410s capability patterns and range

[lancer425]

I have been working on .410s semi seriously about a year now, i dont have a press but borrowed a Mec 600 and i made my own RTO an adjustable one.

Guns i used were a Spanish single I have and i borrowed the folowing baikal single  Izh 18 a Laurona SxS and a Mosberg 500 pump none were multi chokes.

I tried some factory eley  expres fioochi winchesters  and  some Reloads vv110  SP3,  2400 tried various  powder  and shot weights and to be frank, even the better patterns were at best 25 yards on anything that had a pulse,.

  I just did not see the alternative game crunching capability some i know and see on the net claim. and i did try i really did.

So why the post, ?

Simple . Those who use the .410, any advice on chokes  loads shot sizes and any exact load data for loads that stand out as anything over this 20 to 25 yard performance i have achieved so far. ?

 

Edited May 11, 2019 by lancer425

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Have a search back through Neutron619s posts on the subject, we played around with various loads and different chokes in his small bore guns, you should get some good info from there.

[lancer425]

Ok

[Ultrastu]

I shoot .410 and find that 20 yds is optimal .25 yds ok .30 yds is a bit of a push .35 yds is too far the pattern has failed .

With a wide variety of factory loads .up to my current 19 grm of 5.5 shot .

30 yds is my max and 20 is my ideal .

[gotgcoalman]

haven't got around to patterning on paper yet.

Still working on the sub/slightly supersonic load trade off  through a hushpowered .410.

penetration/drop at  40 yard tests  have made me go back to 12gr of sp3.

SO.....

targets on a dirt bank for visual reference (and a safe back stop)

20/25 yards=clean kill on a rabbit torso sized drink bottle filled with water. (many holes)

Push out to 40 yards and the spread was terrible. Again only visual  reference as to the pattern.

12gr Sp3,19 gram #5 Cx2000 primer.

Barrel at the business end measures 9.9mm using Aldi digi vernier.

[Walker570]

My load in a 3 inch Fiocchi case is based on that listed by Folkeston Engineering and at 35yrds with the full choke tubes in it throws a neat pattern of 30 inches, this is fibre wad by the way.

Penetration was more than adequate on the hard plywood target.  I have now used this load for three seasons and I average over 20 days driven partridge and pheasant and have not felt undergunned in any way dropping birds cleanly out to 35 - 40yrds and these shots have been witnessed and commented on. I shoot a 410 exclusively.  I usually shoot 20 or more driven days a year and also use the same load for pigeon decoying.

Obviously at 20yrds the pattern is pretty tight and you do have to shoot accuartely but I find the full choke tubes work best. Having said that I do advise doing a bit of work with diferent chokes as they all vary.  I shoot a Yilditz O/U with 30 inch barrels.

[lancer425]

1 hour ago, gotgcoalman said:

haven't got around to patterning on paper yet.

Still working on the sub/slightly supersonic load trade off  through a hushpowered .410.

penetration/drop at  40 yard tests  have made me go back to 12gr of sp3.

SO.....

targets on a dirt bank for visual reference (and a safe back stop)

20/25 yards=clean kill on a rabbit torso sized drink bottle filled with water. (many holes)

Push out to 40 yards and the spread was terrible. Again only visual  reference as to the pattern.

12gr Sp3,19 gram #5 Cx2000 primer.

Barrel at the business end measures 9.9mm using Aldi digi vernier.

This was how i found it  patterns were overall less than acceptable much over 25 yards and if you picked the best pattern a Eng 7 1/2 18 gram buffered load it was scrapping in a 30 yard load max.  The density was clumpy and patchy if you conected a bird with one of those clumps you would have been killing no doubt about it, but patterns were not that reliable and the percentage deviation on same loads was more than i have seen in other bores and chamber lengths.  best on percentage was the half oz 7 1/2  up to about 20 or  25 yards max. The 3 inch loads offered the best looking longer range  patterns but lost more of the pellets i suppose to bore contact and slowing down the load to try and get neat patterns was counter productive in that it was better slower but not as big of an improvement you would get with a bigger bore.

 And we are talking percentages here not pure pellet count.  Its all pointing to 7s or 71/2s and try and get them patterning well, i did as a kid use fourlongs in 4s in a full choked webley five shot bolt action, these i think worked well as a slow load gave tightish  patterns and the bigger shot had enough clout to stop a rabbit at 35 yards through that full choke, i also remember that gun was tight in the middle of the pattern , i was struggling to get this with any of the loads or guns i have tried this past twelve months.

I dont think the .410 is a total flop and it has real potential if you could get it patterning, but achieving patterns that is even patterns with no big voids is dificult, if you got a .410 that does this for heavens sake dont sell it. After comparing the guns i came up with the conclusion my spanish full choke single was better than anything else i compared it to, so will hang onto that for now. But i will say i did not see the more open chokes doing better, which reading sugested 1c or mod chokes were less pattchy on patterns, all i found was so few pellets and just as pattchy .

I did wonder about 3/8 oz of steel 5s see what they looked like for patterns i realise i would be dropping around 60 pellets compared to a half oz of lead 7 1/2s but i thought might have more pellets of equaly lethal pellets in a tidy usable pattern.  Way to go with the .410 if you want real performance would be HW15 or 18 but is outside my plans with the .410.

[lancer425]

3 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

My load in a 3 inch Fiocchi case is based on that listed by Folkeston Engineering and at 35yrds with the full choke tubes in it throws a neat pattern of 30 inches, this is fibre wad by the way.

Penetration was more than adequate on the hard plywood target.  I have now used this load for three seasons and I average over 20 days driven partridge and pheasant and have not felt undergunned in any way dropping birds cleanly out to 35 - 40yrds and these shots have been witnessed and commented on. I shoot a 410 exclusively.  I usually shoot 20 or more driven days a year and also use the same load for pigeon decoying.

Obviously at 20yrds the pattern is pretty tight and you do have to shoot accuartely but I find the full choke tubes work best. Having said that I do advise doing a bit of work with diferent chokes as they all vary.  I shoot a Yilditz O/U with 30 inch barrels.

Thats interesting i did no fibre wad tests but did think about making some maylar wrapped and buffered fibre waded ammo as my next tests.  Now you have me interested, and could be a solution, the patterns i have been getting with plas wads and the TPs wads were no way capable of 30 yards never mind 40. As mentioned the 3 inch buffered load was best and that was the most pellet count in 30 inch and though a bit patchy could have been passable i suppose.  I think i expected too much and certainly from factory or a first try at real pattern testing the .410, the difference between the .410 and the 20ga is huge and closing that gap in performance down looks to my way of thinking at this stage Impossible .

[Walker570]

Myself and friends who also shoot 410s a game birds regularly have come to the conclusion that the 410 can vary considerably barrel to barrel, choke to choke.  I have afriend who shoots open chokes in his 410 with the same result I get with full chokes.  If I use the #4 choke in my gun then I am down to 20-25 yards so I have never ever fitted it.  I did put in the #2 chokes yesterday on some clays on a similated day and if I did my job the gun was breaking clays out to 30 yards no problem.

[lancer425]

I get the barrel thing, we ran around half a dozen 10 bores mostly gold 10s and SP10s and the difference was noticeable with an identical load , tried varrious chokes and the Better patterning guns still were the better patterns . Yet did a similar round of testing with 4 12s 2 SX3s and a gold and a maxus all invx plus and the difference was much closer.  I think we could have run the same test with four other 12s and shown a bigger discrepancy, barrels are different and why i like to pattern everything if i can find the time.

Going to get some felt wads give them a try. I have a couple of wad punches i could try cutting a few see how they do for a start.

[Uilleachan]

I'm no aficionado but I have messed around a bit looking at different .410 loads using a variety of shot weights and wad types. 

Using plastic wads, nickel plated 7 shot, both SP3 & H110 roll crimp, in both my 3' Lincoln fixed 1/4 & full and 2.5" single shot converted rook gun fixed 3/4  patterned at 30y, I can see where the claims of 35+y come from, IMO, with the right load, 35+y is doable with full choke out of the lincoln, full but not overly so and 30+y out of the rookies 3/4, I say that because I've had patterns I considered on the tight side for the tested 30y. So with those loads (I'd need to find my note book, but all those loads came from C&G SP3 & .410 data) in mind I'd be happy out to 35y and 30y respectively if I felt I was up to the job.

The long shot then, the 35y to 40y clean kill? with the right load in the right circumstances in the right hands, I can see it. 

Factory loads by comparison, haven't tried fiocchi or hull HP as I can't get them locally, tend to perform poorly past 25y & 20y respectively. 

I've since had good results on informal croft clay bashing, 20 to 25y with the kids using FE data and fibre components, although patterning is yet to happen that load seems and feels a good round. Using eley factory 3" fibre (18g?) on the same day we weren't hitting much. 

It's a fickle caliber that needs much more attention to detail, in every respect. . 

[Continental Shooter]

I am looking into the .410 as well for the wee man clay sessions (and hopefully some pigeon one soon) and since i don't buy cartridges, i was looking to reload my own.

I always thought 15 yds was the max range (possibly it was when my gampa tested it back in the 40-60's) but my network of technician and passionate users of this wonderful wee caliber agree that 30 yds is very possible range and killing at 35+ yds is only be possible through lots of testing and customisation (and money)

I am obviously not aware of what loads have been tested here and what the patterns looked like, but i have my heart set on these load with IMR4227:

410/76 FIO615 1,15 x 19  or 410/76 NSI686 1,15 x 20 in any combination till i found the best combo)

NSI 686 seem to guarantee better burning and lower pressure 

Alternatively, i'd try SP3 1,10 x 18 - 18.5g 

Many Thanks,

 

 

[lancer425]

I think its down to the load just like any other gun, but they are a fussy gun the .410 i am sure they will do more than the 25s i was doing but not much more. this video is about right i think, and i will be trying to get a good load at 30 yards and stretch it just a little in the field now and again. i wonder what the 19 gram 6 load is i bet its SP3 now then.

 

[lancer425]

3 minutes ago, Continental Shooter said:

I am looking into the .410 as well for the wee man clay sessions (and hopefully some pigeon one soon) and since i don't buy cartridges, i was looking to reload my own.

I always thought 15 yds was the max range (possibly it was when my gampa tested it back in the 40-60's) but my network of technician and passionate users of this wonderful wee caliber agree that 30 yds is very possible range and killing at 35+ yds is only be possible through lots of testing and customisation (and money)

I am obviously not aware of what loads have been tested here and what the patterns looked like, but i have my heart set on these load with IMR4227:

410/76 FIO615 1,15 x 19  or 410/76 NSI686 1,15 x 20 in any combination till i found the best combo)

NSI 686 seem to guarantee better burning and lower pressure 

Alternatively, i'd try SP3 1,10 x 18 - 18.5g 

Many Thanks,

 

 

I am going to go felt next wrap and buffer and use my spanish single its the only .410 i got here at moment and i am not borrowing them again. My single was one of the better patterning guns so i am working with this gun from now on.

 Not even looking at subsonics or going anywhere near them, i dont see the energy thereby the time you up the pellet size to get the crunch you lost the pattern density its just too small a pellet count even with 20 gram of 4s range is 20  or 25 yards max  fine pigeons into decoys but anything a bit on the limit its a cripple i am just not going there myself YOMV .

. I am patterning to look for best load at 32 yards , i will go further and closer when i sort best load out but for working load out i am going 32 yards.

Continental shooter i have a few patterns on my old phone i kind of use as a camera mini pc if you get me but most were Factory and proved little other than the obvious factory .410s are average i think one  might find a load that works but i think if you do you best do the lottery. 

[Walker570]

3 hours ago, lancer425 said:

I get the barrel thing, we ran around half a dozen 10 bores mostly gold 10s and SP10s and the difference was noticeable with an identical load , tried varrious chokes and the Better patterning guns still were the better patterns . Yet did a similar round of testing with 4 12s 2 SX3s and a gold and a maxus all invx plus and the difference was much closer.  I think we could have run the same test with four other 12s and shown a bigger discrepancy, barrels are different and why i like to pattern everything if i can find the time.

Going to get some felt wads give them a try. I have a couple of wad punches i could try cutting a few see how they do for a start.

I am so happy with the F E wads I do not see me changing anyhting.  For me they do the job if I do.  The wads from F E are not so expensive.  If you want a few to try pm me an address.

[lancer425]

53 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

I am so happy with the F E wads I do not see me changing anyhting.  For me they do the job if I do.  The wads from F E are not so expensive.  If you want a few to try pm me an address.

Kind offer but i will be ok, i just scrounged a few off a mate he got them from hull a private bloke who made them. I will have a look at FE certainly.  I use a lot of felt wad ammo in 12 10 20 and 8 bore with lead bismuth and copper i am going to wrap and buffer these .410s if ever there was a round that the shot neded love its the .410.

 Notice on that video the plaswad in the flashback to the .410vs 12 video. dust and shot in cup taking the wad to the pattern board, felt will stop all that. Yep Felt is way i am going thanks for your help appreciate it.

[dipper]

Be very careful adding buffer to a 1410.The pressures already right up there.The way to go is get the barrels regulated by a top barrel man .with one load.A slight over bore might help.Dont think anyone’s gone down that route.Wouldent be cheap.

[motty]

The .410 is a small load gun, so that will mean very few pellets. Anyone advocating using size 5s or similar is missing the point. Size 5 is a high pheasant shot size. I think 7.5 and even 8s are the right size in this calibre. 30 - 35 yards are then far more achievable, pattern wise. Penetration wise, pigeons and pheasants would be easily killable.

[London Best]

Motty hits the nail on the head. 

I have used .410 for many years and small shot is the obvious way to go. Keep the pattern dense. I use only 2.5 inch 14gram loads. Never bigger than 7 shot. Plenty of energy in 7’s even for pheasants or mallard when we could use lead. I find 14gram of no. 9 shot is very effective on pigeons/crows out to 30 yards. More pellets per load than 28 gram (1oz) of no. 6.  Multiple strikes. Has to work. 

[lancer425]

What you to say makes complete sense to me, The wad column is long on a .410 and on a 3 inch 18 19 or 20 gram load its super long for bore chamber size.  2.5 inch of 7s 71/2 or as motty says 8s even will help patterns, but its the penetration that’s troubling me, pressures going to be up there as payload goes up Speed as to suffer and is exactly why i just dont get the subsonic thing at all.  I accept speed is not critical but you need 1200FPS area if you can on anything with a pulse.

Buffer has to happen how i see it, the gaps in my patterns ok just factory and thrown together reloads with nothing but following the data gone into them. They just did not have whats needed how i saw it.

 The Dave carie vid more or less stated 30 yards or a tad more perhaps but i think after that its a crippler in my view anyway.  The task is getting a real nice even reliable pattern and if it means dropping a bit of powder charge out or changing powder to get lower pressures for same speed , to run buffer i will do that. I seen enough with lead and buffer to know its the way i want to go.

Do they do gas seals for .410s ?

is SP3 still best on heavy loads like 20 gram or some other powder. ?

In 1/2 oz or 5/8ths what is lowest pressure powder for best velocity?

Winchester still do those compression formed cases.?

Anybody tried hotter primers.?

Closure? .410s look to be a round you have to compromise a little with, what is the view on Crimp or RTO is there a significant difference with .410s?

[London Best]

Can’t answer you questions as I don’t reload shotgun. I just use factory loads and Express work well in my gun. Eley fourlongs seem to be a waste of time. The best I ever tried were some old (really old) stock I bought at a game fair about 1982/3. They were labelled “Browning 35 power”. I think the 35 was supposed to refer to the range, maybe?  They were half oz of no.7,s and were very effective. I have never managed to find any since.

[lancer425]

5 hours ago, London Best said:

Can’t answer you questions as I don’t reload shotgun. I just use factory loads and Express work well in my gun. Eley fourlongs seem to be a waste of time. The best I ever tried were some old (really old) stock I bought at a game fair about 1982/3. They were labelled “Browning 35 power”. I think the 35 was supposed to refer to the range, maybe?  They were half oz of no.7,s and were very effective. I have never managed to find any since.

Intreagued i did a google search .

[Walker570]

I did shoot some Hull High Pheasant 410 factory last year to build up some cases for reloading. Those cases do load well.  These where #6s but hey now do #7s as well.

I have also used some factory Fiocchi 3 inch in #8s again for the cases and again found these to kill just as well if not better than the #7s. Al of my reloads for the coming season will be #7s ... my attitude is, if it ain't broke then don't try to mend it.  It is great to know there are a few other people around who don't run with the idea the 410 is a kids gun.  Put the bird in the pattern at sensible range then it will do the job.   Have fun.

[lancer425]

Anybody tried the rto & fibre 14 gram 2.5 inch load with ramshot enforcer powder, that is listed on FES web page? I have about 1/4 oz of enforcer and i was thinking of trying it, but thought i would ask first, see if anyone had used it.

[Farmboy91]

Been watching this with interest, only brought my first .410 at the start of the year, a single barreled poachers job, cant hit the broad side of a barn with it and before the faff with the GL I did think about treating myself to a nice o/u. 

Up until now I just been using the eley 14g trap load, mainly because its the biggest load I can find crammed into a 2 1/2" case.