What Could Be Next

[wymberley]

Simply as an exercise for those liike me with nothing better to do at the moment.

Let's assume that the new and revised new General Licences meet our requirements such that stubble and roost shooting - obviously pigeon here - with no breeding season restriction are issued in order to enable us to reduce crop damage. Now, this would mean that WJ are not best pleased so what do we think they'd try next because they're certainly not going to give in. My first move would be to find and dust off my PAS certificate.

[Doggone]

They’re already trying to stop pheasant and partridge chicks being delivered on lorries through the channel tunnel, saying it doesn’t meet our animal welfare standards. 

Andy

this is I believe after they’ve already stopped deliveries on the ferries

Edited May 4, 2019 by Doggone
Add info

[turbo33]

See Welsh General Licence below. We all have to up our game as they certainly will. 

The rural community are by nature a passive lot. This is our downfall and if we don’t take charge there will be no stopping Wild Justice. 

[lancer425]

13 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Simply as an exercise for those liike me with nothing better to do at the moment.

Let's assume that the new and revised new General Licences meet our requirements such that stubble and roost shooting - obviously pigeon here - with no breeding season restriction are issued in order to enable us to reduce crop damage. Now, this would mean that WJ are not best pleased so what do we think they'd try next because they're certainly not going to give in. My first move would be to find and dust off my PAS certificate.

OAP Bus Passes Thats next trust me on this. I have been waiting my whole life for a bus pass and just like my pension and Brexit  i doubt i will ever get to see it despite being promised this for so long i don’t think it will ever happen.

[Dave at kelton]

Given that GLs have now been called into defra to deal with then the only thing they can do is to make representations like other interested parties on them.  As to their general approach to field sports they will doubtless do all they can to discredit them. All it means is we have to be even more careful what we do, say and portray. Regrettably there are too many loose cannons and social media addicts who cannot be censored.

Edited May 4, 2019 by Dave at kelton
Incorrect

[old'un]

More to the point, what do we need to-do to combat/counter future attacks on us, ideas on a post card please

[bostonmick]

Remove pigeons and carrion from the license all together. Class them the same as rats. 

[Shufti]

We as a group have no clout what so ever..... but the farming industry certainly has.

[marsh man]

I dare say at some in the near future we will see big changes in game shooting , possibly removing Woodcock off the list along with Hares , more changes with pigeon shooting ( that's not hard to guess ) and a continuing threat to all field sports .

[old man]

17 hours ago, wymberley said:

Simply as an exercise for those liike me with nothing better to do at the moment.

Let's assume that the new and revised new General Licences meet our requirements such that stubble and roost shooting - obviously pigeon here - with no breeding season restriction are issued in order to enable us to reduce crop damage. Now, this would mean that WJ are not best pleased so what do we think they'd try next because they're certainly not going to give in. My first move would be to find and dust off my PAS certificate.

I think that given the resounding success of the first legal challenge that they WJ, due to their agenda will pick and choose till the money runs out (if ever) Farmed Salmon, Grouse, Woodcock, Pheasant,  Sheep, Cows. Whatever they desire to meddle in, wherever the legal invulnerability lies?

Their clever manipulation of status, having legal invulnerability, all funded by others and general ignorance gives them the perfect endless playground?

It seemed at the time very strange to me how quickly NE caved in, Ineptitude? Undue Influence? Ignorance? Arrogance? Lack of care for cruelty to livestock? Whatever can be surmised, the truth will never be known? Shame on all involved, just another sorry state that we have come to expect from those in charge. Mediocrity being their gold standard.

Clearly from experience it seems that wherever things are not specific/specified, challenges can be made so change must be made to the legal status to prevent this? Simple really?

 

 

 

17 hours ago, Shufti said:

We as a group have no clout what so ever..... but the farming industry certainly has.

Maybe not while subsidies can be withheld?

[silver fox 1]

 One thing is for sure groups like wild justice won’t be going away any time soon,  and I pretty sure the pheasants will be next but there’s no point in doing it now they will do it in the season that way it causes maximum  disruption  I really do hope I’m wrong,  it’s all about funding for these guys,  so we need to hit them where it hurts anything bad they can get their hands on they will use against us,  they call us murderers  we really could do with getting  our point across to people and try to  portray shooting in a good light show the good  it can do  and the benefits for wildlife and crops that way Some of the people might not  donate money to these,   The way I see it at the moment it’s all one-sided 

Edited May 5, 2019 by silver fox 1

[wymberley]

56 minutes ago, old man said:

I think that given the resounding success of the first legal challenge that they WJ, due to their agenda will pick and choose till the money runs out (if ever) Farmed Salmon, Grouse, Woodcock, Pheasant,  Sheep, Cows. Whatever they desire to meddle in, wherever the legal invulnerability lies?

Their clever manipulation of status, having legal invulnerability, all funded by others and general ignorance gives them the perfect endless playground?

It seemed at the time very strange to me how quickly NE caved in, Ineptitude? Undue Influence? Ignorance? Arrogance? Lack of care for cruelty to livestock? Whatever can be surmised, the truth will never be known? Shame on all involved, just another sorry state that we have come to expect from those in charge. Mediocrity being their gold standard.

Clearly from experience it seems that wherever things are not specific/specified, challenges can be made so change must be made to the legal status to prevent this? Simple really?

 

 

 

Maybe not while subsidies can be withheld?

I hear where you're coming from. However, I'm not quite so sure that they had much of a challenge or, as yet, a resounding success. I believe that they were 'preaching to the converted' as it were in the case of Juniper and we need to see what Defra come up with before any level of their success can be measured. One thing is certain and that is that they might just have made themselves unpopular. Gove will be smarting from having his tea leaves read from on high and is not going to forget it.

[turbo33]

13 minutes ago, wymberley said:

I hear where you're coming from. However, I'm not quite so sure that they had much of a challenge or, as yet, a resounding success. I believe that they were 'preaching to the converted' as it were in the case of Juniper and we need to see what Defra come up with before any level of their success can be measured. One thing is certain and that is that they might just have made themselves unpopular. Gove will be smarting from having his tea leaves read from on high and is not going to forget it.

Good post👍

[shalfordninja33]

10 minutes ago, wymberley said:

I hear where you're coming from. However, I'm not quite so sure that they had much of a challenge or, as yet, a resounding success. I believe that they were 'preaching to the converted' as it were in the case of Juniper and we need to see what Defra come up with before any level of their success can be measured. One thing is certain and that is that they might just have made themselves unpopular. Gove will be smarting from having his tea leaves read from on high and is not going to forget it.

My hope is that WJ and co have shot themselves in the foot in a way that they never intended. They may end up losIng much more support than they hoped to gain from this.

Hopefully the move of GL control from NE to DEFRA will make this kind of incident much more difficult to carry out in future. 

[old man]

5 hours ago, wymberley said:

I hear where you're coming from. However, I'm not quite so sure that they had much of a challenge or, as yet, a resounding success. I believe that they were 'preaching to the converted' as it were in the case of Juniper and we need to see what Defra come up with before any level of their success can be measured. One thing is certain and that is that they might just have made themselves unpopular. Gove will be smarting from having his tea leaves read from on high and is not going to forget it.

Well, whatever challenge was made, the result was maybe a bigger success than they hoped for unless it was planned from within?

I applaud your hope that they have become unpopular but generally the public don't appear to give a fig as long as it doesn't affect them directly. Seems like Scotland and Wales may have been written to reminding them of the challenge result?

Gove is I hope smarting from the political slap which may not have happened if he had a proper grip?  

Hopefully DEFRA have more intelligence and put this sorry situation beyond challenge.

[wymberley]

2 hours ago, old man said:

Well, whatever challenge was made, the result was maybe a bigger success than they hoped for unless it was planned from within?

I applaud your hope that they have become unpopular but generally the public don't appear to give a fig as long as it doesn't affect them directly. Seems like Scotland and Wales may have been written to reminding them of the challenge result?

Gove is I hope smarting from the political slap which may not have happened if he had a proper grip?  

Hopefully DEFRA have more intelligence and put this sorry situation beyond challenge.

Yep, totally agree about the public, but I was thinking more about NE and Defra itself. The problem that we have though is that whereas we didn't initiate either of the two situations we may also be unpopular by association. On another thread Mark Avery's blog site was mentioned in as much as he could be a danger so I had a shufti. And lo and behold who jumped out at me from a 3 year old guest blog? None other than Shifty. First situation - NTS - which we didn't instigate, but there we are mixed up with the LAG. And now the current mess which has resulted in Defra getting an increased workload which they thought they'd got shot of. Again, not down to us, but Defra could be forgiven for not feeling all that generous to we shooters under the circumstances. Once again, totally agree with your final sentence and just pray that any success by WJ turns out to be no more than mediocre when Defra release the modified GLs.

[ShootingEgg]

Looks like hares in breeding season could be next.. 

Thoughts? 

[mossy835]

they have not done with us yet,there is more to come.

[lancer425]

15 minutes ago, mossy835 said:

they have not done with us yet,there is more to come.

There as always been more to come, they saw a weak spot and went for it, they even dropped on with the judge at court, could not believe their luck with Tony Junipers appointment and  the rest is history. This is not over yet not by a long way, the government taking action with  the DEFRA involvement might help the country’s position.

Natural England are a very powerful organisation and are supposed to be unbiased, i think we have good reason to suspect Juniper is not perhaps as unbiased as he should be given his position. I am not sure if he could be challenged in anyway in this respect, but it would be nice to think these extremists got some bad luck at some point. Juniper being the shortest Posting in NEs history would be a nice touch a shame its just a fantasy.

[Novice]

11 hours ago, ShootingEgg said:

Looks like hares in breeding season could be next.. 

Thoughts? 

Where have you seen that? 

I picked up on the fact that Wild Justice had met with Lincs police to discuss hare coursing. If they think that introducing a closed season for brown hares, not just restricting sales of dead ones, is going to reduce illegal hare coursing, then they're having a laugh. There are plenty of laws that can be referred to in bringing chanrges in these situatuons, without adding further legislation. If solid convictions can't be obtained with the current suite of charging options, then that itself needs looking at. 

My concern here is that theyre picking at the edges, seeing what they can get away with and building up confidence before turning the screw further on the bigger ticket items. 

My other thought when I heard that they were looking at hare coursing was that it might be trespass related, their real intention being an angle on trail hunting where the hounds end up off piste a bit. Mark my words, this lot are no friends of landowners, farmers or the shooting community, no matter how they try to present themselves 

[bumpy22]

11 hours ago, ShootingEgg said:

Looks like hares in breeding season could be next.. 

Thoughts? 

The majority of hares caught would be out of the breeding season anyway. I have no attachment to these types but no some of the dogmen through my ferreting work and in all fairness they are not summer hunters. Even the most simplest of them would not be running dogs during the heat of spring and summer to be fair. I can't see any point n in shooting them where I am and especially not in breeding season.

 

[walt1980]

Personally I think with animal welfare groups and the amount of opposition to shooting increasing it wouldn’t surprise me if it all gets really really regulated. Buying licences to shoot vermin/pest as we all know them (pigeons rabbits crows magpies etc) then it’ll be pheasant shoots getting more and more expensive to run, effectively meaning it’ll be the more wealthy who can afford to do it (£50+ a bird for a cheap shoot). Grouse will end up out of bounds all together. Deer will end up on the list for people who are registered and have done DSC courses, and have to be registered company for deer control. 

I honestly think this could be beginning of the end for anything other than target shooting, it’ll take time but give it 20 years and it’ll be a thing of the past. 

Thats why I’m putting in for more variations on my fac now and booking a grouse shoot for this year! 

[ShootingEgg]

18 minutes ago, bumpy22 said:

The majority of hares caught would be out of the breeding season anyway. I have no attachment to these types but no some of the dogmen through my ferreting work and in all fairness they are not summer hunters. Even the most simplest of them would not be running dogs during the heat of spring and summer to be fair. I can't see any point n in shooting them where I am and especially not in breeding season.

 

I don't shoot them in our area. We don't have a large amount of them. 

Saw this through fieldsport tv, it was a headline of a newspaper article. Unsure how much truth is in it. 

[old man]

12 hours ago, wymberley said:

Yep, totally agree about the public, but I was thinking more about NE and Defra itself. The problem that we have though is that whereas we didn't initiate either of the two situations we may also be unpopular by association. On another thread Mark Avery's blog site was mentioned in as much as he could be a danger so I had a shufti. And lo and behold who jumped out at me from a 3 year old guest blog? None other than Shifty. First situation - NTS - which we didn't instigate, but there we are mixed up with the LAG. And now the current mess which has resulted in Defra getting an increased workload which they thought they'd got shot of. Again, not down to us, but Defra could be forgiven for not feeling all that generous to we shooters under the circumstances. Once again, totally agree with your final sentence and just pray that any success by WJ turns out to be no more than mediocre when Defra release the modified GLs.

Have slowly become used to being unpopular by association since having my first gun. 

Sadly the populace seem to the most part happy to ride into oblivion as long as meat still comes in little boxes, insects will too with a topping of dandelion leaves and daytime TV isn't rationed.

Incestuous relationships (Google definition, adjective 2) behind closed doors seems to be the current way with most things Governmental and Political these days, openness, honesty and integrity in short supply as it's more difficult to obtain a quick result that way as we move smartly on to the next cover up? 

Just hoping DEFRA don't continue to use the same incompetent in house legal eagles to draft it? Come back Rumpole! 😩

 

[wymberley]

On 06/05/2019 at 08:20, walt1980 said:

Personally I think with animal welfare groups and the amount of opposition to shooting increasing it wouldn’t surprise me if it all gets really really regulated. Buying licences to shoot vermin/pest as we all know them (pigeons rabbits crows magpies etc) then it’ll be pheasant shoots getting more and more expensive to run, effectively meaning it’ll be the more wealthy who can afford to do it (£50+ a bird for a cheap shoot). Grouse will end up out of bounds all together. Deer will end up on the list for people who are registered and have done DSC courses, and have to be registered company for deer control. 

I honestly think this could be beginning of the end for anything other than target shooting, it’ll take time but give it 20 years and it’ll be a thing of the past. 

Thats why I’m putting in for more variations on my fac now and booking a grouse shoot for this year! 

I don't think it's all doom and gloom. There is an ongoing need to feed a growing population utilising a shrinking land mass because there's also a need for more housing. Therefore, the need to optimise food production will entail continuing pest control - a fact that will be recognised. This will eventually be conceded by the likes of NE and I've always figured that when this happens, they'll change track. Not going to spell it out on here as you never know who'll read it, but there's a clue in my first post.