New GL licence for pigeon not fit for purpose

[Bobba]

It could well be the case that under Tony Junipers guidance  NE deliberately rushed this restrictive GL out  before DEFRA took over on the basis that once issued DEFRA  will not withdraw it. 

[old'un]

Mark Avery’s take on the new GL for pigeons…https://markavery.info/2019/05/04/general-licence-31-woodpigeons-and-serious-damage-to-crops/

[Neverforget]

On ‎04‎/‎05‎/‎2019 at 08:32, gotgcoalman said:

Going to re mortgage the house to buy the amount of mannequins required to cover 1 large field I have permission on..

 

Googled how many would be needed.

One series of tests with mannequins protecting a simulated soybean field from doves found each scarecrow could protect between 0.03 to 0.06 acres. You'd need at least 16 scarecrows per acre, or more than 10,000 per square mile, and even then they'd lose effectiveness once the birds got used to them

 

The logistics make it a non starter on the field which is just this side of 100 acres.

Also at £50 each it's going to be expensive.Don't forget they have to be moved around every day.

dont forget all the walking on the crops

[turbo33]

56 minutes ago, old'un said:

Mark Avery’s take on the new GL for pigeons…https://markavery.info/2019/05/04/general-licence-31-woodpigeons-and-serious-damage-to-crops/

It just makes my blood boil! At some point, if I can, and I will certainly try, to find the time to put together a piece for us. At the time of writing, unlike Avery and Packham, who will be relishing the ego massaging coverage and having a nice  Bank holiday weekend, along with Juniper........I will be out working tomorrow, in the rural environment like lots of you, country matters don't wait because its a Bank Holiday. I don't have a fortune of $4m like Packham, and spend my day wandering around creating chaos, funded by the naive public who believe in his propaganda. like you, I have to work.

Atb to all of you.

T33

Edited May 5, 2019 by turbo33

[Fen tiger]

1 hour ago, old'un said:

Mark Avery’s take on the new GL for pigeons…https://markavery.info/2019/05/04/general-licence-31-woodpigeons-and-serious-damage-to-crops/

It might be petty and totally pointless but go on this link and dislike this ****, and any more garbage this individual posts. 

[Scully]

On a personal note, I'm all for a change in legislation ( as Mr Avery suggests ) if that's what it would take, to allow pigeons to be shot for 'sport', as I think they are one of the most challenging birds as quarry, there is. I would give up a good days driven shooting in preference for a good days decoying anytime, ( for sport or pest purposes ) and I know I'm not the only one. 

Mr Avery is letting his 'real' agenda slip however ( as if we were in any doubt ) by suggesting that the shooting of birds for human consumption should be shot with non-toxic shot, as the entire reason for shooting non-toxic shot ( in the UK ) has nothing to do with human consumption. Further, he suggests that game dealers and retailers selling pigeon for human consumption would need to satisfy themselves that said birds were shot within the terms of the GL. How they would do this, or how it would be policed, he fails to say. 

Anyhow, failing the above, I would like to suggest wood pigeons are removed rom the GL entirely and given the same status as rabbits and rats, and will be making this point, amongst others, when I submit to the DEFRA questionnaire. 

 

[turbo33]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

On a personal note, I'm all for a change in legislation ( as Mr Avery suggests ) if that's what it would take, to allow pigeons to be shot for 'sport', as I think they are one of the most challenging birds as quarry, there is. I would give up a good days driven shooting in preference for a good days decoying anytime, ( for sport or pest purposes ) and I know I'm not the only one. 

Mr Avery is letting his 'real' agenda slip however ( as if we were in any doubt ) by suggesting that the shooting of birds for human consumption should be shot with non-toxic shot, as the entire reason for shooting non-toxic shot ( in the UK ) has nothing to do with human consumption. Further, he suggests that game dealers and retailers selling pigeon for human consumption would need to satisfy themselves that said birds were shot within the terms of the GL. How they would do this, or how it would be policed, he fails to say. 

Anyhow, failing the above, I would like to suggest wood pigeons are removed rom the GL entirely and given the same status as rabbits and rats, and will be making this point, amongst others, when I submit to the DEFRA questionnaire. 

 

Great Post!

 

[Teal]

2 hours ago, Scully said:

 

Anyhow, failing the above, I would like to suggest wood pigeons are removed rom the GL entirely and given the same status as rabbits and rats, and will be making this point, amongst others, when I submit to the DEFRA questionnaire. 

 

I've read this comment a lot, and it sounds good, but it's just not going to happen. Woodpigeons are covered by European legislation which in principle protects all birds. So it's just not possible as it stands, hence why they generated the GLs in the first place, for birds that need controlling. That's why there are only GLs for birds and not foxes etc.

[Scully]

40 minutes ago, Teal said:

I've read this comment a lot, and it sounds good, but it's just not going to happen. Woodpigeons are covered by European legislation which in principle protects all birds. So it's just not possible as it stands, hence why they generated the GLs in the first place, for birds that need controlling. That's why there are only GLs for birds and not foxes etc.

Yes, I know it’s not going to happen, I genuinely do. Nor do I ever believe they will be allowed to be shot for ‘sport’, even with a closed season, but I’ll still be making the point. Woodpigeons are a pest species and should be treat as such. 

[MacSxS]

i get that, but why can't the farming/shooting community crowd fund a lobby group of our own, to push for a change that law? We are supposed to leaving the EU after all.

[lancer425]

6 minutes ago, MacSxS said:

i get that, but why can't the farming/shooting community crowd fund a lobby group of our own, to push for a change that law? We are supposed to leaving the EU after all.

I do not understand law or how parliament works well enough to say why or why pigeons and corvids can not be back on the pest list as in the 1954 act.

But after 9th of april 1979 we were signed into the bird directive and the rest is history, but we had over 40 years running with the GL and not one issue as far as i know. Wild Justice ended all that and its time to re write the GLs . I think thats the easiest route, but If the New GLs are  not robust enough the WJ will go right back to court and start all over again.

 They are effectively forcing the government to take action against the Countryside its wildlife and people, to full fill their own personal agendas.

I can not envisage  the government going down the Individual licence route its complicated and NE can not operate such a system, and i dont think the government will want to fund this, and passing on to farmers and shooters is unfair and i feel the government wont want to re visit this any time soon.

Are there any others on Pigeon watch who could please take the time to explain to us lesser mortals how or even if dropping the EU bird directive or moving birds off the list to vermin might be brought about? That is if it ever could be possible in law.

 

[Wasabi]

On 04/05/2019 at 08:33, turbo33 said:

You would really struggle to understand, that this was going to be anything but a disaster for us. Either Gove is more daft than he looks, or it’s a deliberate move. 

It’s more complicated than that, they will have to be a mix of LGBT! 😂😂

I work in Education! Gove really is as stupid as he looks. He ****ed our side of things up and then got shifted out tge way. We're all still trying to work out how to fix things.

[TR1]

Take a look at the link , much of the content of the new GL31 seems to be based on this

.https://cereals.ahdb.org.uk/media/1191562/11-15_Woodpigeon_factsheet_web.pdf

they have selectively used this report and left out the content supporting covert shooting.

Seems to me that some of the content could be used to respond if challenged while shooting under  the GL.

 

 

[panoma1]

45 minutes ago, TR1 said:

Take a look at the link , much of the content of the new GL31 seems to be based on this

.https://cereals.ahdb.org.uk/media/1191562/11-15_Woodpigeon_factsheet_web.pdf

they have selectively used this report and left out the content supporting covert shooting.

Seems to me that some of the content could be used to respond if challenged while shooting under  the GL.

 

 

I saw that and came to the same conclusion! NE have no practical experience themselves, just quote selective parts from someone else's work, that support their agenda!....and leave out anything that doesn't!

Like the police failing to disclose evidence to the defence, that would weaken their case against someone accused of a crime!

[NatureBoy]

30 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

I saw that and came to the same conclusion! NE have no practical experience themselves, just quote selective parts from someone else's work, that support their agenda!....and leave out anything that doesn't!

Like the police failing to disclose evidence to the defence, that would weaken their case against someone accused of a crime!

Me to! Think the same. Packham has got away with calling shooters "the nasty brigade" on BBC programs for years! He's now calling us "weekend casual shooters an wildlife vandals". Where is his proven evidence? Why is WJ coming out with this stuff and accusations now!? Has there been any studies other complaints to the orgs gov bodies or prosecutions regarding pest control or the GL? All the info advise and guides  out there i can find  have been around for years! We have followed these rules and regs and it works! It's not like these species are in decline! We are merely managing to control them! It's like they trying to reinvent the wheel! They should be listening to us! Tapping into are vast knowledge of these species how we control them effectively and of wildlife the countryside and conservation in general! We have been doing it for years for no reward or agenda! Another lot of ears to farmers, land managers and keepers. Helping spot and take care of problems and act as a deterrent to the rise in rural crime!   NB

[old'un]

Well when I do eventually get out on the pigeons here’s my extra kit, which will not be placed anywhere near to where the pigeon want….rope bangers, 6 feed bags on canes, and one of these…https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Brown-hawk-Kite-kits-Bird-Scarer-Protect-Farmers-Crops-Comes-With-A-Free-Line/162128189105?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&var=461092804932&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

(unless their use would be impractical, without effect or disproportionate in the circumstances)

[turbo33]

Hmmm, that would be good for scaring away crows, and being compliant, bit like the artificial pigeon with outstretched wings 

[Dibble]

The Tactic used by other parties seems to be pick on the easy target and use your gain to lever the difficult one. Attack shooting Pigeons so you can stop people shooting Corvids so you can stop Grouse shooting.

Lets look at this from our point of view, can anyone think of a reason why Feral Pigeon aren't classed as vermin? 

Grey Squirrel?

Parakeets?

 

[Old farrier]

43 minutes ago, turbo33 said:

Hmmm, that would be good for scaring away crows, and being compliant, bit like the artificial pigeon with outstretched wings 

I’ve got a stuffed fox with a really aggressive snarling face 

I’ve decided it’s the apex predator of my area 

that should be better than a scarecrow 

It’s working really well frightened off the pigeon

sadly crows are coming from miles away 

 

[Teal]

11 minutes ago, Dibble said:

Lets look at this from our point of view, can anyone think of a reason why Feral Pigeon aren't classed as vermin? 

Because they are a bird, and so are protected under European legislation as all birds are.

[Dibble]

7 minutes ago, Teal said:

Because they are a bird, and so are protected under European legislation as all birds are.

But the example of flying Rats is the crack in the argument that you start with......

Edited May 8, 2019 by Dibble

[turbo33]

26 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

I’ve got a stuffed fox with a really aggressive snarling face 

I’ve decided it’s the apex predator of my area 

that should be better than a scarecrow 

It’s working really well frightened off the pigeon

sadly crows are coming from miles away 

 

At least you're trying your best OF! 😀

[Teal]

10 minutes ago, Dibble said:

But the example of flying Rats is the crack in the argument that you start with......

But they're not a rat, they are a bird.

[Dibble]

13 minutes ago, Teal said:

But they're not a rat, they are a bird.

Colloquially referred to as Flying Rats??????

If you can get people to see the difference between a feral pigeon and a swan you can get them to see they should be treated differently in Law, even if they aren't in current Law . The idea they should be protected equally is absurd as absurd as equating Water Voles and Sewer rats, Otters and Mink or Muntjac and Hippos.

[JDog]

No one should ever describe wood pigeons as 'flying rats'.