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eddoakley

Crashed a borrowed car

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Let's not confuse liability for the payment with the legal aspect of permitting to drive without  insurance which edd understands. I'd have to see the policy to be clear but I find it strange they are chasing the owner of the van and not the person who crashed. If it was commercial and part of a fleet it may be different. The policy should make it clear that if u lend it out and they crash then they will recover the costs from you if the driver is uninsured. As he was uninsured and they didn't pay to repair your van  but did pay to fix the Merc I find it even stranger. As its the person that insured whilst driving and not the vehicle (on most policies). 

Either way it pays to check the small print before lending the car out. 

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43 minutes ago, andrewluke said:

like you said," To my mind he is at fault and as he was driving without insurance",that means that you let him drive your van without insurance and that is something which you can get prosecuted for,

 

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-2211934/How-face-5-000-fine-lending-car.html

So surely this would be a criminal prosecution for allowing someone to drive rather than me being liable for a repair bill?

Also as we both reasonably believed that he was insured I'm sure that makes a difference.

 

Edd

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1 minute ago, eddoakley said:

 

Also as we both reasonably believed that he was insured I'm sure that makes a difference.

 

Edd

i'm sure quite alot of uninsured drivers try that one,

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5 minutes ago, andrewluke said:

i'm sure quite alot of uninsured drivers try that one,

Quite possibly. 

I went to court many years ago for driving without insurance.

The owner of a minibus had asked me to drive a bunch of our friends. He told me I was definitely covered to drive. Why should I doubt him? He confirmed in court that's what happened and I received no points of fine due to "special reasons". Mistake s can and do happen.

But like I said surely that  doesn't mean my insurance company pay out and demand the money from me?

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So you lend your (mate) your van he’s lied to you about his insurance as it’s not valid and now your (mate) wants you to pick up the £10k bill for the merc he hit 

tell the insurance to get it of your (X mate )

also go to court over the  lent to (mate) who lied and drove without insurance because of your failure to do due diligence on the paperwork 

there not going to fine you £10k 

 

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Not the same thing I know but I have a Traders’s policy and any car that I enter on it in my responsibilitie till I take it off. So say for instance  I sell you a car then you crash in on the way home and you haven’t had time to take  out insurance on it yet I would still be liable for it  and the damage as it’s still listed on my policy. Crazy I know but that’s how it works 

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A little update for anyone that was interested:

Ombudsman has now told me that (without having all of the details) I am more than likely liable and stuck with the bill.

"The an extent they insure the vehicle and not the driver" was how they explained. 

However they also advised me to tell my insurance company to chase payment from me mate's insurance company and they in turn would chase him. Probably ending with him being handed the bill that I currently have.

On the advice of the ombudsman complaints have been raised and hopefully while the matter is investigated further the demand for payment will be put on hold and sorted throughbthe other company.

Insurance is a minefield and I'm glad that I've stopped insuring anything personally and have everything on the company fleet policy.

Be very careful to read the small print on your policies!!

 

Edd

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A difficult topic to share and very much appreciated, as hopefully it'll help avoid problems for anyone else.

Whys is it always the 'good guys' who get the carp, and the uninsured, idle, seem to get away every time.

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29 minutes ago, eddoakley said:

A little update for anyone that was interested:

Ombudsman has now told me that (without having all of the details) I am more than likely liable and stuck with the bill.

"The an extent they insure the vehicle and not the driver" was how they explained. 

However they also advised me to tell my insurance company to chase payment from me mate's insurance company and they in turn would chase him. Probably ending with him being handed the bill that I currently have.

On the advice of the ombudsman complaints have been raised and hopefully while the matter is investigated further the demand for payment will be put on hold and sorted throughbthe other company.

Insurance is a minefield and I'm glad that I've stopped insuring anything personally and have everything on the company fleet policy.

Be very careful to read the small print on your policies!!

 

Edd

i thought your mates insurance did not cover him to drive commercial so why should they pay??

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19 minutes ago, andrewluke said:

i thought your mates insurance did not cover him to drive commercial so why should they pay??

Probably along the same lines as why my insurance paid out even though the driver was nothing to do with my policy.

Why have mine paid out when it the driver was not covered by them?

Why do I have this bill and not the driver?

Have you had issues with insurance? Maybe been hit by an uninsured driver or had to cover the cost of an accident? It seems as though you are very keen to see this as my fault and at every opportunity you seem to say that I should be liable, where most people that has responded seem to have some sympathy for the fact that this is a genuine case of not reading small print and me being stuck with a £10k bill when I had simply done someone a favour in lending them a vehicle which both he and I believed we were doing perfectly legitimately.

Edd

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7 minutes ago, eddoakley said:

Probably along the same lines as why my insurance paid out even though the driver was nothing to do with my policy.

Why have mine paid out when it the driver was not covered by them?

Why do I have this bill and not the driver?

Have you had issues with insurance? Maybe been hit by an uninsured driver or had to cover the cost of an accident? It seems as though you are very keen to see this as my fault and at every opportunity you seem to say that I should be liable, where most people that has responded seem to have some sympathy for the fact that this is a genuine case of not reading small print and me being stuck with a £10k bill when I had simply done someone a favour in lending them a vehicle which both he and I believed we were doing perfectly legitimately.

Edd

you let an uninsured driver drive your van!,sympathy won't help with anything

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18 minutes ago, eddoakley said:

Probably along the same lines as why my insurance paid out even though the driver was nothing to do with my policy.

Why have mine paid out when it the driver was not covered by them?

Why do I have this bill and not the driver?

Have you had issues with insurance? Maybe been hit by an uninsured driver or had to cover the cost of an accident? It seems as though you are very keen to see this as my fault and at every opportunity you seem to say that I should be liable, where most people that has responded seem to have some sympathy for the fact that this is a genuine case of not reading small print and me being stuck with a £10k bill when I had simply done someone a favour in lending them a vehicle which both he and I believed we were doing perfectly legitimately.

Edd

Thanks for sharing this Edd. The whole insurance thing is a nightmare of complexity, particularly when you start talking about commercial vehicles. I am driving a Navara and tend to think it's just like a car in most respects, until I start reading this. Do I even have third party cover for driving another vehicle (that I thought i had)? I would have happily lent it to anyone with car insurance. The answer now is I really don't know what cover I have and will have to read that policy after all. 

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On 07/04/2019 at 13:50, andrewluke said:

the owner of the van lent his van to his mate,owner of van should have checked all insurance details to make sure his mate was covered to drive:hmm:,van owners responsibility

This.

 

On 07/04/2019 at 14:23, andrewluke said:

like you said," To my mind he is at fault and as he was driving without insurance",that means that you let him drive your van without insurance and that is something which you can get prosecuted for,

 

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-2211934/How-face-5-000-fine-lending-car.html

And this unfortunately.

 

On 07/04/2019 at 13:57, eddoakley said:

I asked and was told he was insured.

Do I need to check the policy? The wording of the policy for any exclusions? His license? Breathalize him?

Due diligence is the keyword here, Im sure you believe you did 'enough' and Ive done exactly the same on someones word.
The fact is, when the insurance company received the bill and tried to claim it off 'friends' policy, they got refused, did they show due diligence in checking before repairs started ?
Could you have even have claimed on your own policy if 'friend' was found to be uninsured ? Probably not.

Its a messy situation, is your friend being prosecuted for driving without ?
If he is, then you too could be prosecuted also, Im sorry to say.

The only advice I can give , is to make sure all insurers have followed proper procedure, give all correspondence to someone legally qualified to check, and if theyve messed up somewhere, use that as a get out.
Otherwise you will be unable to avoid paying.

The other alternative is to come up with a payment plan with your insurance company, small enough for friend to contribute to.

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2 hours ago, andrewluke said:

you let an uninsured driver drive your van!,sympathy won't help with anything

Seems like you just want to argue.

The facts are indeed that I (unwittingly) allowed an uninsured driver to drive my vehicle.

However the circumstances are not straight forward.

We both had insurance. We both believed that there was sufficient cover for him to drive the vehicle. We were wrong and it's come back to bite us (more so me!) 

Most people that have commented or that I have spoken to find it difficult to understand why my insurance would pay out. I'm suggesting that as the "at fault driver" my friend should be responsible/liable. He actually feels the same but can't get the insurance companies to see it that way.

If I end up having to foot the bill then I will deal with it, as I've said all along but if the bill can be passed to the person who is responsible for the crash then I (and most other people) would see that as a more reasonable outcome.

 

Edd

 

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58 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Due diligence is the keyword here, Im sure you believe you did 'enough' and Ive done exactly the same on someones word.

Its a messy situation, is your friend being prosecuted for driving without ?

The other alternative is to come up with a payment plan with your insurance company, small enough for friend to contribute to.

Certainly is messy and complicated.

He isn't being prosecuted.

If he was and I had to defend myself for lending him the vehicle I would just be honest and hope that my reasons for allowing him to drive would be seen as having taken reasonable steps to ensure that he ways legally allowed to drive the vehicle. I think I did.

If all procedures are correct then I will pay, I'm not looking to "get out of paying" if I am liable and I will deal with whatever comes of it all but I'm struggling to understand how I am faced with this bill when I wasn't the driver that crashed, the driver that did has accepted blame and he had his own insurance.

If his didn't cover him and wouldn't pay out why has mine paid? 

Why has his insurer not paid out and perused him for cost?

Edd

 

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1 minute ago, eddoakley said:

If his didn't cover him and wouldn't pay out why has mine paid? 

Why has his insurer not paid out and perused him for cost?

Exactly, this is the bit that needs examining, and will require the services of someone who understands the complexities of insurance law, which could be expensive.

I would make enquiries.

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5 minutes ago, eddoakley said:

Certainly is messy and complicated.

He isn't being prosecuted.

If he was and I had to defend myself for lending him the vehicle I would just be honest and hope that my reasons for allowing him to drive would be seen as having taken reasonable steps to ensure that he ways legally allowed to drive the vehicle. I think I did.

If all procedures are correct then I will pay, I'm not looking to "get out of paying" if I am liable and I will deal with whatever comes of it all but I'm struggling to understand how I am faced with this bill when I wasn't the driver that crashed, the driver that did has accepted blame and he had his own insurance.

If his didn't cover him and wouldn't pay out why has mine paid? 

Why has his insurer not paid out and perused him for cost?

Edd

Simply because in effect he was NOT insured to drive that class of vehicle on his policy! 

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7 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Simply because in effect he was NOT insured to drive that class of vehicle on his policy! 

But MY insurance has paid out and he wasn't coveted on that either. That's the bit I'm struggling with.

Edd

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2 minutes ago, eddoakley said:

But MY insurance has paid out and he wasn't coveted on that either. That's the bit I'm struggling with.

Edd

Theres probably something buried in your policy that covers third parties in any eventuality..

I.E. The buck stops with you, its just whether theyve followed proper procedure.
Ive heard of similar things happening, not like this admittedly, it usually just follows the line of thinking theyre covered on their full comp policy, when theyre not.
But the liability usually ends up back with the owner, in some respect.

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If you/your mate pays the bill, will you end up loosing your no claims bonus too 🤔?

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1 hour ago, eddoakley said:

Seems like you just want to argue.

The facts are indeed that I (unwittingly) allowed an uninsured driver to drive my vehicle.

However the circumstances are not straight forward.

We both had insurance. We both believed that there was sufficient cover for him to drive the vehicle. We were wrong and it's come back to bite us (more so me!) 

Most people that have commented or that I have spoken to find it difficult to understand why my insurance would pay out. I'm suggesting that as the "at fault driver" my friend should be responsible/liable. He actually feels the same but can't get the insurance companies to see it that way.

If I end up having to foot the bill then I will deal with it, as I've said all along but if the bill can be passed to the person who is responsible for the crash then I (and most other people) would see that as a more reasonable outcome.

 

Edd

 

i'm not arguing,i'm stating facts which you don't want to hear!

1 hour ago, eddoakley said:

But MY insurance has paid out and he wasn't coveted on that either. That's the bit I'm struggling with.

Edd

but your insurance company is claiming what they paid out from you

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1 hour ago, andrewluke said:

i'm not arguing,i'm stating facts which you don't want to hear!

but your insurance company is claiming what they paid out from you

I'm well aware of the facts and from the outset I have said that I will deal with whatever the outcome is.

I have also said that it seems that I will be held liable but I'm sure as hell going to look at every possible bit of advice (especially from the ombudsman ) which may help me get this bill to the person that had the accident.

And as far as my insurance company claiming money from me that is exactly the point that I am arguing!

I didn't crash and the driver that did was not covered by my insurance! Why did they pay out and why am I being handed the bill?!?!

I don't insure my next door neighbour to drive and when he crashed I didn't expect the bill, that's between him and his insurance company.

Edd

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7 minutes ago, eddoakley said:

I'm well aware of the facts and from the outset I have said that I will deal with whatever the outcome is.

I have also said that it seems that I will be held liable but I'm sure as hell going to look at every possible bit of advice (especially from the ombudsman ) which may help me get this bill to the person that had the accident.

And as far as my insurance company claiming money from me that is exactly the point that I am arguing!

I didn't crash and the driver that did was not covered by my insurance! Why did they pay out and why am I being handed the bill?!?!

I don't insure my next door neighbour to drive and when he crashed I didn't expect the bill, that's between him and his insurance company.

Edd

was your neighbour driving your car when he had the accident?

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