So what’s the back story on this.

[henry d]

8 minutes ago, ph5172 said:

truth is little Johnny likes being a toe rag and doesn’t want to change. 

No that is a broad brushstroke that does no-one any favours, its like antis saying shooters are all bloodthirsty killers that could go all Dunblane at a moments notice. Absolute tosh.

[ph5172]

24 minutes ago, henry d said:

No that is a broad brushstroke that does no-one any favours, its like antis saying shooters are all bloodthirsty killers that could go all Dunblane at a moments notice. Absolute tosh.

Ok. So riddle me this. 

Why does the court see little Johnny on multiple occasions?

on each occasion Johnny is changing, he is in counselling along with a nice evening course and a few other schemes paid for by the tax payer and Mrs miggins who will be out of hospital next week after he bashed her in. 

2 months later little Johnny is stood again on his 5 account but he is changing because he has all these interventions in place and is doing really well - until next month and he does the same. 

But it’s brcause he is under privileged!!!

 

occasionly  you see bigger Johnny who is also changing. Johnny has signed up to the army and needs a chance - 22 years later Johnny retires with a pension and settles in another town. 

Bigger johnny was also underprivileged 

Even bigger Johnny went on a yts plumbers course as part of an intervention, he is now a half decent plumber working for himself....

[islandgun]

2 hours ago, ph5172 said:

Ok. So riddle me this. 

Why does the court see little Johnny on multiple occasions?

on each occasion Johnny is changing, he is in counselling along with a nice evening course and a few other schemes paid for by the tax payer and Mrs miggins who will be out of hospital next week after he bashed her in. 

2 months later little Johnny is stood again on his 5 account but he is changing because he has all these interventions in place and is doing really well - until next month and he does the same. 

But it’s brcause he is under privileged!!!

 

occasionly  you see bigger Johnny who is also changing. Johnny has signed up to the army and needs a chance - 22 years later Johnny retires with a pension and settles in another town. 

Bigger johnny was also underprivileged 

Even bigger Johnny went on a yts plumbers course as part of an intervention, he is now a half decent plumber working for himself....

Sadly, Regents park police have taken his tools and now his only option is to become a drug dealer. obviously not as well paid as a plumber..... hey ho

[Scully]

I can only say it again.....'Gun No 6' on iplayer. 🙂

[Westward]

6 hours ago, henry d said:

 Most of the YP I am dealing with will have some sort of childhood trauma or toxic stress in mid primary or earlier that eventually finds its way out in early to mid puberty.

I also know quite a bit about childhood trauma thanks very much and there weren't any do-gooders around though back then. Yet here I am, clean record, never been involved with drugs or crime, I've never abused my children or anyone else's, never been violent, never been treated for mental health, had a decent career and have 3 successful grown up sons.

As my wife frequently says about some of the kids having babies that my daughter in law supports in her job: "They should be sterilised right now before they go one to have more burdens on the taxpayer."

[henry d]

7 hours ago, ph5172 said:

Ok. So riddle me this. 

Why does the court see little Johnny on multiple occasions?

on each occasion Johnny is changing, he is in counselling along with a nice evening course and a few other schemes paid for by the tax payer and Mrs miggins who will be out of hospital next week after he bashed her in. 

2 months later little Johnny is stood again on his 5 account but he is changing because he has all these interventions in place and is doing really well - until next month and he does the same. 

But it’s brcause he is under privileged!!!

 

occasionly  you see bigger Johnny who is also changing. Johnny has signed up to the army and needs a chance - 22 years later Johnny retires with a pension and settles in another town. 

Bigger johnny was also underprivileged 

Even bigger Johnny went on a yts plumbers course as part of an intervention, he is now a half decent plumber working for himself....

So by the same principle we have someone who comes out of the forces and has seen his friends fried inside his ship, or limbs torn off by mines or other incendiary devices and eventually returns to civi street and cannot adjust. This guy is a hero but is a substance abuser, cos he can't keep a job down he begs or steals just to get by. Obviously this person is a wee scrote and would never amount to anything because his parents and theirs to were scrotes and that's all that they could ever amount to? Yet another may, with help, get back to some sort of normality and not be a burden on the state. Neither of them are different in their trauma, but for some inexplicable reason one can get sorted and the other cannot. Who among you is good enough to stone the one that didn't cope with the trauma?

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Henry, do you accept that not every "scrote" can be helped?

You and your type cannot possibly help every "scrote" so how do you differentiate or rank them in terms of being worth saving?

I would suggest many of these "scrotes" are not worthy of being helped.

 

I have used your chosen term!

Edited May 18, 2019 by TIGHTCHOKE
Explanation.

[henry d]

1 hour ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Henry, do you accept that not every "scrote" can be helped?

You and your type cannot possibly help every "scrote" so how do you differentiate or rank them in terms of being worth saving? What type is that?

I would suggest many of these "scrotes" are not worthy of being helped.

 

I have used your chosen term!

Of course I do, just had one lad who gradually had less engagement with all the different agencies involved with him.

Young people are generally identified as having changed their behaviour over time or have come to the attention of the police, social services, their parents ask for help, or they self identify as needing help. They aren`t differentiate or ranked, they get help from either single services or multiple agencies and everyone of them is worth saving.

You can suggest what you like but they are.

Yeah I noticed that, thanks for pointing it out though.

The problem lies with people who don`t work with young people as they do not see things from their perspective, even some teachers don`t see it from their perspective. A YP is not paying attention in class and is under performing, some would just say "Pay attention in school, why can`t you focus?" yet there could be many reasons why they are detached from the class work, bad parenting, younger siblings crying at night, bad neighbours, hormonal changes, body clock changes. Interventions that help them change these things can help them focus, but people who do not work with YP don`t understand and just say "Bloody teenagers..." because they do not have the facts about that persons life and so they just judge them try them and condemn them. If you go to the doctor with a problem you don`t tell them what you think the problem is unless it is really obvious, same goes for other professions. Just looking at all the posts above there seem to be a lot of social/youth work professionals as they have all the answers. Not one has mentioned the year on year lack of funding for youth work provision, social work provision shrinking back to absorb other provision as there is less money coming in for them, and they moan about YP failing at school, increase in crime, yadda yadda and the answer is they aren`t worthy of saving, we can write them off as a loss. What a wonderful world!

[ph5172]

So why with all theses interventions do you, by and large see the same faces in the revolving door.

They have the same interventions as others, applied by the same people to the same set of standards yet they work for some and not for others.

From what you are saying no one understands YP yet we pump a fair few resources into trying to sort the many problems of the few with minimal effect - from what it appears the whole youth intervention (or intervention) needs a complete overhaul and requires a new set of people to intervene as evidently its not working?

I am all for helping those that want to be helped, and i am sure many do but you must understand that there are also a fair few who just dont - a classic example was yesterday we saw a rather pleasant girl -

hello Miss X hows things with you, what school you at now? 

X Innit

Oh right is it any good, what you up to?

No its XXXX

Oh ok, but its got to be better than the one you were at before?

No that was XXXX as well and everyone who works there are XXXX all teachers are.

Oh ok, so what you doing for the rest of the day?

Nothing just some XXXX i suppose

This individual had extra tuition, a 1-1 worker, trips out, multiple pushes up the ladder and after all that - nothing!

 

What do you suggest? Sometimes people just cannot be helped no matter ho hard you try - sad but true and sometimes yes you do have to write those off

Most reasonable people would have rather seen that time, effort and limited resources pushed into someone who wanted to be helped - of which i can give multiple examples

 

Sometimes you just know

 

Edited May 20, 2019 by ph5172

[henry d]

39 minutes ago, ph5172 said:

So why with all theses interventions do you, by and large see the same faces in the revolving door. I don`t and it is working so I don`t see them multiple times, I do meet with some just to check how they are and letting them know that the support they were given is still there for them to access should they wish/need to access it.

They have the same interventions as others, applied by the same people to the same set of standards yet they work for some and not for others.

From what you are saying no one understands YP yet we pump a fair few resources into trying to sort the many problems of the few with minimal effect - from what it appears the whole youth intervention (or intervention) needs a complete overhaul and requires a new set of people to intervene as evidently its not working? Nah, don`t agree, we are seeing well over 80% of YP who have been through 1-2-1 work with us going on to sustained positive destinations. One lad was destined not to go far as he was disruptive in school but is now 16 months into his apprenticeship and has finally been diagnosed as dyslexic (and is getting specialist help for it), hence his problems in a school environment. Another who was also struggling now holds down a retail job and is doing a lot better than at school and has her own flat now, we did some work with her over 3 years ago and she is still out there benefitting society. etc etc

<SNIPED>

What do you suggest? Sometimes people just cannot be helped no matter ho hard you try - sad but true and sometimes yes you do have to write those off The basis for youthwork is that the YP participates voluntarily, so it is not us writing them off, they just do not engage and we cannot force them. That is the reason you get the quote from the young girl you mentioned, she has to go to school and rebels against it, but with youth work that isn`t the case and a YP can see that there is no power or control from the YW so they see the YW as an equal and not someone who has an overt agenda.

Most reasonable people would have rather seen that time, effort and limited resources pushed into someone who wanted to be helped - of which i can give multiple examples See above regarding voluntary participation.

 

Sometimes you just know

 

 

[ph5172]

Henry, thanks for clarifying some points and im glad that you are seeing positive results.

 

Nothing more satisfying than seeing someone stand on their own 2 feet and prove people (sometimes me) wrong

[old man]

On 18/05/2019 at 09:04, henry d said:

Of course I do, just had one lad who gradually had less engagement with all the different agencies involved with him.

Young people are generally identified as having changed their behaviour over time or have come to the attention of the police, social services, their parents ask for help, or they self identify as needing help. They aren`t differentiate or ranked, they get help from either single services or multiple agencies and everyone of them is worth saving.

You can suggest what you like but they are.

Yeah I noticed that, thanks for pointing it out though.

The problem lies with people who don`t work with young people as they do not see things from their perspective, even some teachers don`t see it from their perspective. A YP is not paying attention in class and is under performing, some would just say "Pay attention in school, why can`t you focus?" yet there could be many reasons why they are detached from the class work, bad parenting, younger siblings crying at night, bad neighbours, hormonal changes, body clock changes. Interventions that help them change these things can help them focus, but people who do not work with YP don`t understand and just say "Bloody teenagers..." because they do not have the facts about that persons life and so they just judge them try them and condemn them. If you go to the doctor with a problem you don`t tell them what you think the problem is unless it is really obvious, same goes for other professions. Just looking at all the posts above there seem to be a lot of social/youth work professionals as they have all the answers. Not one has mentioned the year on year lack of funding for youth work provision, social work provision shrinking back to absorb other provision as there is less money coming in for them, and they moan about YP failing at school, increase in crime, yadda yadda and the answer is they aren`t worthy of saving, we can write them off as a loss. What a wonderful world!

Whilst I appreciate your point of view, that's all well and good as long as they understand that most of life requires conformity within society?

Not sure they are made to understand that at any level?

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, henry d said:

 

So why is it that some of the latest figures (2018) show that of all those in custody over 60% will have served time for committing a prior offence? 

[henry d]

2 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

So why is it that some of the latest figures (2018) show that of all those in custody over 60% will have served time for committing a prior offence? 

Because they didn't want or get support at school?

Unaddressed MH issues?

Edited May 20, 2019 by henry d

[henry d]

4 hours ago, old man said:

Whilst I appreciate your point of view, that's all well and good as long as they understand that most of life requires conformity within society?

Not sure they are made to understand that at any level?

Really? When was the last time you spent an hour or more speaking with a group of YP?

[Rewulf]

18 minutes ago, henry d said:

Because they didn't want or get support at school?

So how do you help someone who doesnt want help ?
There are plenty of people who have committed horrific crimes who did very well at school.
There are also plenty who had a terrible childhood, did badly at school, but went on to do well in adulthood.
Neither of which 'wanted' or perhaps 'needed' that help or support.

You blamed poverty to start with, now you blame poor schooling and inadequate oversight by parents and teachers, identifying which kids need support?

The thread started off with the police giving themselves a high 5 on twitter for bagging a few handymans tools in a 'weapons sweep' and raiding a charity shop of sharps.
Whilst a couple of streets away the local 'man dem' are running up the road with 12 inch zombie knives disembowling each other.
So is it down to 'poverty' or is down to childhood 'trauma' that appears to be extremely prevalent among a certain demographic ?

You might say its a combination of these things.

I will say its mainly driven by a culture of violence , perpetuated through 'music' , tribalism, and the unwillingness of authority to tackle it hard, for fear of offending a minority.
Listening to mainstream radio, and so called underground sound, the lyrics are peppered with incitement to violence, it needs banning.
Nothing of the sort is going to happen of course , as the 'right on' people who control what goes over the air wouldnt dare offend the artistes.

When the news cannot even report of the rising tide of violence in our more ethnically diverse cities, what chance do we have to address it ?
The police commanders more worried about their careers, and bobbies on the street employed for their PC credentials, and gender studies degree.
 

5 minutes ago, henry d said:

Really? When was the last time you spent an hour or more speaking with a group of YP?

You see how condescending you get ?
How do you know what he did or does ?

Most people on here have children, and grand children.
Believe it or not Henry , people beside yourself have experience of 'YP'

Do not judge people on their opinion, just because its different to your own.
You know nothing of others lives and experience.

[old man]

2 hours ago, henry d said:

Really? When was the last time you spent an hour or more speaking with a group of YP?

Mm, could that be the reason why so many seem unable to fit in to society at large?

As for speaking with YP, I find some  a pleasure to be with and some who I would avoid a second time , just like the rest of society?

Much the same as they feel about me I suppose?

 

 

Edited May 20, 2019 by old man

[12gauge82]

3 hours ago, henry d said:

Because they didn't want or get support at school?

Unaddressed MH issues?

And yet YPs get every intervention and chance going before they're banged up, Im certainly not rubbishing your efforts, you must have the patience of a Saint to work with them and I'm certainly not saying that intervention shouldn't be tried, but once it's failed and make no mistake, as the statistics prove, it fails very often, for serious offenders I say lock them up and warehouse them cheaply, no longer should innocent lives be put in danger by releasing dangerous people back on the streets who are likely to reoffend. 

[henry d]

12 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

And yet YPs get every intervention and chance going before they're banged up, (Unfortunately a lot don`t and that is why they end up in jail or YOI) Im certainly not rubbishing your efforts, you must have the patience of a Saint to work with them (Patience isn`t required, they know within a few sessions that you aren`t there to control them) and I'm certainly not saying that intervention shouldn't be tried, but once it's failed and make no mistake, as the statistics prove, it fails very often, (Again a lot of intervention work does work, and work well as the YP don`t end up institutionalised, unfortunately our stats do not get used by politicians. When a YP ends up in YOI or jail it is because of a range of problems, not that the interventions didn`t work, it cannot be as simple as that, no complex system is.) for serious offenders I say lock them up and warehouse them cheaply, no longer should innocent lives be put in danger by releasing dangerous people back on the streets who are likely to reoffend. 

 

13 hours ago, old man said:

Mm, could that be the reason why so many seem unable to fit in to society at large? 

They are a part of that society and they too should have some control over it and not be forced to fit into something that is not of their doing, time stretches on forward not back the way, they have a right to change the society that they will inherit in the near future so that it fits them not the other way round.

Edited May 21, 2019 by henry d
typo

[Gordon R]

henry d - whilst I find it difficult to accept some of what you say, I have to draw a line here. Do knife wielding thugs have a right to change society to one where guns and knifes are perfectly fine?

They have a right to change society for the better, not the worse.

[Rewulf]

41 minutes ago, henry d said:

(Again a lot of intervention work does work, and work well as the YP don`t end up institutionalised, unfortunately our stats do not get used by politicians. When a YP ends up in YOI or jail it is because of a range of problems, not that the interventions didn`t work, it cannot be as simple as that, no complex system is.)

Obviously the interventions didnt work, there fore their lives spiralled out of control and got them in jail.
What are the range of problems ? The fact that they CHOSE criminal behaviour, rather than trying to dig themselves out of the rut that quite possibly through no fault of their own, they ended up in ?
You make it all sound like none of them are to blame for the state of their lives, its somehow societies fault for not helping them, and if they DID get help and support, and still messed up, its societies fault still, because they didnt get. ENOUGH help!

People are responsible for their own actions, if I end up swigging white lightening in a shop doorway, who shall I blame for that ?
Is it the governments fault , maybe I didnt get support ?
Blame drugs, alcohol, a messy divorce, maybe my mental health went south ?
The buck stops at YOU.

We live in a society, that seems to have abandoned self responsibility and accountability, and along with that , self respect.
And with no self respect, no respect for others as a consequence.

Rather than coddling 'YP' we should get back to the basics, teach them life skills, respect for others, and respect for themselves should come naturally.
This nannying has produced spoilt , petulant, and in some cases , downright nasty kids, that sometimes turn out to be nasty adults, with a high tally of innocent victims.
Sorting this out can start at the beginning, stop the PC nanny state B.S..
Or it can start at the end, with a list of victims, and more prisons.
 

[henry d]

3 hours ago, Gordon R said:

henry d - whilst I find it difficult to accept some of what you say, I have to draw a line here. Do knife wielding thugs have a right to change society to one where guns and knifes are perfectly fine?

They have a right to change society for the better, not the worse.

That is not what I am saying, I was talking about YP in general.

[Gordon R]

Not in total agreement, but fair enough.

[old man]

23 hours ago, henry d said:

 

They are a part of that society and they too should have some control over it and not be forced to fit into something that is not of their doing, time stretches on forward not back the way, they have a right to change the society that they will inherit in the near future so that it fits them not the other way round.

Really Henry, making society fit them? A new convention maybe?

Sounds like a grand future?

 

[old man]

22 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Obviously the interventions didnt work, there fore their lives spiralled out of control and got them in jail.
What are the range of problems ? The fact that they CHOSE criminal behaviour, rather than trying to dig themselves out of the rut that quite possibly through no fault of their own, they ended up in ?
You make it all sound like none of them are to blame for the state of their lives, its somehow societies fault for not helping them, and if they DID get help and support, and still messed up, its societies fault still, because they didnt get. ENOUGH help!

People are responsible for their own actions, if I end up swigging white lightening in a shop doorway, who shall I blame for that ?
Is it the governments fault , maybe I didnt get support ?
Blame drugs, alcohol, a messy divorce, maybe my mental health went south ?
The buck stops at YOU.

We live in a society, that seems to have abandoned self responsibility and accountability, and along with that , self respect.
And with no self respect, no respect for others as a consequence.

Rather than coddling 'YP' we should get back to the basics, teach them life skills, respect for others, and respect for themselves should come naturally.
This nannying has produced spoilt , petulant, and in some cases , downright nasty kids, that sometimes turn out to be nasty adults, with a high tally of innocent victims.
Sorting this out can start at the beginning, stop the PC nanny state B.S..
Or it can start at the end, with a list of victims, and more prisons.
 

👍