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That can be due to lead build up in the barrel and that 4th pellet scrubs some of it off affecting accuracy just a touch. 

A barrel clean could help .

Some barrels need to be kept clean others arent as badly effected (bsa s can run dirty for years and years ) 

Ive cleaned my oldest ultra once in 9 years. 

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1 hour ago, Ultrastu said:

That can be due to lead build up in the barrel and that 4th pellet scrubs some of it off affecting accuracy just a touch. 

A barrel clean could help .

Some barrels need to be kept clean others arent as badly effected (bsa s can run dirty for years and years ) 

Ive cleaned my oldest ultra once in 9 years. 

hello L T 1 pellet lube will stop all that :good: 

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21 hours ago, Ttfjlc said:

What I'm curious about is what size groups are people happy with at any given range with their own guns? 

 

A couple of cards from when I was pellet testing for the 100 KT.  At 25 yd, indoors, off a bean bag, all 14 shots.

 

947529251_DSCF2300(1).jpg.e8425ed0d6acb13bf932e31a4e9895bf.jpg1158855406_DSCF2299(1).jpg.1bf7be81d2b986f591a21dc0c672ad5e.jpg

 

I can’t be doing with this pellet on pellet or single hole malarky,  I measure the group using a Helix metric circles template.  I do not consider 12 mm diameter very good.  Any group the size of a 5p, which is 18 mm I would think was rubbish.  Obviously a 5-shot group is not the same beast as a 14-shot group, and if the best a rifle could produce was 5 shots in the blue I would not use it on live quarry.

Ultrastu certainly seems to have that BSA sorted.  Now that’s a group.

Edited by wobbly bob 2
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Oldypigeonpopper, I took the o-ring out of the barrel band so will see how that goes, also went to my RFD to get my bottle filled and he didn't have any LT1 but had an opened bottle of Napier lube and gave me that free of charge.

Mice, interesting idea about different aimpoints, my S400 was single shot so know what you mean about having to reset everytime, I also find after putting 4 or 5 pellets close together it gets harder since you've taken out the centre of the target. 

UltraStu, I've cleaned the barrel on my hw100 3 or 4 times already in less than a months ownership, my S400 never needed to have a barrel clean in 2 years, funny things these pcps. 

Wobbly Bob 2, I take it you don't use your KT for hunting or did you find a better pellet than AADFs? I find it intriguing that you say 5p groups are rubbish, when I saw my RFD today he said he'd be happy with 5p groups at 40 yards and he certainly knows his stuff. 

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Thing is with group size is .we can all get hung up on it. But does it really matter ? 

Well unless your shooting bench rest comps where 2mm left of centre can be the difference between  win or loose. Then id say not so much .

Hft is shot out to 45 yds and they dont have targets smaller than 40 mm at 45 yds .and i think the smallest target is 15 mm up to 20 yds. Hunting - when persuing quarry its rare to shoot from a bench rested position, even prone shots (for me at least ) make up a small percentage of hunting shots .

So rock steady is rarely guaranteed. 

So your never gonna be able to place your shot exactly to the mm where you want when hunting (and thats without taking into account all the other factors like. Wind , range , elevation, the animal its self moving. Etc etc .

The old adage of 1 inch kill zone and all pellets inside it is still a good gauge of an accurate shot .

I use my knock down targets .with 15 /25 /38 mm kill zones .place them out at random ranges (with out knowing them ) and shoot using my best skills to judge range and wind etc .

If i drop them then im very happy .

As gun and man are in harmony 

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14 hours ago, wobbly bob 2 said:

 

A couple of cards from when I was pellet testing for the 100 KT.  At 25 yd, indoors, off a bean bag, all 14 shots.

 

947529251_DSCF2300(1).jpg.e8425ed0d6acb13bf932e31a4e9895bf.jpg1158855406_DSCF2299(1).jpg.1bf7be81d2b986f591a21dc0c672ad5e.jpg

 

I can’t be doing with this pellet on pellet or single hole malarky,  I measure the group using a Helix metric circles template.  I do not consider 12 mm diameter very good.  Any group the size of a 5p, which is 18 mm I would think was rubbish.  Obviously a 5-shot group is not the same beast as a 14-shot group, and if the best a rifle could produce was 5 shots in the blue I would not use it on live quarry.

Ultrastu certainly seems to have that BSA sorted.  Now that’s a group.

that second group looks great, but i cant believe you you think 18mm isn't suitable for hunting though, and 12mm can't be classed as rubish.

Edited by Mice!
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These are my knockdowns 

Freshly painted for a sesh out to 100 yds with my fx .last week .

The killsize  holes are adjustable as above.

Ive had them years, hit them with a hmr the other week (at 100 yds ) and still going strong .

They are about £20 each but worth it .

I bought them to practice for hft comps .

They helped my win a couple of series. 

Today they live in my 25 yd garden for the kids to plink at .

IMG_20190526_094707.jpg

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1 hour ago, Ultrastu said:

Thing is with group size is .we can all get hung up on it. But does it really matter ? 

Well unless your shooting bench rest comps where 2mm left of centre can be the difference between  win or loose. Then id say not so much .

Hft is shot out to 45 yds and they dont have targets smaller than 40 mm at 45 yds .and i think the smallest target is 15 mm up to 20 yds. Hunting - when persuing quarry its rare to shoot from a bench rested position, even prone shots (for me at least ) make up a small percentage of hunting shots .

So rock steady is rarely guaranteed. 

So your never gonna be able to place your shot exactly to the mm where you want when hunting (and thats without taking into account all the other factors like. Wind , range , elevation, the animal its self moving. Etc etc .

The old adage of 1 inch kill zone and all pellets inside it is still a good gauge of an accurate shot .

I use my knock down targets .with 15 /25 /38 mm kill zones .place them out at random ranges (with out knowing them ) and shoot using my best skills to judge range and wind etc .

If i drop them then im very happy .

As gun and man are in harmony 

Thanks UltraStu that has made me feel better, for some reason I had 55 yards in my head for hft! :lol: didn't know about the 40mm size targets either, in reality I won't have too many opportunities to do hft but nice to know based on what I've found so far and what you've said I feel a bit more confident in having a go sooner rather than later. 

You're right about the hunting side as well, I know all my distances in my garden but it's a different ball game when on an open field. 

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1 hour ago, Ttfjlc said:

You're right about the hunting side as well, I know all my distances in my garden but it's a different ball game when on an open field. 

a good indication is keeping your magnification the same, i tend to be on 8 or 10 times depending on light, so if you shoot at something in the garden about an inch at a set distance it will look the same in the woods, i use the parallax on the scope as well to help judge distance.

at least your using.177 so the drop isn't as much as .22

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4 hours ago, Mice! said:

a good indication is keeping your magnification the same, i tend to be on 8 or 10 times depending on light, so if you shoot at something in the garden about an inch at a set distance it will look the same in the woods, i use the parallax on the scope as well to help judge distance.

at least your using.177 so the drop isn't as much as .22

Sorry Mice forgot to say I have started using the parallax as a guide, this has certainly made things that bit easier. :good:

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The OP asked what group size people would be happy with at a given range and I gave my personal preference.  Group size, preferably 10 shots or more, is an important indicator of whether you can place shots accurately and consistently.  

The idea that sub 12 quarry has a one inch kill zone is fantasy. The recognised method of killing a pigeon sub 12 is a head shot, and you certainly don’t have an inch to play with.  Not with squirrels or bunnies either really.  

So I wouldn’t shoot beyond a range I could group 10 - 12 mm, and I think 5p at 25 yd is not good.

It annoys me when I see guys like Si Pittaway take a stupidly long shot at a bunny, then look into camera and say something like: I think that just clipped its ear.  

Which to my mind plays straight into the hands of team Packham. 

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I virtually never aim for the head on a pigeon .

Its such a small target that hardley ever stops moving .

Why would you risk shooting its beak off when there are more reliable and much bigger kill zones on it .? 

Also the primary organ on a bird  isnt its brain.so a head shot will result in loads of flapping and spinning around and that with a perfect brain shot .

The main organ is the heart and thats the one to disrupt and target .its also large - along with the lungs .

A shot to the back or upper chest cavity (which includes the neck area ) is massivley superior in every way to a head shot. 

And that area is much bigger than 1 inch .

A adult rabbit has a big head and again the kill zone on the side on skull is bigger than 1 inch .A squirrel  is a touch smaller probably  around a 20 mm zone

Still lots to aim at .

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