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storm in a teacup

Changes To The General Licence

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4 minutes ago, andrewluke said:

i think shooters who are not members of basc etc should contribute to a fighting fund but as i am a basc member i already contribute

I don’t; why should I? I and many others contributed to BASC for donkies years; they eventually built a ‘media’ centre with it. Since then have we gained more as shooters than we’ve lost? We can debate this on another thread if you wish. 

I’m a member of NGO. I pay my way. 

Edited by Scully

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A lad on Stalking directory has started a petition to have the General Licence reinstated, (sorry can't do links), it is being checked at the moment to see if it meets the petition sites standards, please sign it to make those in power know how we feel when it is up and running.

 

Atb scobydog

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3 minutes ago, scobydog said:

A lad on Stalking directory has started a petition to have the General Licence reinstated, (sorry can't do links), it is being checked at the moment to see if it meets the petition sites standards, please sign it to make those in power know how we feel when it is up and running.

 

Atb scobydog

All credit to anyone having a go, but if NE has suspended/revoked the GL on Legal advice (as I understand) no amount of names on a petition will change that!

Edited by Dekers

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20 hours ago, dbarnard said:

The specific licences:

  • General licence GL04: To kill or take certain species of wild birds to prevent serious damage or disease
  • General licence GL05: To kill or take certain species of wild birds to preserve public health or public safety
  • General licence GL06: To kill or take certain species of wild birds to conserve wild birds or flora or fauna

They do not include licences to protect crops.

Think you'll find GL 04 cover crop protection!! You cannot shoot stating crop protection!!

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48 minutes ago, arjimlad said:

https://markavery.info/2019/04/24/wild-justices-legal-challenge-how-the-case-progressed/

 

Worth a read as to how they did it. If they're right that NE failed to implement a compliant licensing regime then there's nothing BASC or anyone could have done about this and it should have been up to NE to put it right sooner.

 

We will have to see what the new licensing regime looks like but the timing is abominable for nesting birds and our farmers.  Hopefully this will lead to a licensing system which is more robust against challenges like these so we all know where we stand on roosting & stubbles etc.

A clue to what any future licence conditions should really include (which is actually an omission with regard to the one just cancelled) in order to be truly effective is contained/explained in the third comment made relating to the quoted link above. And surely, there's no need to spell it out.

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It seems NRW will fall into line and revoke the general license in the near future.They are the last people to stand up for any form of control in the countryside.On previous performances it is already signed sealed and delivered.

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Maybe I should buy some more ferrets! 😀

Our shooting organisations need to specify to NE exactly what is entailed in the shooting of corvids and pigeons, with the emphasis on shooting as a primary recourse rather than the last resort; all other methods being exhausted first simply isn’t practical. 

Farmers see pigeons and corvids on their crops and know without doubt that bangers etc simply don’t work. It’s a fact that the only effect shooting has is to deter for that moment; remove the shooter and the birds will return. We’ve all had those days when the birds are still coming in even when we’re setting up etc. The only effect shooting has is to control numbers ( and I doubt numbers are seriously dented by this )  and that’s what it’s all about. It is a fallacy in my opinion that it has anymore effect at protecting crops than any other method, only that it is a lethal deterrent. 

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If I understand the present situation right, this is where we are;

  1. Natural England (NE) issued Licenses which were poorly written and do not comply with the regulations under which they were issued (in respect of non lethal methods being unsuitable).
  2. The Licenses have been challenged by a 3rd party 'pressure group/body' called Wild Justice (WJ) in court - it seems either the court found in their favour, or NE agreed to settle 'out of court' - it is not clear to me from reports which is true.
  3. NE has capitulated and revoked the licence with virtually no notice.  WJ had expected the ruling to apply from the issue of licenses in January 2020, not immediately (according to one Avery, of their named founders)
  4. Some form of replacement licenses are 'in urgent preparation', but no one is saying what these will allow and under what conditions.
  5. The timing is unfortunate with ground nesting birds, crops etc at particular risk at this time of year.

Now from this - two things seems possible;

  1. Natural England have been thoroughly incompetent in drafting the wording of the licenses - leaving themselves open to challenge and loosing (it must have been a high probability that any wording and small print would be closely examined by the various pressure groups)
  2. Natural England have chosen to word the licenses poorly to enable a challenge to succeed and enable them to revoke the licenses without having to take blame directly.  There are those in NE who are not field sports friendly.
Edited by JohnfromUK

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John I think you have summed it up quite well, we now wait and see what new "General Licences" replace 04, 05 and 06.

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That latest BASC statement made me laugh, essentially BASC stamp their feet to demonstrate their displeasure with NE. So what!

To paraphrase and summarise the response from BASC, 'we are so angry with you we might even stop talking to you'. A wondrous amount of good that will do if our largest shooting organisation decides to take the huff with the body that set the rules.

Perhaps there should be a whole lot less grandstanding to those that are already angry and actually describe in cogent terms exactly what they're going to do to represent their members.

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I would also agree but how long will it take to sort out? I’m not sure how many shoot pigeons etc but if everyone applies for individual licences, I can see a major backlog coming....

Edited by hwr
Typo

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Taken from the Wild Justice website….

“Millions of birds are killed each year under the terms of the General Licences”

Has anyone seen the evidence to back these claims up, I certainly haven’t, I have asked them to produce the evidence for these claims.

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one way to get this sorted is to film crows etc attacking lambs  song birds etc etc  and send them to  Ne  post them on bird watcher sites  when people see for them selfs what crows do it will cause  an uproar.  i know a lot will say its hard to get it on film but surely  some people have

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It must be a clear legal defeat for NE;it is the surprise/nil notice which feels so wrong.Leigh Day the solicitors are a well known firm;I do hope they do not act for many landowners/shoots/Cartridge manufacturers.....I wonder what impact this will have on world class companies such as Hull/Gamebore.....

The General Licence was/is and always has been 'an ***' ..but the impact on farmers yields/song birds especially in April I do think the impact will be quite widespread and for such a 'law' to be revoked at nil notice feels against natural justice in itself...what a mess!

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11 minutes ago, old'un said:

Taken from the Wild Justice website….

 

“Millions of birds are killed each year under the terms of the General Licences”

 

Has anyone seen the evidence to back these claims up, I certainly haven’t, I have asked them to produce the evidence for these claims.

 

Wild Justice have just come back to me saying all their data is taken from GWCT and it proves we are illegally killing millions of birds a year under the general licence, I have looked and can see no links to this data on the GWCT website, anyone know where it might be?

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20 minutes ago, grrclark said:

That latest BASC statement made me laugh, essentially BASC stamp their feet to demonstrate their displeasure with NE. So what!

To paraphrase and summarise the response from BASC, 'we are so angry with you we might even stop talking to you'. A wondrous amount of good that will do if our largest shooting organisation decides to take the huff with the body that set the rules.

Perhaps there should be a whole lot less grandstanding to those that are already angry and actually describe in cogent terms exactly what they're going to do to represent their members.

Careful Mate, we can't sit here and state that BASC just take the money and do nothing as we will be accused of being bitter, twisted people who don't like to waste our money!

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13 minutes ago, scarecrow243 said:

one way to get this sorted is to film crows etc attacking lambs  song birds etc etc  and send them to  Ne  post them on bird watcher sites  when people see for them selfs what crows do it will cause  an uproar.  i know a lot will say its hard to get it on film but surely  some people have

 

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So that's democracy is it, screw up as many peoples days as possible, break the law and get arrested!

Packham is a dangerous idiot and the BBC should disown anyone advocating or condoning breaking the law!

Edited by Dekers

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8 minutes ago, Nuke said:

Are there no studies regarding the effectiveness of non lethal methods?

/M

https://cereals.ahdb.org.uk/media/1191562/11-15_Woodpigeon_factsheet_web.pdf

27 minutes ago, old'un said:

Wild Justice have just come back to me saying all their data is taken from GWCT and it proves we are illegally killing millions of birds a year under the general licence, I have looked and can see no links to this data on the GWCT website, anyone know where it might be?

Well done! Now ask them for the reference to it.

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7 hours ago, old'un said:

I have signed the petition because I am passionate about my shooting and dislike Packham and his agenda.

Ditto

 

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