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Full cabinet!


Rob525
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There is nothing in legislation as far as I’m aware which says it is unlawful to have more firearms in a cabinet than the manufacturers state it is designed to hold. Three gun cabinets are designated as thus for the simple reason that it is what the cabinet is designed to hold comfortably and therefore have three partition slots in the foam provided. 

If it’s locked its locked, and satisfying the requirements by law it is obliged to, as are you. 

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I couldn’t get signed off for a new rifle until l removed a shotgun from my 4 gun cabinet as the FEO was quite adamant that 5 guns weren’t going inside.

So one was given over and put onto my mate next doors SGC and put into his cabinet, can use it anytime l want and everyone is happy.

Where there’s a will etc........

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Ok, I’ll play Devil’s avocado here: If such a thing has attracted the interest of your FEO, why wouldn’t you invest in a decent size cabinet?  I’m sure the letter of the law places no such requirement on you, but why risk getting into an argument with your FEO over that?

I’m new to this shotguns lark, but have had air rifles for many years.  Prior to my first ever FEO visit, I fitted an Ebay special, “7 gun” cabinet, total cost £180 delivered.  Plus another £3.50 for some proper Fischer anchor bolts from Toolstation.

My FEO duly visited, inspected and even passed comment on the fact that he had seen people "trying to cram quarts into pint points", and couldn’t understand why they’d risk damaging and scratching guns worth 10 times what a decent sized cabinet would cost.

You could reasonably argue cost as a factor, but again, I respectfully suggest that if you have, say, a Browning or a Silver Pigeon check by jowl with others in the collection, that argument will seem unconvincing to an FEO.

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Security of the waepons is your responsibilty, how you choose to secure them should be down to you and agreed with the FEO.

 

If he will not see sense ask him to read through the Home Office guidance again.

 

Too many FEOs and Firearms Licensing Departments are making things up as they go..

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Some years ago I asked my then FEO how many guns he would allow in my cabinet. 

The answer was 'as many as it has been designed to take'. 

My cabinet (which is a 30 year old Clays Shooters Supplies model) has 'slots' made of metal with foam facings, and despite it being generously sized it is hard to see how more guns could be accommodated than there are slots.  This is partly because it has some slots across the back, and some on the door with a 'base level' shelf attached to the door to support the door racked guns.  It is also (from the fixed metal design of the slots - immediately apparent how many it is designed for.

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What has actually happened is a friend of mine is having issues with an ex girlfriend and has temporarily surrendered his license so at the drop of a hat I went to his and he signed his guns over to me, I have a 5 and a 3 gun cabinet but his guns have taken me over my capacity temporarily but they lock in and are safe. The FAO called me to confirm I had taken them and he is to have no access etc but commented on the cabinet size and the number of gun, I said I have fitted an extra cabinet since the last time they were out and they said they want to come and inspect this second cabinet. But when they arrive they will see there are a couple top and tailing!

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My observations:

There is nothing (that I know of) in Law to say that you can't have more than 3 guns in a `3 gun cabinet`.  As has been said - it is more to do with what can comfortably fit within said cabinet and is not a legal limit and/or definition.

You can also argue that it is easier to placate the FEO rather than antagonise. The issue there is that they start imposing what are effectively unecessary (and arguably not legally enforceable) requirements. To me, the FEO should know the Law and be perfectly approachable for a discussion about it (or ideally, not even raise it in the first place). Issues have arisen before with Firearms Licensing teams going outside of Govt guidelines and the BASC are very good at fighting your corner.

I have 5 guns in a 3 gun cabinet. Great when I bought my first gun and subsequent 2nd. As the the collection grew, the cabinet didn't. It used to be 3 guns in gun slips. Now they are all in gun socks top to tail. Fit fine, no bumping into each other and it works. Ideally - I'd buy a bigger cabinet. Never had a query from the FEO (although I'm not sure what capacity they view it as being suitable for).

I can understand the FEO perhaps thinking that a 3 gun cabinet only has capacity for 3 guns and where are you storing the others? That is them doing their job. Hopefully they'll just have a look and says it's fine.

Let us know how you get on.

 

Edited by hedge
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10 minutes ago, Rob525 said:

They actually fit ok! It was just if the FAO would be bothered. I'll ask him when he calls to book a date 

You could always remove the foam inserts and tell him it is a gun cabinet, and that the numbers it holds wasn’t specified. 

People seem to forget, it isn’t law to even buy a purpose built gunsafe; if you have a strong room or even a big old safe, and it is obvious no one is getting in or carting it off, then you’ve fulfilled your obligation as far as legislation requires.

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1 hour ago, Rob525 said:

What has actually happened is a friend of mine is having issues with an ex girlfriend and has temporarily surrendered his license so at the drop of a hat I went to his and he signed his guns over to me, I have a 5 and a 3 gun cabinet but his guns have taken me over my capacity temporarily but they lock in and are safe.

Ahh ok, that is slightly different then from the conclusion that I leapt to, apologies.

Please do let us know what your FEO says, after all you have been 'proactive' and responsible

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Do bear in mind that, depending on the area, other security measures, etc. the FEO is entirely within their rights to require you to 'split up' the guns into separate cabinets - thus meaning more work for burglars, etc. in having to get into a second (or further) cabinet(s) (section 19.8 of the Home Office 'Guidance on Firearms Licensing Law')

In addition, in this document https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/117636/firearms-security-handbook.pdf

it is discussed that for a 'substantial number' of firearms, additional security may be required. Exactly what a 'substantial number' means is discussed, and it is mentioned that it is variable, depending on a umber of factors.

 

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This has cropped up before and it doesn't matter if you have a 3-4-5-6-7-8-9-etc listed gun Cabinet, if you can get 20 in and secure that's it.

Yet another examples of FEO flexing muscles they don't have and showing their ignorance.

Be pleasant and accommodating......Simply ask them to advise you what regulations say you can't fit 5  guns in a 3 gun cabinet (for example) as you have looked everywhere and can't find anything.

4 minutes ago, robbiep said:

Do bear in mind that, depending on the area, other security measures, etc. the FEO is entirely within their rights to require you to 'split up' the guns into separate cabinets - thus meaning more work for burglars, etc. in having to get into a second (or further) cabinet(s) (section 19.8 of the Home Office 'Guidance on Firearms Licensing Law')

In addition, in this document https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/117636/firearms-security-handbook.pdf

it is discussed that for a 'substantial number' of firearms, additional security may be required. Exactly what a 'substantial number' means is discussed, and it is mentioned that it is variable, depending on a umber of factors.

 

Absolutely correct, but I see no suggestion of that, simply that you can't put 5 guns in a 3 gun cabinet (or whatever it was).

I have 3 cabinets including a 10 gun capacity unit, so they are happy for large numbers in a single cabinet, All my cabinets list as 5 or above!

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I did once have this queried by Kent Police when I added a fifth gun to my three gun cabinet. I sent them a photo of the guns top and tailed and fitting into the cabinet. This they accepted with no problem.  

OB

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39 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

Someone from our club had this with the MET, he had 5 in a 3 all in with the door locking no problem. He was told to store 2 with an RFD until he had a new cabinet installed, or he wouldn't get his renewal.

That is just stupid if it was simply down to cabinet listed holding!

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47 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

Someone from our club had this with the MET, he had 5 in a 3 all in with the door locking no problem. He was told to store 2 with an RFD until he had a new cabinet installed, or he wouldn't get his renewal.

Even more reason then in the future to remove the partitioning and just call it a gun cabinet. 

FEO sounds like a jobsworth. 

Edited by Scully
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21 minutes ago, Dekers said:

That is just stupid if it was simply down to cabinet listed holding!

 

14 minutes ago, Scully said:

Even more reason then in the future to remove the partitioning and just call it a gun cabinet. 

FEO sounds like a jobsworth. 

I'll find out the outcome next time I see him. But I think he bought a bigger cabinet just for an easy life.

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8 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

Someone from our club had this with the MET, he had 5 in a 3 all in with the door locking no problem. He was told to store 2 with an RFD until he had a new cabinet installed, or he wouldn't get his renewal.

Weird. I am with the Met and have five in a three. They are chilled about it. 

It’s like a game of Tetris trying to get them all in though 

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