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Wasabi
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5 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Well posted!

If I may, I'll chuck in my tuppence worth.

If you look at the main thread on this overall topic, it soon becomes apparent that not everyone realises what the GLs are. What they're not is an open ended 'licence to kill' willy nilly. Consequently, it would be a great help if our associations got together with NE and produced some guidlines. One element of this is as reflected in the topic referred to in as much as the legality of roost shooting and shooting over stubble to name just two activities in question. To be of any value in reducing damage, it is no good what-so-ever in placing too many restrictions on what is legally acceptable. As in the case of the previously mentioned guidlines, clarification here would also be advantageous.

Any stalker who qualified as an 'Authorised Person' under the terms of the 1963 Deer Act will understand what I'm on about in as much as it wasn't necessary to catch your deer 'red handed' in order to prevent damage being done by shooting it on the spot while it was so doing. It didn't even have to be the same animal, but one of the same species. However, there were restrictions, one of which was that the deer could only be culled on the land where to damage was being done and not on the land where it had come from. Consequently, it would be advantageous if the GLs could adopt a similar policy which would then remove any ambiguity about the legality of the activities mentioned above. It would also enhance the effectiveness of the legislation to the level of that we've just lost provided it was carried out in a location which had previously incurred damage. This would then cover the  protection of new drillings.

 

 

Wmyberely u should mibbee clarify ur post about deer and explain that's for out of season shooting often called the farmers defence andnotfor normal stalking.

 

I was always under the impression stubble, roost or even shooting on a shoot day was deemed to be protecting future crops so could be carried out under GL.

Possibly/ probably clarity would be a good thing but u just hope it goes ur way.

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I just speed read this read and one thing stands out more than anything, and that is this: I read much the same argument and counter argument regarding some of the  representative bodies 10, 20, 30+ years ago.

I have supported various shooting organisations over the years and am proud to say was an early supporter of the NGO. Each organisation has it's merits and some have their weaknesses. The general shooting community is as divided today as it always has been with some supporting this group, some that and others go their own way.

Time to get your act together lads and lasses before you loose what you hold dear. United we stand etc...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Miserableolgit
Technical issue!!
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Good point.....crop protection should, I believe include the protection of future crops wherever and whenever from avians known to raid crops, likewise avians that are known to attack lambs, predate protected species etc etc.

It seems to me Packham, Avery, Tingay et al have identified that direct attacks on shooting just do not work.......their tactic now appears to be lobbying to force regulation on all shooting sports! They want all shoots licensing, Grouse shoots licensing, pest control (under GL) licensing, Wildfowling licensing (via NE consents) once they have licensing they have rules, regulations and control of the resultant enforcement,  once they have rules and regulations they can control the law to ensure it is applied to the letter (as per the GL) and work can then commence for more regulatory control, increasing the stranglehold until the life is squeezed out of shooting!

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, 243deer said:

Like many folk who use social media I have spent more time reading than working the last couple of days and I believe Wasabi's post does highlight weaknesses that need urgently addressing.

I have seen a great deal of organisation bashing without the balance of ideas on how to change things for the better so here are just a few ideas that I have based on my current experience of working for a very long established company whose directors still ask "what is the benefit of social media?"

1. The protection of shooting should be treated as a war. It is no good simply being reactive. Each of our organisations need to employ strategists who can see where the next attack is coming from and prepare a suitable defence to all scenarios well in advance. I would have hoped that the chairperson of each of our organisations would be such a person but it appears not. The lack of this activity since January has shown a weakness in our organisations that needs addressing and I do not mean the sacking of anyone but rather acknowledging the weakness and acting upon it rapidly. Should they achieve this new way of thinking then this event could end up being the greatest own goal ever scored by the antis.

2. There is a clear lack of media personalities publicly supporting what we do. The funds are available to ensure that such folk in the public eye have their expenses covered to enable them to be available as a balancing voice in interviews. If no such voice is requested by the media company then our organisations need to have someone on the ball at all times raising official complaints both to the organisation concerned, their governing body and to MP's.

3. Communication - our organisations need to employ a public relations company to teach them how to communicate all the the good work that they are doing to their members and to the public. The old excuse often quoted to me when I have complained in writing is "a lot of work goes on behind the scenes". Well that is the way it used to be done. Our opponents do not do things this way at all anymore they do things very publicly - it is time we did the same. Our organisations publish magazines for their members, I think almost everyone would agree that the list of the activities per area seem disproportionately small - tell us everything that you are doing.

4. Our organisations really do need to start working together, sharing costs and resources. The challenge to all the current chairs is to achieve at least a broad outline of this in the next 3 months.

I would be interested to see other positive ideas and turn this thread into one that the PW massive could be proud to show to the chair of each organisation.

 

Brilliant post!

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7 hours ago, panoma1 said:

Good point.....crop protection should, I believe include the protection of future crops wherever and whenever from avians known to raid crops, likewise avians that are known to attack lambs, predate protected species etc etc.

It seems to me Packham, Avery, Tingay et al have identified that direct attacks on shooting just do not work.......their tactic now appears to be lobbying to force regulation on all shooting sports! They want all shoots licensing, Grouse shoots licensing, pest control (under GL) licensing, Wildfowling licensing (via NE consents) once they have licensing they have rules, regulations and control of the resultant enforcement,  once they have rules and regulations they can control the law to ensure it is applied to the letter (as per the GL) and work can then commence for more regulatory control, increasing the stranglehold until the life is squeezed out of shooting!

  

 

 

I have to take issue with you on your post's deficiency.....IMHY it should have included one other arch-opponent of field sorts---- yup.....One ...Tony Juniper....self proclaimed ..."Eco Warrior"/self publicist, etc....   obviously not a lone voice or activist albeit one without reservation of self promotion. However for those with time or inclination ...😩...click on his resume specifics.

The impetus of your post is quite explicit, but in plain language, these "warriors" are identifiable as a joined up organisation/cabal.... with a singular aim.  I leave it to you the reader to join up the dots between the organisations/" charities"/welfare bodies....the list goes on....bbc, blah, blah ... 

 Part of their strategy seems to be - ---- -  Attack the different sections of the shooting fraternity on their individual front...eg pigeon shooting, corvid control, grouse moorland management et al.... After this multi-prong attack produces the biggest Single identifiable and measurable backlash, these warriors have identified that particular section as the one which may sway bureaucratic/ political regulation control. As part of their divide and rule strategy the WJ cabal will cede "permitted allowances" in...say, corvid and pigeon control....on the basis that .tit-for-tat...say for example....grouse shooting must be regulated and licensed.

As a fieldsport enthusiast you should NOT  think/accept that All is hunky dory on  our side of the fence....Far from it....as regards perception by both the general public ...and  also from a sizeable section within the field sport community. Far be it for me to  have to point a finger at the section of the shooting community which most likely brings down Public umbrage on fieldsports in general.

And so it will proceed,,,.....wildfowling next.....and.... who's next?  It is your guess ... and so ...death by a thousand cuts.....

If you have taken the time to read this - I apologise for the lengthy monologue but it really is long past the time that Fieldsport representative bodies woke up to the fact that they are being outsmarted and outflanked on most, if not all fronts. They must realise that an apologist (BASC) agenda is not acceptable to the respective memberships - and that although they have failed miserably in several battles, the War must go on...but on a much better devised plan and footing. So...if the current generals can't produce, perhaps they should either step aside, or be pushed before it is too late.

I think that  "WE" ..  ie -The Countryside -by which I mean songbirds, shorebirds, moorland birds- livestock  and dare I say it Crops - deserve it. The intensive game farm industry may deserve what it gets but it should not be allowed to drag down those of us who are more in tune with the Great British Countryside.

Amen.

 

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18 minutes ago, harkom said:

I have to take issue with you on your post's deficiency.....IMHY it should have included one other arch-opponent of field sorts---- yup.....One ...Tony Juniper....self proclaimed ..."Eco Warrior"/self publicist, etc....   obviously not a lone voice or activist albeit one without reservation of self promotion. However for those with time or inclination ...😩...click on his resume specifics.

The impetus of your post is quite explicit, but in plain language, these "warriors" are identifiable as a joined up organisation/cabal.... with a singular aim.  I leave it to you the reader to join up the dots between the organisations/" charities"/welfare bodies....the list goes on....bbc, blah, blah ... 

 Part of their strategy seems to be - ---- -  Attack the different sections of the shooting fraternity on their individual front...eg pigeon shooting, corvid control, grouse moorland management et al.... After this multi-prong attack produces the biggest Single identifiable and measurable backlash, these warriors have identified that particular section as the one which may sway bureaucratic/ political regulation control. As part of their divide and rule strategy the WJ cabal will cede "permitted allowances" in...say, corvid and pigeon control....on the basis that .tit-for-tat...say for example....grouse shooting must be regulated and licensed.

As a fieldsport enthusiast you should NOT  think/accept that All is hunky dory on  our side of the fence....Far from it....as regards perception by both the general public ...and  also from a sizeable section within the field sport community. Far be it for me to  have to point a finger at the section of the shooting community which most likely brings down Public umbrage on fieldsports in general.

And so it will proceed,,,.....wildfowling next.....and.... who's next?  It is your guess ... and so ...death by a thousand cuts.....

If you have taken the time to read this - I apologise for the lengthy monologue but it really is long past the time that Fieldsport representative bodies woke up to the fact that they are being outsmarted and outflanked on most, if not all fronts. They must realise that an apologist (BASC) agenda is not acceptable to the respective memberships - and that although they have failed miserably in several battles, the War must go on...but on a much better devised plan and footing. So...if the current generals can't produce, perhaps they should either step aside, or be pushed before it is too late.

I think that  "WE" ..  ie -The Countryside -by which I mean songbirds, shorebirds, moorland birds- livestock  and dare I say it Crops - deserve it. The intensive game farm industry may deserve what it gets but it should not be allowed to drag down those of us who are more in tune with the Great British Countryside.

Amen.

 

Juniper is included in the text as are all eco warriors........That is what et al means!

Edited by panoma1
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On 26/04/2019 at 07:39, mick miller said:

Sorry, BASC have not been proactive at all, whereas the CA have. BASCs answer to the GP debacle? Pay a private firm £120 for a certificate. Great work guys, real champions. 

When it comes to the latest issue they're on the back foot completely, it's taken Field Sports Britain to reveal the unholy alliances between the RSPB, NE and WJ. I'm sorry but I paid my sub for an organisation to be on the front foot when it comes to defending our rights, not for mild mannered, well fed, beardy blokes in green branded gilets to announce their 'disappointment' at such a terrible decision. I'm afraid it's all got a bit too comfortable at the Mill. 

well said

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On 27/04/2019 at 19:13, mudpatten said:

Wasabi, my apologies if I`ve missed it, but are you actually a BASC member?

Yes I am. I've written to them to express my concerns and will give it a few months before I decide what to do regarding membership.

 

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