mr Keenan added: "He is a relatively young man, and when at liberty, stays with his partner and two young children."

James Keegan, solicitor advocate, for Gielty, said: "He is also a boxer and a member of the Gilmerton Boxing Association. They have submitted a testimonial on his behalf for the court to consider.

"He accepts his part in the attack on the Essens and expresses shame and remorse for his actions and will never be able to forget what he has done."

The pair carried out the attack on Don Essen, from Dalkeith on June 16, this year, at Bogwood Road, Mayfield, Dalkeith.

They repeatedly bludgeoned him on the head and body with samurai swords, causing him severe injury, permanent disfigurement, permanent impairment, to the danger of his life and attempted to murder him.

The pair were also convicted of attacking Graeme Essen by striking and attempting to strike him on the head and body with the Japanese-style swords.

The court heard that Don Essen suffered horrific injuries, including a 67-inch laceration to his chest, exposing the inside of his chest and muscle.

He also suffered a two-and-a- half inch cut behind his left ear and had three fingers partially severed.

Sentencing Baigrie, Lord Hardie said: "You have both been convicted of a very serious offence involving the use of samurai-type swords in what can only be described as an unprovoked attack on an intoxicated man on his way home from a family celebration on Father’s Day.

"As a result of the attack Don Essen had three of his fingers partially severed and was unable to return to his job as a forklift driver and has had to be employed in another capacity."

Baigrie’s sentence was backdated to June 17, the date he was first taken into custody.

Young Tony was so ashamed and remorseful of chopping up and nearly killing 2 men , changing their lives permanently , that when he got to prison, he set about changing his ways by dealing drugs, and beating or stabbing any inmate or prison officer who crossed him !

When faced with Scotlands infamous ghost train punishment, he did a quick about turn, found God and was let out after 5 years to write a book, become a motivational speaker and have a family.
And everyone lived happily ever after...

...Except all his victims, who with the physical and mental scars, live a life sentence, but hey, he got rehabilitated didnt he ?

 

[henry d]

1 hour ago, strimmer_13 said:

Sally challens in theory has already served her sentence, 40 years of hard abuse. 

Don`t come in here with your liberal wooly thinking! (Tongue firmly through one cheek, round the back of the head and firmly in the other cheek)

1 hour ago, Scully said:

I’ll answer your question Henry when you've answered mine, but we can revisit this one when all the facts are known. 

Yeah sure thing.

[Scully]

1 hour ago, henry d said:

Don`t come in here with your liberal wooly thinking! (Tongue firmly through one cheek, round the back of the head and firmly in the other cheek)

 

Indeed; we don’t want any of that;  it’s that sort of liberal woolly thinking that gets convicted murderers released, so yet another family can experience the grieving process.  ( Tongue not so firmly planted in my cheek ) 👍