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Current situation please


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6 hours ago, JJsDad said:

In which case, I am complying with GL31 by shooting into the air to scare them away. As you quite rightly say, its not the Police or anti-shooting brigade that are making a big thing about this, its ourselves trying to out-guess all the possibilities of breaking the law contained in the new GL.

No-one really gave to much notice to what was contained in the old GL04 until all this chaos kicked off.

Nail on head :good:

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14 hours ago, mossy835 said:

because if you cant prove you have done it all right,

Providing both my farmer and myself are singing from the same hymn sheet that his crop is being damaged. And agree our combined efforts have failed to deter the birds, then GL31 allows them to be shot. Providing I comply with the licence and maintain some form of simple record of damage and deterent action taken, I dont have to prove anything. Its more a case of whoever is doing the accusing having to prove I didnt comply. The vast majority agree the document is unworkable and unfit for purpose, but dont expect a new revised and shooter friendly version out shortly; because it simply aint going to happen. You either run with what we have currently got and work out the loop-holes or you are going to be chasing rabbits & squirrels for some time. Did you honestly comply with every sentence in the 3 General Licence`s before all this current debacle kicked off ??

 

Edited by JJsDad
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On 07/05/2019 at 20:19, mossy835 said:

well  im not shooting any, untill its sorted out, i have never shot so many squirrels in 2 weeks since its started,with the new gl.

I watched fieldsports last night and they mentioned the new GL states you cant eat shot pigeons!?! Is that part of the new GL? have I missed reading it?? 

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17 minutes ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

they mentioned the new GL states you cant eat shot pigeons!?!

No you havent misread it. Somebody is quoting without even having taken the trouble to read GL31 !

Here is what the licence says:

Sales and consumption of birds
(x) Woodpigeons killed or taken under this licence may be eaten and in accordance with government policy may be sold for human consumption. IMPORTANT: this licence does not permit the killing of woodpigeons solely for commercial and / or recreational purposes, and only activities conducted in accordance with this licence are authorised. If there is evidence that this licence is being used inappropriately then Natural England may review this licence.

Edited by JJsDad
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29 minutes ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

hello, any link

Their weekly youtube video on fieldsports Britain. 

https://youtu.be/3cWGts-_t00

Im sure as part of the video and info they go through they state cant eat. 

16 minutes ago, JJsDad said:

No you havent misread it. Somebody is quoting without even having taken the trouble to read GL31 !

Here is what the licence says:

Sales and consumption of birds
(x) Woodpigeons killed or taken under this licence may be eaten and in accordance with government policy may be sold for human consumption. IMPORTANT: this licence does not permit the killing of woodpigeons solely for commercial and / or recreational purposes, and only activities conducted in accordance with this licence are authorised. If there is evidence that this licence is being used inappropriately then Natural England may review this licence.

So in a way, if i went out tomorrow, shot one and ate it, if thats all i did, i am in breach of the license. As im doing it for recreational purpose, but if I was sat at the growers farm protecting the crop im within the law to consume it. 

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20 minutes ago, ShootingEgg said:

So in a way, if i went out tomorrow, shot one and ate it, if thats all i did, i am in breach of the license.

Eating it is not an offence !  An offence is committed if you admit to not attemping to previously deter the bird(s) using non-lethal methods and it is not actively causing crop damage.  If it is not actively causing crop damage and you shoot it, this is classed as recreational shooting. The fact that the bird was on a flight path to somebodies crops when you shot it, is why amongst other points, the licence is being lambasted as flawed and unworkable.

Edited by JJsDad
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Can anybody clarify the legal issues implicit in Conditions 8 and 12 of the new General Licences?

Condition 8(e):

"Any person using this licence must be able to show, if asked by an officer of Natural England or the Police ..... what lawful methods have been. and are being, taken ....."

Is a verbal statement likely to be acceptable, or does the word "show" entitle Natural England to demand photographs and/or video footage?

Has the term "an officer of Natural England" been defined, or should we assume that any school leaver employed by NE will have been awarded powers equivalent to those of a police officer, and is entitled to enter farm steadings, interview farm staff, and make judgements about whether evidence is adequate?

Does Condition 8 overturn the normal principle of justice, demanding that a person must provide evidence of innocence, in situations where there are unlikely to be any independent witnesses?

 

Condition 12:

"Good Practice" means Natural England's 'Wildlife Management Advice Note: Legal measures to resolve conflict with wild birds' and any other relevant good practice published by the British Association for Shooting and Conservation or the Game and Wildlife Conservation  Trust.   If there are conflicts between this good practice and the terms and conditions of this licence, the licence will prevail.

 

This suggests to that good practice is only a secondary consideration, subordinate to Natural England's overall aim of restricting pest control.

Are the GL conditions liable to be varied at any time at the whim of NE staff?

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2 hours ago, McSpredder said:

does the word "show" entitle Natural England to demand photographs and/or video footage?

All totally valid points, and part of the reason that our sporting organisations are fighting tooth and nail to make the point that the licence is unworkable and unfit for purpose. The word "show" implies that some sort of record or image is required. If so, why not state that. Typical legal-mumbo-jumbo. With virtually everyone nowadays having a mobile phone with camera, my plan would be to take a number of happy snaps of whatever deterents my farmer(s) have or are employing and the damage that has been caused. I would also want a 5 minute chat to ensure we are singing from the same hymn sheet, i.e: what he has tried, when did he put them out, when did he move them etc. I also want to ensure he has my mobile no & is going to ring and ask me where I am, in the highly unlikely event that some jobs-worth turns up at the farm waving his NE pass around. Because I am highly amused by NEs advice about dummy (decoy) birds with outstretched wings being a deterent, I will make a point of taking happy snaps of my Hypa-flaps which I will be using to try to scare birds away.

Edited by JJsDad
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9 minutes ago, JJsDad said:

All totally valid points, and part of the reason that our sporting organisations are fighting tooth and nail to make the point that the licence is unworkable and unfit for purpose. The word "show" implies that some sort of record or image is required. If so, why not state that. Typical legal-mumbo-jumbo. With virtually everyone nowadays having a mobile phone with camera, my plan would be to take a number of happy snaps of whatever deterents my farmer(s) have or are employing and the damage that has been caused. I would also want a 5 minute chat to ensure we are singing from the same hymn sheet, i.e: what he has tried, when did he put them out, when did he move them etc. I also want to ensure he has my mobile no & is going to ring and ask me where I am, in the highly unlikely event that some jobs-worth turns up at the farm waving his NE pass around. Because I am highly amused by NEs advice about dummy (decoy) birds with outstretched wings being a deterent, I will make a point of taking happy snaps of my Hypa-flaps which I will be using to try to scare birds away.

 

 

Unless the part highlighted in section 8, (b) comes into play?

 

Section 8 (b) Before using the licence reasonable endeavours must have been made to resolve the problem using the lawful methods identified in Table 1(unless their use would be impractical, without effect or disproportionate in the circumstances) and any other lawful methods that may be appropriate in the circumstances

Edited by old'un
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11 minutes ago, old'un said:

Unless the part highlighted in section 8, (b) comes into play?

Correct. A legal minefield that most Police Officers would shudder at trying to enforce I would have thought. How many gas-guns, scarecrows (dressed in my clothes as suggested by NE) and other deterents does it take to become "impractical" or "disproportionate". Studies have shown that pigeons quickly get used to the normal range of deterents. Shooting reduces crop damage but does not reduce the overall population. Noticeable reduction in numbers is only brought about by extremes of bad weather with snow and freezing conditions for extended periods. With the change in weather patterns over the years, these conditions do not regularly occur, so the pigeon population increases year by year.

Edited by JJsDad
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On 07/05/2019 at 20:46, JJsDad said:

The answer you are looking for is yes !

GL31 has been issued which covers Pigeons causing crop damage. While our field sports organisations and NGO are saying its unworkable and flawed and are putting up a case to DEFRA for it to be amended, I would suggest that is not going to happen for some time. DEFRA is only now in the process of gathering information and trying to sort out the unholy mess that Natural England has created, so I wouldnt hold my breath waiting for an amended and simplified GL31.

Providing you can show damage is being caused and you have tried non-lethal methods to deter them, crack on; but take the time to read through the licence and ensure your landowner can support your claim that all non-lethal methods have been tried and damage to crops warrants shooting them as a last resort.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/woodpigeons-licence-to-kill-or-take-them-to-prevent-serious-damage-to-crops-gl31?utm_source=fceffae6-dd6a-4fec-be04-e82469da4f02&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=govuk-notifications&utm_content=immediate

Received this today apparently latest update. 

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3 minutes ago, TR1 said:

The latest update is only to the interactive map showing where protected birds are NOT the actual license GL31

But the text is quite clear now. If there's a problem the farmer can say go as before just make sure all efforts to deter have be tried. Clear enough for me. 

5 minutes ago, mellors said:

But the text is quite clear now. If there's a problem the farmer can say go as before just make sure all efforts to deter have be tried. Clear enough for me. 

 

Screenshot_20190513-163506.png

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36 minutes ago, mossy835 said:

so can it be used now.if peas are being hit.

Yes. See the extract below. But you really need to read and comply with the licence (GL 31). I am not being scratchy, but you cant have read it in detail  or you wouldnt be asking the question ! It can be any crop providing it has been grown for its financial value. The likelehood of someone challengening you is between slim and non-existent, but you need to have read & understood what deterent steps you and the grower have & are taking so that you are singing from the same hymn sheet just in case. Its complacency & non-compliance that will catch someone out.

You can use this general licence if you grow crops on a sufficient scale to have financial value, or you act on behalf of a grower.

To prevent serious damage to crops, this licence allows you to:

  • kill or take woodpigeons
  • take, damage or destroy woodpigeon nests and eggs

You must use permitted methods of control stated on the licence and comply with its other terms and conditions.

 

Edited by JJsDad
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There is just one thing, if you should be challenged and legal action is taken against you for not following it to the letter, there’s also the likelihood the land owner will also have legal action taken against them.

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Don’t know if anyone as read this but it’s the EU document on hunting under Council Directive 79/409/EEC, been reading to see if there any loopholes, it’s a bit of a read so get yourself a drink, I have been reading it for about 30 minutes, I am now on page 16….http://ec.europa.eu/environment/nature/conservation/wildbirds/hunting/docs/hunting_guide_en.pdf

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On ‎07‎/‎05‎/‎2019 at 19:59, David.Evans said:

Sorry lads 

I'm totally confused can we use magnets , bouncers and decoys after trying all none leathal means 

Atb 

if i put them out i can honestly say the pigeons would move on, ive never had ay luck with a magnet

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24 minutes ago, rheth said:

so am I right in thinking you only need to adhere to the written licence and do not need to apply for one to have on your person.seems like back to business as usual.

Correct, you do not need an individual licence for pigeons, as for back to normal may I suggest you read the new GL for pigeons, if you have read and understand it and you can comply with the wording then you are good to go.

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